This Once Great Movement Of Ours
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Author Topic: This Once Great Movement Of Ours  (Read 146696 times)
Blair
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« Reply #1475 on: September 24, 2021, 02:41:39 PM »

It's pretty clear that the basic problem here is suddenly springing the idea on everyone out of nowhere, which is generally a terrible idea as everyone high up in THIGMOO has a massive ego and like the sense that they're being respected. It's all starting to seem very like the attempt to abolish the Deputy post back in 2019.

The hilarious fact about 2019 was that it would have pasted if the Chair (who was from the left) was in post, rather than the Vice Chair (from Unison) who declared the motion out of order. At least that nearly worked!

It really doesn’t help to have our major organisational reforms started at what is essentially seen by many as a four day holiday revolving around a piss up. This is something that could be changed and would make a difference!

It’s like the family trying to arrange the will on the drive at the start of the holiday.
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Pericles
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« Reply #1476 on: September 24, 2021, 07:39:39 PM »

This is a good idea (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/labour-would-empower-unions-to-drive-up-wages-says-angela-rayner), and it is nice to see Labour taking inspiration from NZ Labour (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/125059465/government-announces-fair-pay-agreements-plan-in-radical-overhaul-of-new-zealand-employment-laws). I get the sense that policy-wise, Starmer is pretty similar to Jacinda Ardern, doing stuff like this, and so it's the same moderate left-wing style. That would be great progress for the UK, NZ for example reversed decades worth of benefit cuts in this year's budget and child poverty has decreased since 2017, but there are disappointments too such as the failure to solve the housing crisis. Some policy sacrifices do have to be made, given Jacinda got 50% of the vote in hindsight she made slightly too many but oh well, but even this type of Labour government will make a big difference towards reducing inequality.
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Blair
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« Reply #1477 on: September 25, 2021, 03:01:31 AM »

This was what was expected before this weeks madness and would stop a pure SCG candidate getting on the ballot and makes a lot more sense than using the EC to block it.

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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1478 on: September 25, 2021, 05:46:06 AM »

The proposed 25% MP threshold for leadership elections looks too high, and will likely be negotiated downwards. Unless the galaxy brains around Starmer decide otherwise, of course Roll Eyes
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GoTfan
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« Reply #1479 on: September 25, 2021, 06:01:11 AM »

The proposed 25% MP threshold for leadership elections looks too high, and will likely be negotiated downwards. Unless the galaxy brains around Starmer decide otherwise, of course Roll Eyes

It does seem more than a little like it's a purposeful measure to prevent another candidate gliding in on a handful of MP nominations then winning the membership vote in a landslide.
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Blair
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« Reply #1480 on: September 25, 2021, 07:03:18 AM »

The proposed 25% MP threshold for leadership elections looks too high, and will likely be negotiated downwards. Unless the galaxy brains around Starmer decide otherwise, of course Roll Eyes

And with Angela Eagle tabling the amendment down to 20% you could say it’s planned!

I don’t think it’s as big a deal as people say it is- sure it makes it harder for someone unpopular from the socialist campaign group to run (it’s forgotten by lazy coverage but Abbott and McDonnell had a rather nasty falling out in 2010 when they both tried to run as the ‘left candidate.’ as Mac was a lot more unpopular then) but there’s always a lot of creativity that goes into getting enough nominations and someone from the left who does the obvious things (does CLP dinners, finds a good issue to campaign on, isn’t a prick etc) can win. I still think the likely outcome is the SCH flock around Angela but that’s another issue.

It actually harms the unconstructed right the most; they barely got 10% for Jess Phillips.

Of course it’s all academic considering we don’t know how many MPs we’ll have, who they will be and who will retire etc.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1481 on: September 25, 2021, 07:16:54 AM »

Well would rather it went back to 15%, but can live with 20% I suppose.

And too many people miss what really happened with Corbyn in 2015 - the now commonly accepted wisdom is that he was got over the line by MPs almost frivolously "lending" him their nominations in order to "broaden the debate". In actual fact, what really motivated those parliamentarians was the pressure from their members who were horrified how dismal the contest had been up to then. And let's not forget, Harman didn't drop her "bombshell" until *after* nominations closed. Without that, Jez still might not have won.
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GoTfan
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« Reply #1482 on: September 25, 2021, 09:14:55 AM »

Well would rather it went back to 15%, but can live with 20% I suppose.

And too many people miss what really happened with Corbyn in 2015 - the now commonly accepted wisdom is that he was got over the line by MPs almost frivolously "lending" him their nominations in order to "broaden the debate". In actual fact, what really motivated those parliamentarians was the pressure from their members who were horrified how dismal the contest had been up to then. And let's not forget, Harman didn't drop her "bombshell" until *after* nominations closed. Without that, Jez still might not have won.

I was unaware of that part. I'd always assumed that Khan and the late Jo Cox had it right when they said the only reason they nominated him was to broaden the debate.

Was it accepted that Corbyn would even be the SCG flagbearer by then?
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #1483 on: September 25, 2021, 09:53:38 AM »

The whole affair has turned out to be absolutely classic THIGMOO. Vintage stuff. The trouble is that it's really a much less viable way of going about things these days than it was in the 1970s or even the 1990s.
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Blair
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« Reply #1484 on: September 25, 2021, 11:36:26 AM »

The whole affair has turned out to be absolutely classic THIGMOO. Vintage stuff. The trouble is that it's really a much less viable way of going about things these days than it was in the 1970s or even the 1990s.

And I worry that as usual people will very much take the wrong lessons from this saga & convince themselves it was a success.
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Pericles
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« Reply #1485 on: September 25, 2021, 03:49:54 PM »

What is THIGMOO?
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Conservatopia
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« Reply #1486 on: September 25, 2021, 04:13:35 PM »


I'm sure one of our resident Labourites would explain it better than this nasty Tory could but it means "This Great Movement of Ours" and refers to the wider labour/trades union movement.  I suspect Al is using it semi ironically to refer to the infighting and factionism that sadly plagues the Labour Party and has been a tradition nearly from the start.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #1487 on: September 25, 2021, 06:17:28 PM »

It was a coinage of this country's greatest political journalist, the late Alan Watkins, who had a close but ambiguous relationship with the Labour Party and wider Labour Movement. He was responsible for some other frequently used expressions as well, including The Men In Grey Suits. It is sometimes incorrectly rendered as TIGMOO, which makes no sense and also just doesn't sound as funny as THIGMOO.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1488 on: September 26, 2021, 04:23:59 AM »

Well would rather it went back to 15%, but can live with 20% I suppose.

And too many people miss what really happened with Corbyn in 2015 - the now commonly accepted wisdom is that he was got over the line by MPs almost frivolously "lending" him their nominations in order to "broaden the debate". In actual fact, what really motivated those parliamentarians was the pressure from their members who were horrified how dismal the contest had been up to then. And let's not forget, Harman didn't drop her "bombshell" until *after* nominations closed. Without that, Jez still might not have won.

I was unaware of that part. I'd always assumed that Khan and the late Jo Cox had it right when they said the only reason they nominated him was to broaden the debate.

Was it accepted that Corbyn would even be the SCG flagbearer by then?

Well they were always likely to say that, rather than the more truthful "we were s***ing it because of how abysmal the leadership contest had been up to then, something the wider party had noticed".

Though it will forever be hilarious that one of JC's "strategic" nominations was........Neil Coyle.
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Hnv1
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« Reply #1489 on: September 26, 2021, 04:26:25 AM »

Is the UK in the middle of a massive energy and supply crisis? from the goings of the Labour conference it doesn't seem so
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1490 on: September 26, 2021, 04:29:14 AM »

Is the UK in the middle of a massive energy and supply crisis? from the goings of the Labour conference it doesn't seem so

Party conferences are generally a bit like that tbf. Though this crisis could be set to hit maximum intensity during the Tory gathering next week, which would be grimly amusing.
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afleitch
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« Reply #1491 on: September 26, 2021, 04:53:19 AM »

Is the UK in the middle of a massive energy and supply crisis? from the goings of the Labour conference it doesn't seem so

Party conferences are generally a bit like that tbf. Though this crisis could be set to hit maximum intensity during the Tory gathering next week, which would be grimly amusing.

How many more open goals do you think Starmer will be allowed to miss?
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Blair
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« Reply #1492 on: September 26, 2021, 05:18:47 AM »
« Edited: September 26, 2021, 05:26:00 AM by Blair »

Nature is healing as we’re back to arguments about rather shouty comments made at a fringe by a senior politician. (In this case Angela Rayner)

Is the UK in the middle of a massive energy and supply crisis? from the goings of the Labour conference it doesn't seem so

Party conferences are generally a bit like that tbf. Though this crisis could be set to hit maximum intensity during the Tory gathering next week, which would be grimly amusing.

How many more open goals do you think Starmer will be allowed to miss?

To the leaderships credit they did handle the National Insurance rise well and did so by avoiding going into a discussion about what Labour would do instead- as stupid and boneheaded as the last week has been I don’t think avoiding a Labour row about the EC would have changed anything or changed the coverage.

The nature and design of Labours conferences make it very hard for avoid rows or divisions when you’re trying to reform the party.

Edit: case and in point being R***e D******* as an issue bought up by Marr this morning.
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Blair
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« Reply #1493 on: September 26, 2021, 05:24:37 AM »

I wonder what would happen if the party rejected it. If you think we’re broke now…

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H. Ross Peron
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« Reply #1494 on: September 26, 2021, 05:28:40 AM »

How comparable is Rayner calling Tories "scum" to Bevan's famous "lower than vermin" statement?
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1495 on: September 26, 2021, 05:33:40 AM »

I wonder what would happen if the party rejected it. If you think we’re broke now…



There is of course zero chance of this actually happening.

(indeed, cynics might suggest that is why Momentum are taking the "luxury" of opposing it)
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Pericles
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« Reply #1496 on: September 26, 2021, 05:42:49 AM »

The lead up to Starmer's speech is looking like a mess, so a lot of pressure is being placed on this one speech to save his leadership. I don't see him overcoming the pressure. I hope he succeeds, but if he doesn't, he should consider putting the party first as Andrew Little did in NZ and letting someone more charismatic and capable take over. That kind of selflessness (not that selfless since Little wouldn't have become a Minister if he led Labour to a crushing defeat) is rare in politics so it'll either have to be somehow a forced change or since it's Labour limp onto another defeat knowing that they're not presenting the strongest possible alternative.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1497 on: September 26, 2021, 05:45:57 AM »

How comparable is Rayner calling Tories "scum" to Bevan's famous "lower than vermin" statement?

A (perhaps literal) one day wonder. And it has given people the opportunity to exhume Johnson's litany of past comments (eg "bum boys" and "piccaninny smiles") so maybe not even bad overall.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #1498 on: September 26, 2021, 06:23:29 AM »

Is the UK in the middle of a massive energy and supply crisis? from the goings of the Labour conference it doesn't seem so

Conference hasn't really changed from how it functioned in the 1970s. The bulk of the agenda is set well in advance and usually reflects the long-term obsessions of particular TU General Secretaries and groups of CLPs. Wrangling over rules changes and policy positions remains essentially public and is conditional on a process of negotiation and brokerage that is rarely subtle and often involves performative skullduggery and surely unnecessary chest-beating, and the less said about how things unfold on the floor the better. It's also always ten times more fraught when Labour is in opposition than when it is in government.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1499 on: September 26, 2021, 06:39:32 AM »

Conference has passed (against the wishes of the leadership) a motion giving CLPs much more power over by-election selections - this has in large part been motivated by the Hartlepool fiasco.
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