COVID-19 Megathread 5: The Trumps catch COVID-19

[Del Tachi]

At my job today, I had a maskless customer who told us that employees should not be wearing masks anymore, as a return to normalcy.

I think a lot of people out there consider masking to be a reminder of how bad things were, and they want to put it behind them.

This is certainly true, but there are also many who have believed this entire time that the entire pandemic was a hoax, and that masks have been used as an instrument of control by the "experts", Democrats, the media, and the Deep State.

I think its pretty obvious that those who simply believe the reaction was overblown (and are thus itching to get "back to normal") vastly outnumber those who think Xi Jinping cooked this up in a lab with Bill Gates, or whatever.  Unfortunately many have attached the "conspiracy" label to both.   

[emailking]

I have to apologize for ever doubting the sincerity of forumlurker.  I was, and still am, disgusted at the sacrifice of civil liberties over a moderately severe virus.  However, at least he stands by his convictions. It is truly amazing to see all of the liberals here and elsewhere that were crying out in outrage when conservatives picketed outside the Michigan state capitol now disappear.  They were committing mass murder back then for going outside!  The silence during the last week and a half of the riots/protests is truly deafening.  I now know I was right to doubt the intentions of so many “stay inside” people.  Don’t ever act like you care about the public health at this point.  We will never trust you again.

This is like saying that liberals should send their tax cuts back to the Treasury. Ya'll won on the lockdowns. They're over. It's not just you that get to go out now.

[Green Line]

I have to apologize for ever doubting the sincerity of forumlurker.  I was, and still am, disgusted at the sacrifice of civil liberties over a moderately severe virus.  However, at least he stands by his convictions. It is truly amazing to see all of the liberals here and elsewhere that were crying out in outrage when conservatives picketed outside the Michigan state capitol now disappear.  They were committing mass murder back then for going outside!  The silence during the last week and a half of the riots/protests is truly deafening.  I now know I was right to doubt the intentions of so many “stay inside” people.  Don’t ever act like you care about the public health at this point.  We will never trust you again.

This is like saying that liberals should send their tax cuts back to the Treasury. Ya'll won on the lockdowns. They're over. It's not just you that get to go out now.

As long as you agree that you’re a hypocrite, I support you going out to your heart’s extent.

[Calthrina950]

At my job today, I had a maskless customer who told us that employees should not be wearing masks anymore, as a return to normalcy.

I think a lot of people out there consider masking to be a reminder of how bad things were, and they want to put it behind them.

This is certainly true, but there are also many who have believed this entire time that the entire pandemic was a hoax, and that masks have been used as an instrument of control by the "experts", Democrats, the media, and the Deep State.

I think its pretty obvious that those who simply believe the reaction was overblown (and are thus itching to get "back to normal") vastly outnumber those who think Xi Jinping cooked this up in a lab with Bill Gates, or whatever.  Unfortunately many have attached the "conspiracy" label to both.   

I certainly agree with you here. One of my co-workers, who is a former computer engineer, was talking to me at length today about it. He said that the whole approach to coronavirus by our officials and by experts was flawed, based on misinformation (or lack of adequate information). He also made an interesting distinction between "scientists" and "engineers", saying that the two classes have approached coronavirus in different ways.

"Scientists", who may not have practical experience in the "real" world outside of working in a laboratory, are inclined to think that if a measure is not 100% effective against fighting the virus, then it is not worth pursuing, whereas "engineers" believe that if a measure is even 80% or 90% effective, then its benefits outweigh the costs. He used this when discussing the conflicting guidelines officials gave over masks. From his view, a more practical approach to this virus would have spared us many of the problems that we have been confronted with.

[Del Tachi]

At my job today, I had a maskless customer who told us that employees should not be wearing masks anymore, as a return to normalcy.

I think a lot of people out there consider masking to be a reminder of how bad things were, and they want to put it behind them.

This is certainly true, but there are also many who have believed this entire time that the entire pandemic was a hoax, and that masks have been used as an instrument of control by the "experts", Democrats, the media, and the Deep State.

I think its pretty obvious that those who simply believe the reaction was overblown (and are thus itching to get "back to normal") vastly outnumber those who think Xi Jinping cooked this up in a lab with Bill Gates, or whatever.  Unfortunately many have attached the "conspiracy" label to both.   

I certainly agree with you here. One of my co-workers, who is a former computer engineer, was talking to me at length today about it. He said that the whole approach to coronavirus by our officials and by experts was flawed, based on misinformation (or lack of adequate information). He also made an interesting distinction between "scientists" and "engineers", saying that the two classes have approached coronavirus in different ways.

"Scientists", who may not have practical experience in the "real" world outside of working in a laboratory, are inclined to think that if a measure is not 100% effective against fighting the virus, then it is not worth pursuing, whereas "engineers" believe that if a measure is even 80% or 90% effective, then its benefits outweigh the costs. He used this when discussing the conflicting guidelines officials gave over masks. From his view, a more practical approach to this virus would have spared us many of the problems that we have been confronted with.

Engineers

Two engineering students were walking across a university campus when one said, “Where did you get such a great bike?” 

The second engineer replied, “Well, I was walking along yesterday, minding my own business, when a beautiful woman rode up on this bike, threw it to the ground, took off all her clothes and said, “Take what you want.” 

The first engineer nodded approvingly and said, “Good choice; the clothes probably wouldn’t have fit you anyway.”

Don't list to these guys.  Engineers are often way too keen to only seek the most conventional solutions.  If you want a good CBA, call an economist

Unlike an engineer, an economist would recognize that a treatment only effective 50% of the time could be better than a treatment effective 90% of the time if it's substantially less costly to implement

[emailking]

As long as you agree that you’re a hypocrite, I support you going out to your heart’s extent.

I don't think I am. I said I thought the lockdowns were unconstitutional and that I was worried the protests could lead to outbreaks before anyone else in the thread did. I also think people should have stayed home during the lockdowns. I'm more conflicted on the protests. But the half the posters in this thread are arguing this should all be over and done with now so you can't have it both ways.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

And in any case, it is not hypocritical to make a conscious decision that certain causes or principles are worth risking your life over.

Yeah, like going to church?

As long as everyone is wearing a mask (except the preacher obviously when speaking), I wouldn’t criticize someone for attending a religious service right now.

[Person Man]

And in any case, it is not hypocritical to make a conscious decision that certain causes or principles are worth risking your life over.

Yeah, like going to church?

As long as everyone is wearing a mask (except the preacher obviously when speaking), I wouldn’t criticize someone for attending a religious service right now.

At this point, there's either nothing we can do or we have nothing to worry about .

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

And in any case, it is not hypocritical to make a conscious decision that certain causes or principles are worth risking your life over.

None of these people are risking their lives. They are risking the lives of their parents and likely grandparents, especially the poorest ones.

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/PeterGleick/status/1269427804946305025

[Koharu]

https://twitter.com/rollwthepunches/status/1268045610898292736?s=20
https://twitter.com/rollwthepunches/status/1268045613003923456?s=20

And one as a screenshot instead because language:

[Grassroots]

LOL @ blaming the police for a new COVID spike. A new low for the left.

[Koharu]

As for religious services, Christians, who are being the most vocal, have no mandate to attend services in their religious text. Other religions which do have a mandate almost immediately spoke out, absolving people of the mandate, knowing that preserving the lives of their members is the best way to allow worship to continue.

While missing out on the social aspect is very disappointing, and for religions for which there is a mandate for communal worship it must feel wrong at times, the health and safety of worshippers should be the first concern of those leading. If we, as religious people, are willing to put aside the safety of our own congregants for the sake of tradition and the comfort of routine, what kind of statement are we making to those who do not follow our faith? It comes off as extremely entitled and selfish.

That said, at this point I do believe limited services (25% capacity) with leaders enforcing social distancing and mask wearing would be acceptable and on-par with business reopenings. Outdoor services with social distancing are also an option that should be explored.

[lfromnj]

Nope as long as tens of thousands of people are protesting in the streets, anyone has the right to go to church.

[Koharu]

Nope as long as tens of thousands of people are protesting in the streets, anyone has the right to go to church.

No one is going to stop then if they go if their church allows them to attend. It's just dangerous for them and especially congregants that are in higher risk groups.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

People should go where they want, just wear a damn mask.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Just did the weekly shopping (which is pretty much the only thing that gets me out of my neighborhood these days) and noticed the percentage of mask-wearing shoppers is way down from previous weeks, perhaps 20-25% of them were masked.

[Mr. Morden]

Not sure if this has already been posted here or in another thread, but more than 1000 health professionals signed a letter supporting the BLM protests, but saying that *other* protests are still not good from a coronavirus perspective:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-letter-protests-coronavirus-trnd/index.html

"However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from demonstrators' ability to gather and demand change. This should not be confused with a permissive stance on all gatherings, particularly protests against stay-home orders."

[Crumpets]

Just did the weekly shopping (which is pretty much the only thing that gets me out of my neighborhood these days) and noticed the percentage of mask-wearing shoppers is way down from previous weeks, perhaps 20-25% of them were masked.

In contrast, in Seattle I'd estimate we're still at around 60-70% mask wearing when in a public business.

[Calthrina950]

Not sure if this has already been posted here or in another thread, but more than 1000 health professionals signed a letter supporting the BLM protests, but saying that *other* protests are still not good from a coronavirus perspective:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-letter-protests-coronavirus-trnd/index.html

"However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from demonstrators' ability to gather and demand change. This should not be confused with a permissive stance on all gatherings, particularly protests against stay-home orders."

Of course, I'm sure their stance will change when it is a protest touching upon one of their "pet" issues. Using their logic, one could argue that protests for abortion rights and against global warming are for combating threats to the "national public health."

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

I understand it's a difficult decision but at health experts need to be transparent and accurate about transmission risks from the protests.

I have seen one scientist try to do this so far, but it's pretty obviously he was low-balling numbers and missing considerations like tertiary infections. Otherwise there are blanket statements about how police brutality is bad (which is obviously correct but is an incomplete assessment of the situation).

You can make the case that the protests are worth the public health risks, but you need to be honest with people about what those risks are. That's your job and your literal expertise. Most of these people haven't even tried to do that because they know they will be cowed into silence if they try to do so.

All I want is for someone to give me an accurate number of people who will get sick and die from these protests, and then make the case that the protests are worth that much at least.

[It’s so Joever]

Not sure if this has already been posted here or in another thread, but more than 1000 health professionals signed a letter supporting the BLM protests, but saying that *other* protests are still not good from a coronavirus perspective:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-letter-protests-coronavirus-trnd/index.html

"However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from demonstrators' ability to gather and demand change. This should not be confused with a permissive stance on all gatherings, particularly protests against stay-home orders."

This is what happens when political culture silences the majority of experts who do disagree with these protests. Let’s be honest, if a healthcare worker or epidemiologist said anything even slightly against these protests, he/she would be the target of a witch-hunting mob and would possibly lose their job.
We really are living in a post-factual society on both sides at this point.

[Progressive Pessimist]

Nope as long as tens of thousands of people are protesting in the streets, anyone has the right to go to church.

Churches and other buildings for worship are cramped, indoor environments though. It's not entirely comparable.

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1269762435713556481

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1269762435713556481

I feel like Nate should know better than to publicize side-by-side graphs that all have a different y-axis scale.