This Once Great Movement Of Ours
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Author Topic: This Once Great Movement Of Ours  (Read 146738 times)
Blair
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« Reply #600 on: November 29, 2020, 07:06:12 AM »

The above actually covers a very important political issue (whether Labour votes for a Brexit Deal) and one where I think there's relative merits to both sides but instead it just becomes another 'big test for Labour' story.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #601 on: November 29, 2020, 10:25:52 AM »

The Observer (which this is despite the misleading web address) is well known as a holdout of many of the most unreconstructed Blairite dinosaurs, some of whom haven't stopped moaning since 2007.
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Blair
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« Reply #602 on: November 29, 2020, 12:29:38 PM »

The Observer (which this is despite the misleading web address) is well known as a holdout of many of the most unreconstructed Blairite dinosaurs, some of whom haven't stopped moaning since 2007.

There's two types of Blairites in the Labour Party & the divide is summed up by looking at those who nominated Jess Phillips & those who went for Lisa Nandy or Keir; this article seems to fall into the first group.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #603 on: November 30, 2020, 08:20:31 AM »

Or more accurately, the Phillips diehards who found both Keir and Lisa too "unreliable".
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #604 on: November 30, 2020, 09:09:31 AM »

Can we file this one under 'nature is healing'?
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GALeftist
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« Reply #605 on: December 03, 2020, 11:42:11 PM »

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/labour-suspends-senior-jvl-official-after-deeply-unpleasant-meeting-1.509331

Looks like Labour suspended a senior Jewish Voice for Labour official, although it's unclear to me what the rationale is. Surely they realize that disciplining a Jewish person for antisemitism is not great optics, right?
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #606 on: December 04, 2020, 10:44:00 AM »

Its happened before.
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Blair
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« Reply #607 on: December 05, 2020, 03:24:02 PM »
« Edited: December 05, 2020, 03:57:16 PM by Blair »

It's concerning that this is one of our target seats; these seats & CLPs don't have the luxury of mine where a 20K majority & a Soviet majority on the Council leaves us with little to do....

I had a long rambling post about the process of suspensions & how much has changed since the EHCR report but decided to delete it and just say this proves why we need a new impartial system & that a lot of the people suspended in the last month seem to be living with the idea that the Labour Party has not changed in the last year, or indeed since the EHCR report came out.
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Blair
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« Reply #608 on: December 05, 2020, 03:56:50 PM »

With a Brexit deal looking likely there is a big row within Labour about how to vote when the deal returns; it's assumed the party will either abstain or vote in favour.

This is the first time in a while where I've seen such disagreement within Labour with virtually every senior figure weighing in; it's all very staged with planted articles, leaks etc etc

But for the first time in years it isn't linked to factional gameplaying or internal politics; just genuine disagreements about the best path for Labour.



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/03/labour-fall-out-over-brexit-boris-johnson-deal

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/04/neil-kinnock-backing-brexit-deal-politically-lethal-for-labour
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Blair
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« Reply #609 on: December 05, 2020, 03:58:57 PM »

I would be interested to know people's thoughts on this.

At first I thought it was obvious we should vote against it, then I drifted towards abstaining on the principle of 'letting them own it' but know I feel that abstaining will just make the party look divided & is avoiding having a fight we need to have.
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #610 on: December 05, 2020, 06:01:09 PM »

Didn't Labour repeatedly vote against the Brexit treaties done by Theresa May? What makes this one different enough to consider abstaining, let alone supporting it?

Did Johnson give Starmer a seat at the table and negotiate it with Labour jointly?

If anything, Labour should vote no to a Tory brexit? (Regardless of whether Johnson or May is PM)
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It's Perro Sanxe wot won it
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« Reply #611 on: December 05, 2020, 06:34:21 PM »
« Edited: December 05, 2020, 06:40:39 PM by Optimistic Democrat »

Didn't Labour repeatedly vote against the Brexit treaties done by Theresa May? What makes this one different enough to consider abstaining, let alone supporting it?

Did Johnson give Starmer a seat at the table and negotiate it with Labour jointly?

If anything, Labour should vote no to a Tory brexit? (Regardless of whether Johnson or May is PM)

It’s pure political posturing. Labour doesn’t want to revive the Brexit debate, that’s why it won’t vote against. But, at the same time, it doesn’t want to share the blame for the consequences of Brexit, so the logical option is to abstain.

The argument to vote for it is basically to make an even stronger “We want to move on from Brexit” statement. Which, in my opinion, isn’t very smart, because even if you look more resolute on Brexit, you’re going to generate unnecessary controversy and have a lot of Remain MPs rebelling, making the party look divided. Also, as I said before, Labour would share the blame with the Tories for the economic damage of the withdrawal.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #612 on: December 05, 2020, 11:34:26 PM »
« Edited: December 05, 2020, 11:46:04 PM by Statilius the Epicurean »

I would be interested to know people's thoughts on this.

At first I thought it was obvious we should vote against it, then I drifted towards abstaining on the principle of 'letting them own it' but know I feel that abstaining will just make the party look divided & is avoiding having a fight we need to have.

My view is that Brexit is crystallised in voters' minds as a referendum issue apart from party politics. There is going to be no "it's turned out badly and Labour can take advantage of it" moment because the obvious rejoinder will always be "we implemented the will of the people " - haggling over it was too hard won't cut through. This isn't a Conservative Party policy. Therefore, considering the electoral landscape, if you're not going to take a principled stand against the issue then you might as well vote to implement it.

I think the arguments for abstaining are premised on an emotional feeling of not wanting to actively enable a policy they've spent years fighting. And that's understandable. But from a tactical perspective the issue was settled in 2019.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #613 on: December 06, 2020, 06:47:24 AM »

I think Labour should abstain myself. I want a deal rather than a no deal.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #614 on: December 06, 2020, 10:49:32 AM »

The media obsessing over how Labour would vote on any deal, before the government has actually produced anything that can be offered to parliament, sums up how they have got their priorities wrong in recent years.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #615 on: December 06, 2020, 11:02:53 AM »

They're obsessing over the deal or lack thereof as well.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #616 on: December 06, 2020, 11:18:22 AM »

Only since about Friday evening, before then it was all "but what will Labour do??"

As if that was *the* most important thing.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #617 on: December 06, 2020, 11:20:43 AM »

Only since about Friday evening, before then it was all "but what will Labour do??"

As if that was *the* most important thing.

Moaning about media coverage is useless without trying to change it. Labour could be doing a lot more here. Perhaps it could promise a Ukraine-style Association Agreement?
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #618 on: December 06, 2020, 11:27:16 AM »
« Edited: December 06, 2020, 11:36:38 AM by CumbrianLeftie »

Only since about Friday evening, before then it was all "but what will Labour do??"

As if that was *the* most important thing.

Moaning about media coverage is useless without trying to change it

Actually concur with that to an extent.

Corbyn of course thought an overwhelmingly hostile media could just be ignored and his grass roots "movement" would carry all before them. This actually wasn't far off working in 2017, but the media (once they had got over the initial shock) simply redoubled their hostility to ever more vicious and unscrupulous levels. Meanwhile the "movement" became increasingly inward looking and preoccupied with internal politicking. With the result we all know about.

Starmer is in contrast supposed to think the media matters and we need some proper support there, so yes we could do with a somewhat sharper strategy to go along with that I agree.


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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #619 on: December 06, 2020, 11:29:52 AM »

Corbyn's leadership not only ignored the media, it was handing them ammunition with unforced errors and gaffes.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #620 on: December 06, 2020, 11:34:36 AM »

Corbyn's leadership not only ignored the media, it was handing them ammunition with unforced errors and gaffes.

Well yeah, though that was partly a consequence of not being bothered by them.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #621 on: December 06, 2020, 12:50:13 PM »

Only since about Friday evening, before then it was all "but what will Labour do??"

As if that was *the* most important thing.

Part of the problem is that Labour - for all it's byzantine silliness - is a much less opaque organisation. Easier to get good gossip, easier to get actual information, easier to put together stories quickly for a deadline. Even the most paranoid people in Labour talk.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #622 on: December 06, 2020, 12:52:25 PM »

Corbyn's leadership not only ignored the media, it was handing them ammunition with unforced errors and gaffes.

Well yeah, though that was partly a consequence of not being bothered by them.

Yes, it led to a certain arrogance and then to sloppiness. But Labour's press management has been very poor since - we might as well be honest about this - Campbell left his post. Corbyn era an absolute nadir, but not something that came out of nowhere.
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cp
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« Reply #623 on: December 06, 2020, 01:49:25 PM »

Corbyn's leadership not only ignored the media, it was handing them ammunition with unforced errors and gaffes.

Well yeah, though that was partly a consequence of not being bothered by them.

Yes, it led to a certain arrogance and then to sloppiness. But Labour's press management has been very poor since - we might as well be honest about this - Campbell left his post. Corbyn era an absolute nadir, but not something that came out of nowhere.

No doubt about the Corbyn era media strategy and its ultimately fatal shortcomings, but I think the process is a two-way street. Pretty much every major media outlet became a shade more hostile to Labour after 2007: The Telegraph/DM/Times went from unsupportive to vituperative; the BBC went from ambivalent to skeptical; the Guardian went from supportive to ambivalent. No matter how well or badly Labour's leadership ran the party, or how un/popular the party's leader/positions were with the public, or how savvy its media team was, the overall reception was tepid at best.

Also, again not letting Corbyn off the hook, but I think his arrival pushed each media outlet another step or two further toward knee-jerk anti-Labour hostility.
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GoTfan
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« Reply #624 on: December 06, 2020, 03:41:25 PM »

Corbyn's leadership not only ignored the media, it was handing them ammunition with unforced errors and gaffes.

Well yeah, though that was partly a consequence of not being bothered by them.

Yes, it led to a certain arrogance and then to sloppiness. But Labour's press management has been very poor since - we might as well be honest about this - Campbell left his post. Corbyn era an absolute nadir, but not something that came out of nowhere.

No doubt about the Corbyn era media strategy and its ultimately fatal shortcomings, but I think the process is a two-way street. Pretty much every major media outlet became a shade more hostile to Labour after 2007: The Telegraph/DM/Times went from unsupportive to vituperative; the BBC went from ambivalent to skeptical; the Guardian went from supportive to ambivalent. No matter how well or badly Labour's leadership ran the party, or how un/popular the party's leader/positions were with the public, or how savvy its media team was, the overall reception was tepid at best.

Also, again not letting Corbyn off the hook, but I think his arrival pushed each media outlet another step or two further toward knee-jerk anti-Labour hostility.

I tend to agree. There were university studies done that showed that Labour in general and Corbyn in particular were the victims of an incredibly vitriolic media with the overwhelming majority of media stories about them being extremely negative on almost everything.
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