This Once Great Movement Of Ours

[CumbrianLefty]

This seems like a massive overreaction, though I'll admit I'm not an expert on antisemitism in the UK or the UK in general. With that being said, can someone explain to me why the EHRC has elected not to investigate Islamophobia within the Conservatives? It seems to me that that's objectively at least a large problem, if not larger than the antisemitism within Labour, and it seems that there's a vastly different standard being applied to the parties here.

Between Jewish and Mulisms, only one of the two have an influence over institutions.
Between Corbyn and Johnson, only one of the two doesn't adhere to the "liberal" "consensus".

The insinuation here leads you down a very dark path....

And what does the second claim mean - our soft-Orbanist PM is actually a "liberal"??

[cp]

This seems like a massive overreaction, though I'll admit I'm not an expert on antisemitism in the UK or the UK in general. With that being said, can someone explain to me why the EHRC has elected not to investigate Islamophobia within the Conservatives? It seems to me that that's objectively at least a large problem, if not larger than the antisemitism within Labour, and it seems that there's a vastly different standard being applied to the parties here.

Between Jewish and Mulisms, only one of the two have an influence over institutions.
Between Corbyn and Johnson, only one of the two doesn't adhere to the "liberal" "consensus".

The insinuation here leads you down a very dark path....

And what does the second claim mean - our soft-Orbanist PM is actually a "liberal"??

Replace 'liberal' with 'neoliberal' and the comparison works fine.

[Pulaski]

Whether Corbyn’s right or wrong, suspending him is a massive overreaction from a party that’s literally accepted ex-BNP councillors into its fold - still, I’m sure that fact has nothing to do with antisemitism in the party. BNP guys are notoriously big friends of the Jews.

I actually looked up the councillor in question; she showed far more humility and contrition than Corbyn would ever be capable of doing.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jun/14/localgovernment.politics

Not the only one. Blair is right; this is a long-standing issue in Labour (and society in general) that was seized upon and exaggerated by Corbyn critics as an excuse to undermine his leadership.

[EastAnglianLefty]

It's a longstanding issue, but it has got worse in the past 5 years, both in terms of the number of people expressing antisemitic attitudes, and in terms of the number of people who had mildly antisemitic attitudes who radicalised themselves into believing Rothschild memes.

Honestly it's probably the latter group who are the bigger problem right now, and it's those that Corbyn probably bears most responsibility for because the overly defensive tone he took filtered down through the party.

[CumbrianLefty]

It appears there have been "contacts" about how JC might be returned to the fold.

Be in no doubt though, if he just gets handed the whip back the optics will be just slightly sub-optimal - he surely has to show some genuine contrition.

[Blair]

Yes it is worth remembering that the line given by the then Leaders office has changed; first there was no issue with anti-semitism, then there was a small issue, then they tried to fix it but were blocked by factionalism, then they admitted they were too slow & by 2020 even Rebecca Long-Bailey had said that the party had failed on the issue. This is actually one of the things that has made it hard for me to take a lot of the claims about this seriously.

I think that as the EHRC report makes clear though this was a 'serious failings' in leadership and which allowled for ''a culture within the party which, at best, did not do enough to prevent antisemitism and, at worst, could be seen to accept it.' I'm lifting those quotes from a Guardian article on it but there are equally damning ones throughout.

[Blair]

It appears there have been "contacts" about how JC might be returned to the fold.

Be in no doubt though, if he just gets handed the whip back the optics will be just slightly sub-optimal - he surely has to show some genuine contrition.

I think I alluded to it before but this does show the problem with new truly independent process (but I guess it's a problem that is worth the price of ensuring this never happens again)

The Leader should not have the power to just clap & sort this out but everyone is very clearly making noises to Keir about it. This isn't just a case where you can wait 9 months & bring them the whip and hope no-one notices.

[Pulaski]

Honestly at a certain point I wonder if Corbyn has anything to gain from having the whip returned to him. This Labour party have clearly decided to revert back to the old attitude of "no room in the inn" for any genuine socialist, much less anyone even moderately critical of Israel. If I were him I'd think long and hard about apologising for the mildest of comments to get back into a party that would never dare to suggest suspending the likes of Tony Blair for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Doesn't seem to be a whole lot inside Labour worth fighting for anyway.

[Lord Halifax]

Corbyn is 71 and will probably be 75 when the next election takes place. Why doesn't he simply retire?

[Blair]

Honestly at a certain point I wonder if Corbyn has anything to gain from having the whip returned to him. This Labour party have clearly decided to revert back to the old attitude of "no room in the inn" for any genuine socialist, much less anyone even moderately critical of Israel. If I were him I'd think long and hard about apologising for the mildest of comments to get back into a party that would never dare to suggest suspending the likes of Tony Blair for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Doesn't seem to be a whole lot inside Labour worth fighting for anyway.

This isn't true.

I'd reccomend watching the recent House of Commons debate where a large number of Labour MPs were extremely critical of Israel & specifically settlement building. I can list at least 10 Starmer friendly MPs off the top of my head who are extremely critical of Israel & have played a large role in Parliamentary debates on this issue.

The Shadow Foreign Secretary Lisa Nandy use to be the Chair of Labour friends of Palestine & I saw her open a meeting at Labour conference with the Palestinian Ambassador. One of her junior ministers Stephen Kinnock is even more pro-Palestine (and is the outgoing chair of the Parliamentary Lobby Group on the issue)

There's certainly a degree of difference within the party & as with all these issues different opinions. Kinnock even got briefed against it recently but it's a complete myth that the PLP is at all as anti-Palestinian as people think it is (or as it was say 15 years ago)

[Pulaski]

Kinnock's recent dressing down is symptomatic of the wider issue; the party has been purging critics of Israel all year.

 

[Silent Hunter]

There are critics of Israel and then there are anti-Semites. The division is fairly thin at times.

[cp]

Honestly at a certain point I wonder if Corbyn has anything to gain from having the whip returned to him. This Labour party have clearly decided to revert back to the old attitude of "no room in the inn" for any genuine socialist, much less anyone even moderately critical of Israel. If I were him I'd think long and hard about apologising for the mildest of comments to get back into a party that would never dare to suggest suspending the likes of Tony Blair for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Doesn't seem to be a whole lot inside Labour worth fighting for anyway.

This isn't true.

I'd reccomend watching the recent House of Commons debate where a large number of Labour MPs were extremely critical of Israel & specifically settlement building. I can list at least 10 Starmer friendly MPs off the top of my head who are extremely critical of Israel & have played a large role in Parliamentary debates on this issue.

The Shadow Foreign Secretary Lisa Nandy use to be the Chair of Labour friends of Palestine & I saw her open a meeting at Labour conference with the Palestinian Ambassador. One of her junior ministers Stephen Kinnock is even more pro-Palestine (and is the outgoing chair of the Parliamentary Lobby Group on the issue)

There's certainly a degree of difference within the party & as with all these issues different opinions. Kinnock even got briefed against it recently but it's a complete myth that the PLP is at all as anti-Palestinian as people think it is (or as it was say 15 years ago)

If what was said in the HoC debate qualifies as 'extremely critical' of Israel then the term has lost all meaning. Anodyne admonishments of pervasive state coordinated human rights abuses do not an 'extreme' criticism make. Agonizingly contorted, surgically precise, deliberately tentative proposals for the mildest of push backs against the state orchestrating said abuses qualifies as 'pro-Palestine' in little more than name. The Overton window on Israel/Palestine has moved so decisively away from the Palestinian cause in the past 20 years it makes it hard to take seriously those who try to frame the current terms of debate as in any way balanced.

[CumbrianLefty]

Corbyn is 71 and will probably be 75 when the next election takes place. Why doesn't he simply retire?

Quite conceivable that he will in 2024, especially if boundary changes radically alter his seat.

[CumbrianLefty]

Kinnock's recent dressing down is symptomatic of the wider issue; the party has been purging critics of Israel all year.

Winstanley is a Grade A crank, just saying.

[CumbrianLefty]

There are critics of Israel and then there are anti-Semites. The division is fairly thin at times.

And at times its not thin at all, and attempts by some pro-Israel bods to pretend otherwise don't help.

[CumbrianLefty]

Honestly at a certain point I wonder if Corbyn has anything to gain from having the whip returned to him. This Labour party have clearly decided to revert back to the old attitude of "no room in the inn" for any genuine socialist, much less anyone even moderately critical of Israel. If I were him I'd think long and hard about apologising for the mildest of comments to get back into a party that would never dare to suggest suspending the likes of Tony Blair for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Doesn't seem to be a whole lot inside Labour worth fighting for anyway.

I mean, this just isn't true on either point.

There *are* people who would like to purge the left in its entirety, granted.

Just not that many of them in the current leadership.

[Blair]

Yes I mean Asa Winstanley himself was suspended from Labour when Jeremy Corbyn was leader & Jennie Formby was General-Secretary.

I wonder why?

[Saruku]

There is so much focus on the question of Palestine specifically, but it is only one part of something much bigger.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It appears there have been "contacts" about how JC might be returned to the fold.

Be in no doubt though, if he just gets handed the whip back the optics will be just slightly sub-optimal - he surely has to show some genuine contrition.

One option would be to stick him on a course. Obviously he wouldn't pay attention to anything told on it because he is the man he is, but in situations like this it makes sense to start as you mean to go on and education is going to have to play a big role in cleaning this mess up.

[Pulaski]

Kinnock's recent dressing down is symptomatic of the wider issue; the party has been purging critics of Israel all year.

Winstanley is a Grade A crank, just saying.

That’s nice but it doesn’t change the facts outlined in the article.

[EastAnglianLefty]

Grade A crank is putting it politely. He is a vociferous anti-semite with a long history of pushing false information and should never be treated as a reliable source.

[CumbrianLefty]

Things have gone fairly quiet on this already - maybe a good sign?

[CumbrianLefty]

This thread has gone rather quiet too......

Latest on the Corbyn business is Jon Lansman making clear he wasn't happy with the former leader's response to the report (though he also disagrees with the suspension, unsurprisingly)

[cp]

The NEC election results are due out today at 5pm. Was meant to be at noon but there have been delays, apparently as the votes are checked for eligibility.