This Once Great Movement Of Ours
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Secretary of State Liberal Hack
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« Reply #1775 on: January 16, 2022, 12:42:02 PM »
« edited: January 16, 2022, 12:45:05 PM by Secretary of State Liberal Hack »

Those two are always amusing as, in practice, their politics aren't that far removed from his lmao. Ah, the Labour Party.
Trickett's brain has sadly been melted by the Corbyn years.
I mean, just look at this:

https://twitter.com/jon_trickett/status/1482304140575481857
Is there a single voter who could possibly be gained by this tweet ? Like is there anyone out there like, I was going to support the policing bill but Rosa Luxemburg wouldn't haved like it so now I have to vote labour.


Also I find it weird how many people in the parliamentsry labour party support the spartacist uprisings which was explictly about rejecting electoral democracy and social democratic parties in favour of Soviet style council governments.
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JimJamUK
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« Reply #1776 on: January 16, 2022, 02:10:03 PM »

Is there a single voter who could possibly be gained by this tweet ? Like is there anyone out there like, I was going to support the policing bill but Rosa Luxemburg wouldn't haved like it so now I have to vote labour.


Also I find it weird how many people in the parliamentary labour party support the spartacist uprisings which was explictly about rejecting electoral democracy and social democratic parties in favour of Soviet style council governments.
You assume that Trickett is speaking to ordinary voters rather than riling up Twitter leftists who will be even more pissed off should Starmer make any sort of conciliatory comments about the bill in the future.

On the second point, the nature of the British 2 party system means that some really far left people have ended up in Labour (particularly but by no means only under Corbyn) despite the social democratic electoralist orientation of the party in government and even under left wing leaders in opposition. Apart from the general far left 'vibes' that some people would find attractive about this sort of thing, some within Labour spend increasingly too much time within the far left media ecosphere and therefore pick up ideas from more anarchist orientated people who are not in Labour themselves and even under Corbyn were not entirely comfortable with the party on policy areas like immigration and policing.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1777 on: January 16, 2022, 02:37:15 PM »

Rosa Luxemburg isn't just admired by fringe ultra-leftists tbf.
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Secretary of State Liberal Hack
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« Reply #1778 on: January 16, 2022, 02:51:23 PM »

Rosa Luxemburg isn't just admired by fringe ultra-leftists tbf.
The spartacist uprising is way too over mythologized as well as the narrative of the SPD betrayal.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1779 on: January 16, 2022, 02:53:14 PM »

Rosa Luxemburg isn't just admired by fringe ultra-leftists tbf.
The spartacist uprising is way too over mythologized as well as the narrative of the SPD betrayal.

She was far from perfect, but her recognition that socialism could only be achieved under democracy went sadly unheeded by certain others of her political stripe.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #1780 on: January 16, 2022, 03:56:42 PM »

Rosa Luxemburg isn't just admired by fringe ultra-leftists tbf.
The spartacist uprising is way too over mythologized as well as the narrative of the SPD betrayal.

She was far from perfect, but her recognition that socialism could only be achieved under democracy went sadly unheeded by certain others of her political stripe.

? Luxembourg supported armed uprisings against the democratic SPD government.
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Good Habit
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« Reply #1781 on: January 16, 2022, 04:42:07 PM »

Quote from: Statilius the Epicurean link=topic=372490.msg8433392#msg8433392
? Luxembourg supported armed uprisings against the democratic SPD government.

Nope - there was no democratic SPD government - the SPD and USPD had formed a provisional government after a popular revolution, but the SPD was ready to hand over power to the militarist right (or at least, have a de-facto power sharing agreement). So, the uprsing was to resist the return to power of the old capitalist, militarist elite, even if their rule would, for some time, take the form of "democratic constitutionalism."

(Didn't last all that long - so there is a direct line from the SPD suppression of the spartacist uprising to rise the of the NSDAP)
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« Reply #1782 on: January 16, 2022, 04:56:08 PM »

Rosa Luxemburg isn't just admired by fringe ultra-leftists tbf.
The spartacist uprising is way too over mythologized as well as the narrative of the SPD betrayal.

She was far from perfect, but her recognition that socialism could only be achieved under democracy went sadly unheeded by certain others of her political stripe.

? Luxembourg supported armed uprisings against the democratic SPD government.

Both of those can be true, as contradictory as they may be.
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Secretary of State Liberal Hack
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« Reply #1783 on: January 16, 2022, 05:02:45 PM »

Quote from: Statilius the Epicurean link=topic=372490.msg8433392#msg8433392
? Luxembourg supported armed uprisings against the democratic SPD government.

Nope - there was no democratic SPD government - the SPD and USPD had formed a provisional government after a popular revolution, but the SPD was ready to hand over power to the militarist right (or at least, have a de-facto power sharing agreement). So, the uprsing was to resist the return to power of the old capitalist, militarist elite, even if their rule would, for some time, take the form of "democratic constitutionalism."

(Didn't last all that long - so there is a direct line from the SPD suppression of the spartacist uprising to rise the of the NSDAP)
The spartacist uprising wanted to abolish elected democracy in favour of "worker" councils that in all likelihood would have produced a USSR style dictatorship functionaly.

Launching a violent uprising and then complaining that it was. Opposed  is incredibly hypocritical. Using the freikcorps wasn't great but it was the only option the uprising gave the SPD
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #1784 on: January 16, 2022, 05:37:10 PM »

Quote from: Statilius the Epicurean link=topic=372490.msg8433392#msg8433392
? Luxembourg supported armed uprisings against the democratic SPD government.

Nope - there was no democratic SPD government - the SPD and USPD had formed a provisional government after a popular revolution, but the SPD was ready to hand over power to the militarist right (or at least, have a de-facto power sharing agreement). So, the uprsing was to resist the return to power of the old capitalist, militarist elite, even if their rule would, for some time, take the form of "democratic constitutionalism."

(Didn't last all that long - so there is a direct line from the SPD suppression of the spartacist uprising to rise the of the NSDAP)

1) The SPD were a democratic party and had just led a democratic, republican revolution.
2) The SPD won the elections held in January 1919, a week or two after the Spartacist uprising. The USPD was the 5th largest party in that election, let alone the KPD who had recently split and were nowhere (and got 2% in the national election a year later in 1920).
3) Power sharing with sections of the right was the only way to avoid a civil war, which the right would have won. The alternative would be a proto-fascist military government 15 years early.
4)  The idea that the Spartacist uprising had the slightest chance of success even if the SPD leadership magically supported it, is voluntarist fantasy.
5) "Democratic" is the entire people, as a whole, having a voice in government. Luxemburg and the KPD opposed this, instead advocating class dictatorship.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #1785 on: January 16, 2022, 05:48:07 PM »

Rosa Luxemburg isn't just admired by fringe ultra-leftists tbf.
The spartacist uprising is way too over mythologized as well as the narrative of the SPD betrayal.

She was far from perfect, but her recognition that socialism could only be achieved under democracy went sadly unheeded by certain others of her political stripe.

? Luxembourg supported armed uprisings against the democratic SPD government.

Both of those can be true, as contradictory as they may be.

It's true if you play word games. "Democracy" meant something different to Luxemburg, an orthodox Marxist, than it does to most people.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1786 on: January 17, 2022, 06:13:45 AM »

Ah, the Ebert stans have logged on Smiley

You know, at least a bit of nuance about these things might be appreciated.
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Blair
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« Reply #1787 on: January 17, 2022, 02:25:14 PM »
« Edited: January 17, 2022, 02:28:30 PM by Blair »

Is there a single voter who could possibly be gained by this tweet ? Like is there anyone out there like, I was going to support the policing bill but Rosa Luxemburg wouldn't haved like it so now I have to vote labour.


Also I find it weird how many people in the parliamentary labour party support the spartacist uprisings which was explictly about rejecting electoral democracy and social democratic parties in favour of Soviet style council governments.
You assume that Trickett is speaking to ordinary voters rather than riling up Twitter leftists who will be even more pissed off should Starmer make any sort of conciliatory comments about the bill in the future.

On the second point, the nature of the British 2 party system means that some really far left people have ended up in Labour (particularly but by no means only under Corbyn) despite the social democratic electoralist orientation of the party in government and even under left wing leaders in opposition. Apart from the general far left 'vibes' that some people would find attractive about this sort of thing, some within Labour spend increasingly too much time within the far left media ecosphere and therefore pick up ideas from more anarchist orientated people who are not in Labour themselves and even under Corbyn were not entirely comfortable with the party on policy areas like immigration and policing.

Trickett isn’t even that much on the left- he was PPS to Peter Mandelson. I think he’s just had the turmoil of Corbyn/Brexit to shift his stance with Labours factions- I did a post a while back about how Labour still hasn’t really detached ideological positioning from your view on Corbyn.
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Blair
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« Reply #1788 on: January 19, 2022, 07:57:52 AM »

Defection causing the expected anger on the left.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1789 on: January 19, 2022, 08:57:09 AM »

Its fairly easy to sort out the genuine reservations about Wakeford from the bad faith ones (you can detect the latter pretty well by simply asking - how would the same people have reacted to a Tory MP going Labour in the Corbyn era?)

But one benefit of getting old is that you can recall pretty much exactly the same things being asked about Alan Howarth back in the day - and he quickly fitted pretty well into Labour.
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Torrain
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« Reply #1790 on: January 19, 2022, 09:06:48 AM »

While I understand there are reservations about Wakeford, given his conservative voting record, I remain amazed by the ability of Labour factions to not only look a gifthorse in the mouth, but to demand the gifthorse be immediately turned into glue.

Between Momentum, Young Labour and Co, there seems to be a number of calls demanding Wakeford either resign, or face immediate deselection, within hours of his defection. Very Twitter-brain.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #1791 on: January 19, 2022, 09:40:16 AM »

An MPs voting record generally isn't particularly meaningful in a whipped parliamentary system.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1792 on: January 19, 2022, 10:20:00 AM »

Though in this case, its stuff he advocated for more vocally than that which is causing concern.

But people do change their minds on things, even as MPs.

And yes, a lot of the opposition to this is classic bad-faith performativeism.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #1793 on: January 19, 2022, 03:10:33 PM »

While I understand there are reservations about Wakeford, given his conservative voting record, I remain amazed by the ability of Labour factions to not only look a gifthorse in the mouth, but to demand the gifthorse be immediately turned into glue.

Between Momentum, Young Labour and Co, there seems to be a number of calls demanding Wakeford either resign, or face immediate deselection, within hours of his defection. Very Twitter-brain.

I understand even less the Tories (and some on the left) calling for an immediate by-election as some sort of own, as if the incumbent wouldn't win comfortably in current circumstances.
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Blair
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« Reply #1794 on: January 19, 2022, 04:04:35 PM »

While I understand there are reservations about Wakeford, given his conservative voting record, I remain amazed by the ability of Labour factions to not only look a gifthorse in the mouth, but to demand the gifthorse be immediately turned into glue.

Between Momentum, Young Labour and Co, there seems to be a number of calls demanding Wakeford either resign, or face immediate deselection, within hours of his defection. Very Twitter-brain.

I understand even less the Tories (and some on the left) calling for an immediate by-election as some sort of own, as if the incumbent wouldn't win comfortably in current circumstances.

There will also one day be a day when said parties have a defection and won’t want a by-election.

The quirk of our system is that we elect MPs who are free to fake their own death, murder their rent boys dog or sell themselves out to Milošević- and that’s just since the 1970s!
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Torrain
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« Reply #1795 on: January 19, 2022, 04:15:46 PM »

While I understand there are reservations about Wakeford, given his conservative voting record, I remain amazed by the ability of Labour factions to not only look a gifthorse in the mouth, but to demand the gifthorse be immediately turned into glue.

Between Momentum, Young Labour and Co, there seems to be a number of calls demanding Wakeford either resign, or face immediate deselection, within hours of his defection. Very Twitter-brain.

I understand even less the Tories (and some on the left) calling for an immediate by-election as some sort of own, as if the incumbent wouldn't win comfortably in current circumstances.

Exactly - if anything, it just gives Wakeford the chance to reinforce his mandate, and built support among voters to make his chances of succeeding at the next GE that bit easier.
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Torrain
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« Reply #1796 on: January 19, 2022, 04:18:06 PM »

While we’re here - it’s worth pointing out that Bury South was a bizarre one in 2019, and probably one of the seats most likely to flip next time.

You had a 400 vote margin between Labour and the Tories, but with two x-factors.
1 - the deselected Labour incumbent was running as an Indy (getting 1,300 votes)
2 - the Brexit Party candidate, who received 1,600 votes.

Even if Reform UK stick around next election, the incentive for Labour voters to take a gamble on them has evaporated post-Brexit, and the prior incumbent no longer holds any sway. The Labour candidate may make it to Parliament even under similar national polling to 2019.
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Secretary of State Liberal Hack
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« Reply #1797 on: January 19, 2022, 05:11:03 PM »

While I understand there are reservations about Wakeford, given his conservative voting record, I remain amazed by the ability of Labour factions to not only look a gifthorse in the mouth, but to demand the gifthorse be immediately turned into glue.

Between Momentum, Young Labour and Co, there seems to be a number of calls demanding Wakeford either resign, or face immediate deselection, within hours of his defection. Very Twitter-brain.

I understand even less the Tories (and some on the left) calling for an immediate by-election as some sort of own, as if the incumbent wouldn't win comfortably in current circumstances.
I do think it's the honourable thing to do and should probably be legislated to be mandatory.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1798 on: January 20, 2022, 09:51:34 AM »

While I understand there are reservations about Wakeford, given his conservative voting record, I remain amazed by the ability of Labour factions to not only look a gifthorse in the mouth, but to demand the gifthorse be immediately turned into glue.

Between Momentum, Young Labour and Co, there seems to be a number of calls demanding Wakeford either resign, or face immediate deselection, within hours of his defection. Very Twitter-brain.

I understand even less the Tories (and some on the left) calling for an immediate by-election as some sort of own, as if the incumbent wouldn't win comfortably in current circumstances.
I do think it's the honourable thing to do and should probably be legislated to be mandatory.

It sounds good, but the practicalities of enforcing it haven't gone away.
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Secretary of State Liberal Hack
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« Reply #1799 on: January 20, 2022, 10:21:48 AM »
« Edited: January 20, 2022, 10:29:54 AM by Secretary of State Liberal Hack »

While I understand there are reservations about Wakeford, given his conservative voting record, I remain amazed by the ability of Labour factions to not only look a gifthorse in the mouth, but to demand the gifthorse be immediately turned into glue.

Between Momentum, Young Labour and Co, there seems to be a number of calls demanding Wakeford either resign, or face immediate deselection, within hours of his defection. Very Twitter-brain.

I understand even less the Tories (and some on the left) calling for an immediate by-election as some sort of own, as if the incumbent wouldn't win comfortably in current circumstances.
I do think it's the honourable thing to do and should probably be legislated to be mandatory.

It sounds good, but the practicalities of enforcing it haven't gone away.
I don't see what's impractical about it, parlimentary parties are legal bodies simply state members of such parties who contest the election under such a banner can have their office vacated if the party they contested under decides so.

We have it as a convention here in Singapore.



On another note, online left-wing outrage at Starmer is getting to levels that are beyond paraody at the moment. Here are a selection of posts from another forum that just strike me as very out of place compared to the rest of how things are going. Why is there such a disconnect between online outrage and the actual anemic starmer oppostion ?

Quote
Labour is at this point functionally hostile to the average stiff on the street with the amount of sh**t they're willing to enable and "ignore" so this is pretty unsurprising, but shocking nevertheless.

They're finally the tacked on extension to the left wing of the old dilapidated rot infested Tory pile.

The only thing approaching a solution at this point is for the Unions who back them and the PLP itself to be totally replaced by a completely different set of groups.

Labour is dead.

Up the workers.
Quote
I think it says a lot about the Labour party right now that an unrepentant Tory (he quite literally said in an interview his views haven't changed, just the colour of his rosette) who was happily endorsing and voting to cut Universal Credit, for the Police and Crime Bill and Nationality and Borers bill - is now more welcome than Corbyn.

Kind of illustrates just how far Labour have drifted rightward since 2019.

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