SB 23-17: End of Affirmative Action in Atlasia Act (At Final Vote)

[S019]

Also, just a PSA for uninformed lefties, this bill is actually a very neutered version of lfromnj's initial proposal. At this point it's basically a $10 billion grant to the education system.

I. Any Publicly funded college or university in Atlasia is hereby banned from using race, or gender as a factor in admissions in any form after 2030., this line is the issue, changing it from "a factor" to "the only factor" or just striking this clause entirely is the best solution. This clause is the main issue with this bill.

[Former President tack50]

First off, this wouldn't work because in a lot of schools in the US you don't have a declared major until halfway through college - forcing specialization early is something I strongly disagree with. Also this would be even worse - as people would start choosing majors in things they aren't actually interested in in order to get admissions into a certain school. This is already a problem with the current system; doing that would only make it far far worse.

Well, I would disagree that specialization from the start of college is too early or a bad thing. We are talking about 18 year olds here, not 10 year olds. People should join university with a declared major, knowing that in 4 years they will hold a "College degree on X". In fact I oppose the concept of "core subjects" but that is just a tangent here and not really related to the bill. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree on this.

As for people choosing majors in things they aren't actually interested to get admitted to a certain school, is that really a problem? I would assume people would choose their major first and then go to whichever school admits them for that major and not the other way around?

I certainly do not know anyone who would have preferred to study something they hate at a "good" university than their preferred degree; but at a "mediocre" university. I will say I do know people who had to study something they didn't really like, but that is because their score was too low to get to it anywhere (access scores, while they differ throughout the country, do not vary that much)

[OBD]

Also, just a PSA for uninformed lefties, this bill is actually a very neutered version of lfromnj's initial proposal. At this point it's basically a $10 billion grant to the education system.

I. Any Publicly funded college or university in Atlasia is hereby banned from using race, or gender as a factor in admissions in any form after 2030., this line is the issue, changing it from "a factor" to "the only factor" or just striking this clause entirely is the best solution. This clause is the main issue with this bill.

Actually I retract my initial comment partially - I thought the House version used the "only factor" language. That said, I oppose this change. As I mentioned earlier, race should not be a factor in college admissions - income and personal background as factors will do more than enough to compensate for 'systemic discrimination' if any.

[S019]

Also, just a PSA for uninformed lefties, this bill is actually a very neutered version of lfromnj's initial proposal. At this point it's basically a $10 billion grant to the education system.

I. Any Publicly funded college or university in Atlasia is hereby banned from using race, or gender as a factor in admissions in any form after 2030., this line is the issue, changing it from "a factor" to "the only factor" or just striking this clause entirely is the best solution. This clause is the main issue with this bill.

Actually I retract my initial comment partially - I thought the House version used the "only factor" language. That said, I oppose this change. As I mentioned earlier, race should not be a factor in college admissions - income and personal background as factors will do more than enough to compensate for 'systemic discrimination' if any.

That was the Blair Amendment, I believe, and I think it was defeated, iirc. Either way, this bill won't pass with its current language, people who support it should propose an amendment striking Clause 1.

[fhtagn]

Also, just a PSA for uninformed lefties, this bill is actually a very neutered version of lfromnj's initial proposal. At this point it's basically a $10 billion grant to the education system.

I. Any Publicly funded college or university in Atlasia is hereby banned from using race, or gender as a factor in admissions in any form after 2030., this line is the issue, changing it from "a factor" to "the only factor" or just striking this clause entirely is the best solution. This clause is the main issue with this bill.

It shouldn't be a factor, especially since it doesn't really affect anything today. There are other factors that actually affect one's education that should be addressed. Race isn't one of them.

[S019]

Also, just a PSA for uninformed lefties, this bill is actually a very neutered version of lfromnj's initial proposal. At this point it's basically a $10 billion grant to the education system.

I. Any Publicly funded college or university in Atlasia is hereby banned from using race, or gender as a factor in admissions in any form after 2030., this line is the issue, changing it from "a factor" to "the only factor" or just striking this clause entirely is the best solution. This clause is the main issue with this bill.

It shouldn't be a factor, especially since it doesn't really affect anything today. There are other factors that actually affect one's education that should be addressed. Race isn't one of them.

This bill isn't passing as written, if you want to save some of it, I'd recommend striking Clause 1.

[Former President tack50]

On a sidenote, we are at 2 pages already and debate has not even started. The only other time I have seen as much debate in the Senate was when I introduced my semi-meme train bill lol

[OBD]

Also, just a PSA for uninformed lefties, this bill is actually a very neutered version of lfromnj's initial proposal. At this point it's basically a $10 billion grant to the education system.

I. Any Publicly funded college or university in Atlasia is hereby banned from using race, or gender as a factor in admissions in any form after 2030., this line is the issue, changing it from "a factor" to "the only factor" or just striking this clause entirely is the best solution. This clause is the main issue with this bill.

It shouldn't be a factor, especially since it doesn't really affect anything today. There are other factors that actually affect one's education that should be addressed. Race isn't one of them.

This bill isn't passing as written, if you want to save some of it, I'd recommend striking Clause 1.

That's like ordering a meatless steak at a restaurant. There's little point passing this bill without Clause 1, even in its diminished form.

[S019]

Also, just a PSA for uninformed lefties, this bill is actually a very neutered version of lfromnj's initial proposal. At this point it's basically a $10 billion grant to the education system.

I. Any Publicly funded college or university in Atlasia is hereby banned from using race, or gender as a factor in admissions in any form after 2030., this line is the issue, changing it from "a factor" to "the only factor" or just striking this clause entirely is the best solution. This clause is the main issue with this bill.

It shouldn't be a factor, especially since it doesn't really affect anything today. There are other factors that actually affect one's education that should be addressed. Race isn't one of them.

This bill isn't passing as written, if you want to save some of it, I'd recommend striking Clause 1.

That's like ordering a meatless steak at a restaurant. There's little point passing this bill without Clause 1, even in its diminished form.

Well there is the education funding, etc., but simply put, the bill isn't passing as written. So, it's up to this bill's supporters if they want to salvage the other clauses or not. Also regarding meatless steak, the choice here is meatless steak (aka substitute/lab steak) or its no steak-related products at all.

[fhtagn]

Also, just a PSA for uninformed lefties, this bill is actually a very neutered version of lfromnj's initial proposal. At this point it's basically a $10 billion grant to the education system.

I. Any Publicly funded college or university in Atlasia is hereby banned from using race, or gender as a factor in admissions in any form after 2030., this line is the issue, changing it from "a factor" to "the only factor" or just striking this clause entirely is the best solution. This clause is the main issue with this bill.

It shouldn't be a factor, especially since it doesn't really affect anything today. There are other factors that actually affect one's education that should be addressed. Race isn't one of them.

This bill isn't passing as written, if you want to save some of it, I'd recommend striking Clause 1.

That's like ordering a meatless steak at a restaurant. There's little point passing this bill without Clause 1, even in its diminished form.

Well there is the education funding, etc., but simply put, the bill isn't passing as written. So, it's up to this bill's supporters if they want to salvage the other clauses or not. Also regarding meatless steak, the choice here is meatless steak (aka substitute/lab steak) or its no steak-related products at all.

You aren't a Senator. You get no say in that, nor will your opinion ever influence a currently sitting Senator.

Also worth pointing out, since you clearly paid no attention to the House debate, the education funding was the compromise that allowed this bill to pass with bipartisan support.

[Former President tack50]

You aren't a Senator. You get no say in that, nor will your opinion ever influence a currently sitting Senator.

Also worth pointing out, since you clearly paid no attention to the House debate, the education funding was the compromise that allowed this bill to pass with bipartisan support.

I mean, as an actual sitting Senator I welcome all debate and input, including that from the general public and other officeholders

[Sestak]

As for people choosing majors in things they aren't actually interested to get admitted to a certain school, is that really a problem? I would assume people would choose their major first and then go to whichever school admits them for that major and not the other way around?

Not when the top of the top universities carry such good name recognition and clout that they can get you into to a wide range of jobs no matter what your actual major is. Maybe it works differently somewhere that doesn't have that distinction idk.


Also there are PLENTY of people who choose to study something they aren't interested in because it looks good or whatever.


And also this brings me to another point on this. If you are admitting people to specifically, let's say, a physics program. Ideally, you want students who are really interested in physics and capable of doing something with the learning you offer. However, instead, learning or doing physics beyond the "normal high school" level is actually punished under your system because the more time you spend on subjects you actually care about the less time you will spend studying for the One Big Exam that actually gets you into stuff.

[Former President tack50]

As for people choosing majors in things they aren't actually interested to get admitted to a certain school, is that really a problem? I would assume people would choose their major first and then go to whichever school admits them for that major and not the other way around?

Not when the top of the top universities carry such good name recognition and clout that they can get you into to a wide range of jobs no matter what your actual major is. Maybe it works differently somewhere that doesn't have that distinction idk.


Also there are PLENTY of people who choose to study something they aren't interested in because it looks good or whatever.


And also this brings me to another point on this. If you are admitting people to specifically, let's say, a physics program. Ideally, you want students who are really interested in physics and capable of doing something with the learning you offer. However, instead, learning or doing physics beyond the "normal high school" level is actually punished under your system because the more time you spend on subjects you actually care about the less time you will spend studying for the One Big Exam that actually gets you into stuff.

Well, that is an argument for a more egalitarian college system I suppose. Doesn't that apply to only the top of the top of universities? Like just the top 1% or something like that?

I do know tons of people study something they don't really like because it looks good, their parents did it, it carries a good reputation or whatever, but I don't think such a model makes things any worse (or better)

As for the actual point, I certainly believe all students should learn roughly the same level of stuff. In any case, a student that wants to go the extra mile probably is rewarded by teachers in class (leading to higher scores) and also will benefit from learning more once he gets into college, making his life easier.

I will also not that the "One big exam" model tends to be the rule and not the exception to my knowledge

[Esteemed Jimmy]

I support this bill.

Reiterating this now that I'm senator.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

On a sidenote, we are at 2 pages already and debate has not even started. The only other time I have seen as much debate in the Senate was when I introduced my semi-meme train bill lol

Good times!

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

I said I want to sponsor this bill. Peanut, can you acknowledge that?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Part of the problem is this never got placed on the 23rd Senate noticeboard and thus I overlooked it several times.

Just for the sake of moving things along an although I don't like meddling in the VP threads, but I will call 24 hours to object to LT's sponsorship motion.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

LT is now sponsor.

[Peanut]

That he is.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Okay, I am going to seize control of this temporarily. I have placed this in slot 11.


LT what is next here?

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

I'll move for a final vote if there aren't other concerns.

[S019]

There are many issues with this bill and it is irresponsible for the Senator to move forward with it without addressing the issues that have been voiced in this thread. For starters, maybe Clause 1 should be struck, just maybe...

[Esteemed Jimmy]

No objections.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Senators have 24 hours to object.

There are many issues with this bill and it is irresponsible for the Senator to move forward with it without addressing the issues that have been voiced in this thread. For starters, maybe Clause 1 should be struck, just maybe...

"Is the objection signed by a Senator?" - Al Gore.

[Former President tack50]

I see no point on striking section 1 as it is the whole point of the bill