This Once Great Movement Of Ours

[Silent Hunter]

Jews in Britain are what might be termed "white-passing"... but once people know a particular person is Jewish, they will be subjected to racism.

[cp]

It's pretty grossly inappropriate given that Jewish people in the United Kingdom (and even more so in certain other European countries!) are disproportionately likely to be the victims of racist violence. I'm not sure if having a higher than average income and being more likely to own ones own business - hardly distinctively Jewish characteristics amongst British minorities I must note - necessarily makes up for the very real fear that being aware of that fact inevitably brings. Let alone being unfortunate enough for it to happen to you. Different minorities face different forms of prejudice, and the old Marxist argument that severity can only truly be understood in terms of the material impact (that nasty old line of Luxemburg's and so on) would be bad enough in any context - few arguments have been more thoroughly discredited by subsequent events - but is particularly grotesque in this context, where the lazy recourse to that argument can be shown to be one of the motive factors in furthering the whole damned problem. And that is the other issue: the reason why there has been so much focus on antisemitism recently is because of a public scandal involving antisemitism in a certain large national institution...

Which was precisely the point of Shakar's piece: Muslim and Black Britons experience severe economic discrimination, excessive state/police oppression, and exhibit health outcomes far worse than Jewish Britons do. (Muslims are also *far* more likely to be the victims of hate crimes than Jewish people are. I'm not aware of evidence regarding violence specifically). Yet, those problems have been habitually ignored by the British media, political parties of all stripes. To argue that only Jewish people have had discrimination against them dismissed is patently false.

Tendentiously arguing that Shakar was merely spouting simplistic Marxist ideology doesn't help anything. Her argument is much more sophisticated than that.

Lisa Nandy got herself in a bit of trouble (but phrased it differently & has a lot more goodwill among the Jewish Labour movement) for saying something slighty like that; I don't understand the need for people to continue trying to debate the semantics of this; we saw it in 2018 and we saw it in 2019 & it doesn't serve any purpose.

But yes Sarkar doesn't exactly have a great record on this subject.

It's not a semantic argument and it serves a vital purpose. To allow misapprehension, disinformation, and nonsense arguments about racism to go unchallenged just perpetuates the same ignorance that racism itself feeds on. Shakar (and Nandy for that matter) are correct, even if their observations are unfashionable at the moment.

[CumbrianLefty]

Weekend polls show Labour's/Starmer's ratings to have taken a turn for the worse - kicking Corbyn's future into the long grass for a few months may yet prove to have been the wisest option.

[EastAnglianLefty]

Weekend polls show Labour's/Starmer's ratings to have taken a turn for the worse - kicking Corbyn's future into the long grass for a few months may yet prove to have been the wisest option.

Only one poll, and from a particularly unimpressive pollster at that. Might be indicative, but not anything worth fretting about just yet.

[afleitch]

Starmer has a problem. Boris elicits love or hatred. Starmer elicits...nothing. Assuming 'one more heave' with Starmer is dangerous.

[Silent Hunter]

That was good enough for Biden, but he had past experience as VP.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Lisa Nandy got herself in a bit of trouble (but phrased it differently & has a lot more goodwill among the Jewish Labour movement) for saying something slighty like that; I don't understand the need for people to continue trying to debate the semantics of this; we saw it in 2018 and we saw it in 2019 & it doesn't serve any purpose.

Nandy's argument was different: she was trying to explain that the other argument is very common on the political Left and that it is a contributory factor the problem as it means antisemitism is not taken as seriously in those circles as a result, but phrased it a little clumsily.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Only one poll, and from a particularly unimpressive pollster at that. Might be indicative, but not anything worth fretting about just yet.

This particular polling firm has had the two major parties a MoE away from 40% since the end of July, with movement around that line sometimes going this way and sometimes that way.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Starmer has a problem. Boris elicits love or hatred. Starmer elicits...nothing. Assuming 'one more heave' with Starmer is dangerous.

One of the annoying things about the pandemic is that it's harder to keep an ear to the ground as usual, but I have noticed a degree of warmth from some people who are in one of his more obvious target audiences. But all is very early, still.

[Blair]

Weekend polls show Labour's/Starmer's ratings to have taken a turn for the worse - kicking Corbyn's future into the long grass for a few months may yet prove to have been the wisest option.

From the skimming I did of it this appears to be from Starmers negative rating going up; which was when his similar fall happened earlier in the year.

The toplines broadly seem to jump around with a fall for Labour when something like this happens & a fall for when the Tories do something that even there core vote finds relatively repugnant.

 

Starmer has a problem. Boris elicits love or hatred. Starmer elicits...nothing. Assuming 'one more heave' with Starmer is dangerous.

Usual caveat but the perception I've got from talking to people who didn't vote Labour last time in my family is that Starmer is sensible & a safe pair of the hands; although the fact that one of these people said 'he reminds me of one of the high ranking members of the Wilson Government' does show the age of these people...

[CumbrianLefty]

Weekend polls show Labour's/Starmer's ratings to have taken a turn for the worse - kicking Corbyn's future into the long grass for a few months may yet prove to have been the wisest option.

Only one poll, and from a particularly unimpressive pollster at that. Might be indicative, but not anything worth fretting about just yet.

Though they got the last GE almost spot on (yes I was surprised too)

And there is also the latest YouGov poll showing Labour down by 3%.

[morgieb]

It's probably a good thing that this happened now rather than in three years time. I think this will be mostly forgotten from all but the biggest Corbyn diehards.

Still I don't think Starmer's handled this well at all.

[EastAnglianLefty]

It's probably a good thing that this happened now rather than in three years time. I think this will be mostly forgotten from all but the biggest Corbyn diehards.

Still I don't think Starmer's handled this well at all.

Optimistic of you to hope this will be concluded in three years' time. There needs to be an independent complaints procedure implemented by September (which has to be signed off by party conference, which isn't supposed to meet until next September); then there are at least a dozen MPs (including Corbyn) who are likely to be investigated via that new procedure; then there's the issue that the suspension is supposed to be reviewed in 3 months time; then there's the fact that Corbyn is temperamentally unable to admit fault. There was never a realistic way to deal with this that didn't leave somebody very upset.

[Blair]

The 'left' have stormed/walked out of an NEC away day that was set up to elect the chair.

They claim it's stitched up to make Margaret Beckett Chair, Leadership claim that they're un-doing the stitch up from 2016 to stop her becoming chair.*

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1331176521055264768

I think this basically confirms that the left are slowly moving through the tools to try and oppose/stop/change Starmers' approach; each time it becomes more ineffective & more self-destructing until you end up trying to do a leadership contest because there's nothing else left to do!

I know this as someone who spent four years watching the Labour Right do the exact same thing and they too lost track of the run-away train when they whipped it up...

*Labours sod law suggests that in 2030 the right will have a strop when Diane Holland is made Chair...

[Blair]

I wonder which Lawyer wrote this... it doesn't make sense to write it in a legal sense and then throw in words like 'factionalism' which have absolutely no bearing on the party.

https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1331186798400319491

[CumbrianLefty]

Of course, there is an argument they should actually be writing to Starmer about Evans.

[EastAnglianLefty]

It should be remembered that being the chair of the NEC has no special powers, so this is an even more pointless thing to get in a huff about than it appears at first glance.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

each time it becomes more ineffective & more self-destructing until you end up trying to do a leadership contest because there's nothing else left to do!

Except that, in this case, they literally do not have the numbers to get to that point! So there isn't even a station at the end of the line marked 'sweet release of death'.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It should be remembered that being the chair of the NEC has no special powers, so this is an even more pointless thing to get in a huff about than it appears at first glance.

It's a dispute about an actual honorific.

[CumbrianLefty]

each time it becomes more ineffective & more self-destructing until you end up trying to do a leadership contest because there's nothing else left to do!

Except that, in this case, they literally do not have the numbers to get to that point! So there isn't even a station at the end of the line marked 'sweet release of death'.

Ian Lavery is going to challenge Starmer for the leadership AND WIN - haven't you heard?

[Blair]

Jon Lansman actually had quite a measured view on this whole matter which was that A.) Margaret Beckett is hardly an active member of the Labour Right B.) The Leadership/Labour 'Right' have a majority on the NEC & the left need to accept that.

It's interesting that this appears to quickly be becoming an issue where the union-left is controlling the show; with Lansman off the NEC there's no-one whose really that experienced. Momemtum are a bit of a hollowed out force (if they can't turn out members for the leadership race/ face NEC races under new rules they're quite weak)

But ultimately if you let a clique within UNITE run the show then the obvious thing is going to happen! The stuff below is an example of the rubbish they come out with that has no strategy A.) They were hardly quiet before? B.) He just lost an internal election in UNITE with the platform of 'well Keir is a scab' C.) Grenfell has no relevance to this?

https://twitter.com/BeckettUnite/status/1331191175970238465

[Blair]

It should be remembered that being the chair of the NEC has no special powers, so this is an even more pointless thing to get in a huff about than it appears at first glance.

It's a dispute about an actual honorific.

Doesn't it have some small powers?

I remember reading that Tom Watson & Angela Rayner only exist because the the NEC motion to remove the position of deputy leader was ruled as out of order by the UNISON NEC member who was Vice-Chair (I think the Chair was either awol or expected to be chairing it?)

[EastAnglianLefty]

Jon Lansman actually had quite a measured view on this whole matter which was that A.) Margaret Beckett is hardly an active member of the Labour Right B.) The Leadership/Labour 'Right' have a majority on the NEC & the left need to accept that.

It's interesting that this appears to quickly be becoming an issue where the union-left is controlling the show; with Lansman off the NEC there's no-one whose really that experienced. Momemtum are a bit of a hollowed out force (if they can't turn out members for the leadership race/ face NEC races under new rules they're quite weak)

But ultimately if you let a clique within UNITE run the show then the obvious thing is going to happen! The stuff below is an example of the rubbish they come out with that has no strategy A.) They were hardly quiet before? B.) He just lost an internal election in UNITE with the platform of 'well Keir is a scab' C.) Grenfell has no relevance to this?

https://twitter.com/BeckettUnite/status/1331191175970238465

Not only is Grenfell not relevant, but firefighters (through no fault of their own) didn't come out of that catastrophe with their reputations enhanced.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Doesn't it have some small powers?

I remember reading that Tom Watson & Angela Rayner only exist because the the NEC motion to remove the position of deputy leader was ruled as out of order by the UNISON NEC member who was Vice-Chair (I think the Chair was either awol or expected to be chairing it?)

It's one of those funny posts that is mostly purely ceremonial, but can be important in a tense situation. Very British.

[Blair]

Negative briefing against Starmer in the Observer; I will say that at least when the left brief against Keir they A.) Have the courage to actually use their name B.) Actually disagree with something...  the below is just word salad.

One Labour veteran said that while Starmer had made a strong start by focusing on his competence, many in the party were “worried about Keir, because they don’t feel they know enough about where he sits on the political spectrum”. He added: “I think there is some degree of confusion within the Labour party as to where he stands and what his values are. And that is because of the lack of things that he’s fighting for beyond competence. He has to establish not a set of detailed policies, but a political position, which tells the public that we stand for our values. It has to be about much more than competence.”

If you're complaining that you 'don't feel you know about' where your leader sits on the spectrum then you've clearly been asleep for the last 11 months; I assume this is just code for 'we don't feel he's right wing enough'. It's so melodramatic and petty I mean what on earth does ' tells the public that we stand for our values' mean?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/29/keir-starmer-warned-not-to-insist-labour-mps-vote-for-brexit-deal