Death of the Stag - ASOIAF Game - Sign Up and OOC Thread

[GoTfan]

Its more Tywin than Renly, he would under no circumstances allow Renly or Stannis to live. His grandchildren would never be safe

That's the other side of it.

[DKrol]

Renly alliance is a bit much...

Agreed

Yes, it makes anyone in that alliance almost impossible to beat.

I've thought about the Renly alliance quite a bit. From what I've seen via PM, I'm comfortable allowing it but will be watching carefully.

Also if Cersei doesn't have duskendale or rosby, where did that host come from? She has almost as many men as I do lol, and the Riverlands are one of the most populated regions in the realm, I'd say second after the reach.

Cersei, defending the capital during a rebellion, has rallied her maximum number of troops without Lords like Duskendale and Rosby joining in. You failed to send in any orders and have done nothing to increase your troop totals.

[leonardothered]

Yeah but the 10000 was what she started with, and she ha none in the canon, just 300 Lannister guardsmen. It's kind of a huge issue for her and Tyrion. I'm not saying she gets nothing for game purposes but in hindsight pretty excessive. The 6000 City watch was already increased from 2000 to that number at strained capacity

Id also add, who raised and leads them? There are no notable knights or lords left in King's Landing to have done so. I'm not saying to take them away now, but this is about to become a complete beat down XD

[windjammer]

As if the Cersei alliance is going to remain stable with a literal degenerate going to soon be fully king.

And gotfan and Leonardo, weren't you the people who made "Stannis backing Viserys" happen?

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

As if the Cersei alliance is going to remain stable with a literal degenerate going to soon be fully king.

And gotfan and Leonardo, weren't you the people who made "Stannis backing Viserys" happen?

Doesn’t make them wrong about the Renly-Joff thing being game-breakingly OOC.  Also, that was a different game with a different GM.  Dkrolga made a point of saying that he was going to enforce IC behavior using the books as his guide.  One could argue against a number of the alliances and actions this past turn don't meet that standard...but one could just as easily argue (and rightly so imo) that a mod should generally air on the side of letting players do what they want, especially since there is at least a kernel of justification for such things.  For example, unlikely as the Martell-Baratheon thing may be, one could argue that Doran did all sorts of things in the books to give the appearance of being pro-Lannister and thus this wouldn't be game-breakingly OOC. 

However, I don't really see what even the kernel of canon-based rationale could be for Renly bending the knee to Joffrey.  It's like, 100% OOC.  Not only that, but I'd argue that the bigger problem is that the alliance is game-breakingly OOC.  The Lannister-Baratheon side was already a bit over-powered in this game, but if things stand as they are then the game is likely over for all intents and purposes given that it's likely gonna be a curb-stomp no matter what happens.  Hence, I'd argue that Renly bending the knee to Joffrey right now is not merely OOC, but game-breakingly OOC.

I guess that's really the difference between this and the Stannis-Viserys alliance from the other game.  Yes, that one was pretty OOC, but it also wasn't game-breaking.  In other words, it didn't more or less end the game for everyone not in a particular alliance - one which was already a bit OP, I should add - after one turn whereas the Renly-Joffrey alliance does precisely that.  Obviously, it's Dkrolga's call, but I'd definitely argue for a GM override in this case given the likelihood that the alliance will likely end the game for all practical purposes in 2-3 turns at most no matter what the other players do.

[windjammer]

As if the Cersei alliance is going to remain stable with a literal degenerate going to soon be fully king.

And gotfan and Leonardo, weren't you the people who made "Stannis backing Viserys" happen?

Doesn’t make them wrong about the Renly-Joff thing being game-breakingly OOC.

It doesn't but they are still wrong. He's facing a huge army at his doorstep with no ally. Renly is definitely not some kind of suicide guy.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

As if the Cersei alliance is going to remain stable with a literal degenerate going to soon be fully king.

And gotfan and Leonardo, weren't you the people who made "Stannis backing Viserys" happen?

Doesn’t make them wrong about the Renly-Joff thing being game-breakingly OOC.

It doesn't but they are still wrong. He's facing a huge army at his doorstep with no ally. Renly is definitely not some kind of suicide guy.

I just significantly expanded the post you quoted, but my point stands.  

With all due respect, I really think GOTFan and Leonardo are definitely in the right on this one, as well as regarding Leo's point about Cersei being OP in this game to begin with (as Leonardo says, it's an important plot point in the books that she's got only 300 or so men in KL, whereas here Cersei started with 10,000).  I mean, you're kinda proving his point by acknowledging that the deck is already stacked so heavily in favor of the Lannister-Tyrell-Joffrey forces that there's basically no way anyone else can avoid a curb-stomp except joining said alliance.  Hence, the "game-breaking" part of "game-breakingly OOC."  The balance of power has simply ceased to exist in any meaningful sense.

[windjammer]

As if the Cersei alliance is going to remain stable with a literal degenerate going to soon be fully king.

And gotfan and Leonardo, weren't you the people who made "Stannis backing Viserys" happen?

Doesn’t make them wrong about the Renly-Joff thing being game-breakingly OOC.

It doesn't but they are still wrong. He's facing a huge army at his doorstep with no ally. Renly is definitely not some kind of suicide guy.

I just significantly expanded the post you quoted, but my point stands.  

With all due respect, I really think GOTFan and Leonardo are definitely in the right on this one, as well as regarding Leo's point about Cersei being OP in this game to begin with (as Leonardo says, it's an important plot point in the books that she's got only 300 or so men in KL, whereas here Cersei started with 10,000).  I mean, you're kinda proving his point by acknowledging that the deck is already stacked so heavily in favor of the Lannister-Tyrell-Joffrey forces that there's basically no way anyone else can avoid a curb-stomp except joining said alliance.  Hence, the "game-breaking" part of "game-breakingly OOC."  The balance of power has simply ceased to exist in any meaningful sense.

I will be honest with you, I find MY actions and Ypestis' actions to an extent much more controversial than jackson's actions. Renly has always been a risk averse politician banking on the tyrells before doing anything. With the Tyrells gone, what could he do? Making an alliance with the Martells? Too late they are backing Joffrey. Making an alliance with the starks? They are being completely sacked by the greyjoys,... Renly has no support, backing joffrey and waiting for an opportunity to emerge is his only choice.

Me backing Joffrey and Blair marrying Arianne with Tommen are the controversial actions. Not jacksonhitchcock trying to save his ass.

[Kingpoleon]

I have a much bigger problem with the Martell-Lannister-Tyrell alliance. I mean, that’s three Great Houses that absolutely despise each other. As it was, the Tyrell’s got two seats on the Small Council and a Queen, only doing so after Renly died. I don’t really think it’s realistic for all three of those to form an alliance when they all are huge rivals.

[Orwell]

I have a much bigger problem with the Martell-Lannister-Tyrell alliance. I mean, that’s three Great Houses that absolutely despise each other. As it was, the Tyrell’s got two seats on the Small Council and a Queen, only doing so after Renly died. I don’t really think it’s realistic for all three of those to form an alliance when they all are huge rivals.

I will say this, I think the Lannister-Tyrell-Martell alliance sort of makes sense in a weird way, Myrcella is the most eligible "bachelorette" in the 7k, and establishing close ties to the Tyrells are necessary for Joff to stay on the throne, as we remember from the OTL WotFK The Lannisters are practically screwed until the death of Renly and the Tyrell's turning coat, and fighting for the Lannisters at the Blackwater. For the Martells the marriage between Arriane and Tommen may seem strange at first, but seeing what we know about Doran from the books on how he tried to manipulate Arrianne, I think him marrying Arrianne to Tommen accomplishes his goal of allowing Arriane to succeed him as Princess of Dorne and it could also lul the Lannisters into a sense of trust with the Martell's which book Doran at least seemed to want from them. Just my two cents however.

[windjammer]

I have a much bigger problem with the Martell-Lannister-Tyrell alliance. I mean, that’s three Great Houses that absolutely despise each other. As it was, the Tyrell’s got two seats on the Small Council and a Queen, only doing so after Renly died. I don’t really think it’s realistic for all three of those to form an alliance when they all are huge rivals.

And keep in mind it's more a "non aggressive pact" than anything else. I'm not committing troops for anyone.

[DKrol]

I am at a point where I'm not sure what to do. I see the points raised by many players, in regards to character developments and structural choices I've made in the game, and I agree with a good number of them. I don't know if its appropriate to go through and overrule them, and make changes to my own decisions, at this point. Would that cause more harm than good?

[Orwell]

I am at a point where I'm not sure what to do. I see the points raised by many players, in regards to character developments and structural choices I've made in the game, and I agree with a good number of them. I don't know if its appropriate to go through and overrule them, and make changes to my own decisions, at this point. Would that cause more harm than good?

I just say we keep it like it is

[YPestis25]

I'm fine with reducing the numbers in the Crownland's force, after all I don't think 10,000 more or less men would have effected the situation in the Stormlands. Otherwise, I am content with what you decide.

[Kingpoleon]

I am at a point where I'm not sure what to do. I see the points raised by many players, in regards to character developments and structural choices I've made in the game, and I agree with a good number of them. I don't know if its appropriate to go through and overrule them, and make changes to my own decisions, at this point. Would that cause more harm than good?

I honestly don’t know.

You have every right to veto decisions or not to, and I advise you to do what you think is best. You’re a good GM, and if you really do want any further insight from any of us, feel free to PM us. It seems a little strange for us all to just answer that question, yes or no, in this thread.

Just do whatever you think you should, taking it account what’s easiest and what’s most realistic, etc.

[Lumine]

It really is up to you Dkrol, and I don't mean that in a "not our problem" sort of way. The ASOIAF games are pretty special in that we're roleplaying as people with a specific complex psychology - a bit more so than playing nations -, and whilst one should have a sense of flexibility, one must be prepared to enforce certain standards if that means a more efficient game.

If it's of any help, the handful of times in which I've allowed "unrealistic" stuff to go through for the sake of the game I've ended up regretting it for the most part (as, rather than create a more interesting game, it seemed to cause more problems), whereas I haven't regretted blocking a few things that were arguably implausible (and the players were kind enough not to have me executed).

[leonardothered]

I really don't have issue with the alliances, but there is one certain sticking point: Tywin would never, ever allow Renly and Stannis to survive. I don't know what that means going forward, but a peace like this kind of ruins momentum and impetus for him to murder him down the line. Imagine how more elaborate this takedown will become rather than just having him branded a traitor and being done with it, I mean he's completely cornered and they can bring the Tyrell navy and just wait him out; massively OOC to not take this opportunity to take out one of the biggest threats to his line's reign; a young capable, likable adult male claimant who will certainly be fathering children soon, on Margaery Tyrell, long before his own match will be capable and therefore tarnishing his own alliance.

TLDR: It's not out of character for Renly, but completely out of character for Tywin. Can't imagine a scenario where he would allow this.

Up to your discretion but I would tend toward changing less than more, considering we don't know what's going on in people's skulls. I don't think anyone foresaw this occurring which is arguably the point of these what if scenarios. I'm fine with playing through, considering this was a pick up and play character for me anyways.

Getting back to the game, I have some PMs that need answering

[Orwell]

I really don't have issue with the alliances, but there is one certain sticking point: Tywin would never, ever allow Renly and Stannis to survive. I don't know what that means going forward, but a peace like this kind of ruins momentum and impetus for him to murder him down the line. Imagine how more elaborate this takedown will become rather than just having him branded a traitor and being done with it, I mean he's completely cornered and they can bring the Tyrell navy and just wait him out; massively OOC to not take this opportunity to take out one of the biggest threats to his line's reign; a young capable, likable adult male claimant who will certainly be fathering children soon, on Margaery Tyrell, long before his own match will be capable and therefore tarnishing his own alliance.

TLDR: It's not out of character for Renly, but completely out of character for Tywin. Can't imagine a scenario where he would allow this.

Up to your discretion but I would tend toward changing less than more, considering we don't know what's going on in people's skulls. I don't think anyone foresaw this occurring which is arguably the point of these what if scenarios. I'm fine with playing through, considering this was a pick up and play character for me anyways.

Getting back to the game, I have some PMs that need answering

Who said Tywin is going to let Renly survive?

Renly knows Tywin is gonna have him whacked, but the real question is, when/where/how. Declaring fealy to Joffrey allows Renly to not be crushed by the combined mass of Lannister-Tyrell-Martell, but it allows Lannister-Baratheon to have a nonliteral battle.   

[DKrol]

Ok. I've given this a lot of though. I am currently in the process of moving (during a global pandemic) and am focused on that. I will be back to full focus on Monday. I'm pausing the round until that time, when I will announce how we move forward at that time.

Please bear with me.

[King Saul]

Ok. I've given this a lot of though. I am currently in the process of moving (during a global pandemic) and am focused on that. I will be back to full focus on Monday. I'm pausing the round until that time, when I will announce how we move forward at that time.

Please bear with me.

Sounds the best ,good luck with the moving.

[DKrol]

A snafu with the Comcast installation delayed my posting. Apologies.

The Renly-Lannister Alliance is being overriden. After spending some time reading over PMs, refreshing myself on the cannon, and hashing it out with Thrones-loving friends, I can see no way to justify it other than "Just let the players play". A Renly-Stannis alliance, sure, but not the Renly-Lannister alliance. I don't think that either Tywin or Renly would agree to it. The Dorne-Lannister alliance can be rationalized by the cannon actions of Doran seeming to indicate fealty to the Iron Throne, while really have a cunning plan in place. As such, I'm going to override everything that has happened this turn and start Turn Two over again. I think this is the best way to have a clean slate, not clouded by actions taken when Renly and Lannister were algined.

I'm going to reset the clock on the round here. Turn Two will end at 11:59 PM on Sunday night, May 10.

[Anna Komnene]

Is there still room for another player? I'd like to try playing as Daenerys.

[DKrol]

Is there still room for another player? I'd like to try playing as Daenerys.

Absolutely. Would be glad to have you. I'll edit the Turn Two posts to put you in.

[DKrol]

The turn ends tomorrow night. As of now, I have no orders in.

[Anna Komnene]

The turn ends tomorrow night. As of now, I have no orders in.

I sent you a PM last night. Did it get lost in the ether?