This Once Great Movement Of Ours

[Blair]

Is there a reason we don’t have these sort of figures in Labour local government anymore? I wonder how much of it is linked to the general decline in Local Govt.

[CumbrianLefty]

Seems to be more Starmer v Rayner "stuff" going on.

[Blair]

Another article claiming Labour need to embrace the future- which mentions the 'white heat' rhetoric of Wilson.

I think I've seen this example mentioned at least 100 times since I started following THIGMOO- I think it shows the age of the person writing it, but equally wasn't it a rather minor part of Wilsons campaign & a small part of a speech that's been retrospectively blown up?

The one interesting thing about technology that is forgotten is how Labour had a very long running & hilarious argument about whether TV was the 'idiots lantern' and to what extend they should avoid it- along with the corrosive impact it had on Socialism (they might not have been wrong!)

Anyway article below- giving the useful advice that Labour need to look for the Future. Reminds me of the Spitting Imagine clip of Kinnock shouting 'nurses, nurses, teachers, nurses, popular people, people who people like'.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/05/keir-starmer-scrutinise-blair-wilson-labour-wins-for-election-success

Seems to be more Starmer v Rayner "stuff" going on.

Briefing war after an aide was allegedly suspended for briefing about another aide being in an argument about their job. Peak Labour.

It's very frustrating- especially as there seemed to be an effort after conference for the two of them to 'get on'.

It was a stupid move back in April 2020 not to give her a proper departmental job- something like Health, Education or even DWP would have worked perfectly and imo kept her busy.  While she seemed suited to the 'rally the activists' type role as Party chair that she got it was not really one that suited her strengths, as she's never been a machine politician in that sense.

Her new role doesn't help either- the Cabinet office part is very dry & the 'future of work' should just be turned to employment rights or some other brief that allows her to do stuff with the unions. The current position is a messy fudge & I wouldn't be shocked if she quits before 2024.

She's been treated awfully & has every right to be angry, however there were always mutterings about why the Corbyn Leadership disliked her- for some it was a sign they were rigid ideologues but others claimed it was because she wasn't a 'team player'.

[CumbrianLefty]

It was a stupid move back in April 2020 not to give her a proper departmental job- something like Health, Education or even DWP would have worked perfectly and imo kept her busy.  While she seemed suited to the 'rally the activists' type role as Party chair that she got it was not really one that suited her strengths, as she's never been a machine politician in that sense.

Her new role doesn't help either- the Cabinet office part is very dry & the 'future of work' should just be turned to employment rights or some other brief that allows her to do stuff with the unions. The current position is a messy fudge & I wouldn't be shocked if she quits before 2024.

She's been treated awfully & has every right to be angry, however there were always mutterings about why the Corbyn Leadership disliked her- for some it was a sign they were rigid ideologues but others claimed it was because she wasn't a 'team player'.

Agree with much of the above - including the various reasons why many in the previous leadership didn't fully trust her. Would still be surprised if she quit before the next GE, though - the relationship still isn't anywhere near as dysfunctional as the Corbyn/Watson one after all. And wasn't the present state of affairs what she and Starmer "agreed" on after the latter's post-Hartlepool meltdown?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Half the trouble is simply the fact that she and Starmer have certain obvious similar psychological issues relating to their backgrounds and what has been required to kick their way upwards (even if they are expressed differently) and seemingly can't help but clash randomly as a result. Of course, and at the same time, they can also work effectively as a double-act. It's a very odd relationship. Not that very odd and frankly paradoxical relationships between senior figures are exactly new to THIGMOO...

[Conservatopia]

How necessary is a deputy leadership position anyway though?

Obviously you don't want to go full Tory with practically no internal democracy but might the left actually have been onto something when they wanted to abolish the deputy?

Sorry - whisky thoughts from me.

[Blair]

How necessary is a deputy leadership position anyway though?

Obviously you don't want to go full Tory with practically no internal democracy but might the left actually have been onto something when they wanted to abolish the deputy?

Sorry - whisky thoughts from me.

A good question. The fundamental problem is that reforming/changing the role needs to be done when it doesn't look like a stich up.

The biggest & most important part of it (taking over as leader if the current leader gets hit by the No.47 bus) doesn't even exist as in peak THIGMOO the rules were changed in the Corbyn era to let the NEC pick the Acting Leader- as they didn't want Tom taking over when Corbyn was rumoured to be on the verge of quitting. The only real power left in the job is being on the NEC & having a right to sit in the Shadow Cabinet.

Funnily enough I can't recall who said it but Tom Watson came close to calling for the role to be scrapped in his last days. There's a reason the last what 3 occupants have hated it. I think Angela has seriously damaged her hopes of becoming leader & her political capital as you spend your whole role getting into spats & doing a lot of 'bubble stuff'- I mean who can remember what Harriet Harman actually did as deputy leader?


The biggest problem with the role is that the elections have always been held at the same type as Leader (with the exception of 2007) so it tends to be won by the candidate who is the least offensive, who has the broadest base & who is generally in tune with the membership as it was then.

I saw someone suggest on twitter that you could do US style tickets; which honestly wouldn't be the worse idea. Just let the Leader appoint them- I don't think the PLP should elect them as it would imo lead to even more odd couples.

 

[Blair]

This does remind me of the hilarious yearly cycle of Corbyn's team briefing that they were going to create another deputy position- who would have to be a women. Tom Watson then announced he would support it & offered to campaign for it... it was then swiftly withdrawn.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

How necessary is a deputy leadership position anyway though?

It isn't. Historically it mostly functioned as a bauble given out to mollify either defeated leadership contenders or other senior figures whose egos needed to be sated. This hasn't been the case since Prescott's retirement and it is no longer clear what the post is for at all. Primarily it's a guaranteed seat in the Shadow Cabinet, except that as the sense that the post matters in itself (even though it doesn't) lingers, there's a tendency for the Deputy's portfolio to be odds and sods in addition to their role as Deputy, rather than to be given a proper portfolio and, in practice, this doesn't seem to work out very well.

[Torrain]

How necessary is a deputy leadership position anyway though?

It isn't. Historically it mostly functioned as a bauble given out to mollify either defeated leadership contenders or other senior figures whose egos needed to be sated. This hasn't been the case since Prescott's retirement and it is no longer clear what the post is for at all. Primarily it's a guaranteed seat in the Shadow Cabinet, except that as the sense that the post matters in itself (even though it doesn't) lingers, there's a tendency for the Deputy's portfolio to be odds and sods in addition to their role as Deputy, rather than to be given a proper portfolio and, in practice, this doesn't seem to work out very well.

It also seems to be an outlet for the party's current fear about their image.

• Rayner's win assuaged concerns about the failure to elect a female leader.
• Watson and Prescott seemingly 'balanced the ticket' ideologically, even though they utterly failed to prevent the party's swing to the left, or right respectively.

Not sure why Harman was chosen though.

It should be noted that these elections never really fix the anxiety at hand, they just seem to be a way for the delegates to worry marginally less about this week's round of party self-criticism.

[Blair]

How necessary is a deputy leadership position anyway though?

It isn't. Historically it mostly functioned as a bauble given out to mollify either defeated leadership contenders or other senior figures whose egos needed to be sated. This hasn't been the case since Prescott's retirement and it is no longer clear what the post is for at all. Primarily it's a guaranteed seat in the Shadow Cabinet, except that as the sense that the post matters in itself (even though it doesn't) lingers, there's a tendency for the Deputy's portfolio to be odds and sods in addition to their role as Deputy, rather than to be given a proper portfolio and, in practice, this doesn't seem to work out very well.

It also seems to be an outlet for the party's current fear about their image.

• Rayner's win assuaged concerns about the failure to elect a female leader.
• Watson and Prescott seemingly 'balanced the ticket' ideologically, even though they utterly failed to prevent the party's swing to the left, or right respectively.

Not sure why Harman was chosen though.

It should be noted that these elections never really fix the anxiety at hand, they just seem to be a way for the delegates to worry marginally less about this week's round of party self-criticism.

Would be v interested to hear from those around in 2007 about this race.

It probably saw the lowest first round vote shares we'll ever see- my very brief reading on it was that Hilary Benn & Alan Johnson both bombed and did worse than expected, and Harriet essentially won because of her strength with the membership

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Labour_Party_deputy_leadership_election

[CumbrianLefty]

There has been muttering about Labour's deputy leadership at least since George Brown's unhappy time in the post, and very likely before that too.

But trying to get rid of it now would look like a factional move, just as it did with that botched effort to do so under Corbyn - we will only be unburdened of it when there is a broad consensus to do so.

[CumbrianLefty]

And as far as the 2007 deputy contest is concerned, Alan Johnson was actually the big favourite to win but took victory for granted and ran a distinctly lazy and uninspired campaign. Sound familiar at all?

[Blair]

Harriet Harman retiring. Despite having many opinions about her she will be a lose for Parliament.

Others retiring include Barry Sherman, Margaret Hodge and Alex Cunningham. I expect we’ll see a fair few more- boundary changes, the stress of the last 5 years and the safe knowledge that they can hand over to successors of their choice will all be a factor.

[TheTide]

Harriet Harman retiring. Despite having many opinions about her she will be a lose for Parliament.

Others retiring include Barry Sherman, Margaret Hodge and Alex Cunningham. I expect we’ll see a fair few more- boundary changes, the stress of the last 5 years and the safe knowledge that they can hand over to successors of their choice will all be a factor.

The less said about Harman's second acting spell as leader the better.

[CumbrianLefty]

Harriet Harman retiring. Despite having many opinions about her she will be a lose for Parliament.

Others retiring include Barry Sherman, Margaret Hodge and Alex Cunningham. I expect we’ll see a fair few more- boundary changes, the stress of the last 5 years and the safe knowledge that they can hand over to successors of their choice will all be a factor.

The less said about Harman's second acting spell as leader the better.

Indeed, execrably bad. And very much a contrast to her first.

[YL]

The less said about Harman's second acting spell as leader the better.

Indeed, execrably bad. And very much a contrast to her first.

How much do you think that was responsible for Corbyn winning the leadership?  (As opposed to the campaigns of Burnham, Cooper and Kendall.)

[CumbrianLefty]

It played a significant part, beyond doubt.

Though those campaigns also reflected the collective psychosis that had overtook most of the PLP that Labour had lost in 2015 because Ed M was some insane left winger.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

In terms of leadership, is the Shadow chancellor nor the deputy leader generaly considerd the better office for those with leadership ambitions ?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There has been muttering about Labour's deputy leadership at least since George Brown's unhappy time in the post, and very likely before that too.

After he finally resigned in 1968 there was a very awkward situation where he was at once both the Deputy Leader and also a hostile backbencher. Which was not ideal.

But trying to get rid of it now would look like a factional move, just as it did with that botched effort to do so under Corbyn - we will only be unburdened of it when there is a broad consensus to do so.

Right now it wouldn't look exactly factional as neither Starmer nor Rayner are factional figures in any meaningful sense, but it would look like a power grab and (worse) it would look petty. As you say it would have to be done as part of a widely-trailed process and I suspect also with the full consent of the incumbent whoever that might be.

[Blair]

In terms of leadership, is the Shadow chancellor nor the deputy leader generaly considerd the better office for those with leadership ambitions ?

Generally yes- its historically a default job & one where you make enemies but there's a sense that if you do well it's a sign you're a talented politician.

It doesn't take much to be a decent Shadow Education or Health Minister for example. 

Historically (with a v small sample size) the most effective way to win is to actually have a mid-ranking role where you don't piss people off but where you get to appear on TV & do a lot of the party functions (there's a reason Keir visited something like 50 Labour MPs in the 2019 General Election- he had a job that let him!)

The less said about Harman's second acting spell as leader the better.

Indeed, execrably bad. And very much a contrast to her first.

How much do you think that was responsible for Corbyn winning the leadership?  (As opposed to the campaigns of Burnham, Cooper and Kendall.)

Taking the liberty of answering but I'd say she played a big role in electing Corbyn with the decision to abstain on the Welfare Bill- iirc the bill cut tax credits (one of the defining achievements of New Labour) and so was baffling on many levels.*

It was suggested it was done because she wanted to torpedo Andy but I think she honestly got pulled up in that post 2015 panic. I think people forget how utterly destroyed the party was. At least in 2019 people had prepared for a bad result!

*It's wrong to say Burnham would have won without it though- the tide was already beginning to turn & the signs of a strong result for Corbyn were certainly emerging before. It's forgotten that Diane Abbott would have came 3rd under OMOV in 2010.

[CumbrianLefty]

A rather distant 3rd, but yeah.

Of course a Corbyn win in 2015 but by only a modest margin was maybe the ultimate "banter" result.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1470822969010184192
Might take some of the wind out of the sails of his fans given how extreme their support of anti-covid measures havve become.

[Blair]

He’s always had views like this- although the part about unity is a load of rubbish.

[CumbrianLefty]

Actually the Labour left are split a few ways on this - some (like Burgon) have been Zero Covid fans whilst others have tended to general scepticism over government powers (even if not in as extreme a fashion as Jez's brother, whose crankery on this is a genuine fringe position)