.

[John Dule]

The CCP said that only 2,500 people died in Wuhan during the outbreak. But when they opened up the city to let people collect the ashes of their families and loved ones, they handed out 3,500 urns in a single day at one point. In other words, if you believe the CCP, you're a moron.

Do we know if these urns are for only Covid-19 patients?
 I would imagine a natural number of people would die during the +2 months long lockdown and that many would have also died from a probable collapse of the healthcare system (considering they did have to build hospitals just to stay afloat)
(I also imagine a number of people may have been “found dead” after breaking lockdowns.)

Factoring those deaths in, the estimate is that 40,000 people died in Wuhan alone.

[It’s so Joever]

The CCP said that only 2,500 people died in Wuhan during the outbreak. But when they opened up the city to let people collect the ashes of their families and loved ones, they handed out 3,500 urns in a single day at one point. In other words, if you believe the CCP, you're a moron.

Do we know if these urns are for only Covid-19 patients?
 I would imagine a natural number of people would die during the +2 months long lockdown and that many would have also died from a probable collapse of the healthcare system (considering they did have to build hospitals just to stay afloat)
(I also imagine a number of people may have been “found dead” after breaking lockdowns.)

Factoring those deaths in, the estimate is that 40,000 people died in Wuhan alone.

Is that according to Caixin? (the source the urn story was originally from)
40,000 makes sense but I just wanna see where they got that number.

[Person Man]

probably not, but I'd be willing to hear arguments in favor.

[parochial boy]

As much as anything, I've seen enough criticism directed at China basically all over the media in the last couple of weeks that it doesn't seem like this is necessarily going to be the great Chinese propaganda victory that was being predicted.

[urutzizu]

As much as anything, I've seen enough criticism directed at China basically all over the media in the last couple of weeks that it doesn't seem like this is necessarily going to be the great Chinese propaganda victory that was being predicted.

I think that's probably true, at least for the American/Western European market. The Li Wenliang stuff was fait accompli (which at least here got less coverage then I expected), but there was a lot of potential regardless that the Chinese Government squandered, by seriously pursuing the "American biolab" theory for a couple of days and by rushing out so fast to supply equipment that ended up being faulty, resulting in more negative PR than if none had been supplied in the first place. At the same time the Americans have probably shot themselves in the foot just as much with their behaviour towards their Allies, but that matters less to them as minds were already made up in that direction and the only thing Trump has to care about right now is the Internal audience. The Long-term effect is probably Europe pursuing more "Strategic Independence" from the US, but also decoupling from China at the same time, making this a geopolitical zero-sum game in our part of the world.

I follow some SE Asian publications, and it looks like the narrative might be different there. China does actually have a proper influence network in that part of the world of course, unlike in Europe/America where things like CGTN failed miserably. But it is probably too early for conclusions in that direction yet.

[America Needs R'hllor]

The CCP said that only 2,500 people died in Wuhan during the outbreak. But when they opened up the city to let people collect the ashes of their families and loved ones, they handed out 3,500 urns in a single day at one point. In other words, if you believe the CCP, you're a moron.

100% this and it's disappointing to see posters I respect parroting official CCP talking points

[John Dule]

The CCP said that only 2,500 people died in Wuhan during the outbreak. But when they opened up the city to let people collect the ashes of their families and loved ones, they handed out 3,500 urns in a single day at one point. In other words, if you believe the CCP, you're a moron.

Do we know if these urns are for only Covid-19 patients?
 I would imagine a natural number of people would die during the +2 months long lockdown and that many would have also died from a probable collapse of the healthcare system (considering they did have to build hospitals just to stay afloat)
(I also imagine a number of people may have been “found dead” after breaking lockdowns.)

Factoring those deaths in, the estimate is that 40,000 people died in Wuhan alone.

Is that according to Caixin? (the source the urn story was originally from)
40,000 makes sense but I just wanna see where they got that number.

Not sure what the original source was, but I read it in the latest issue of The Week.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Anyone praising China's government at this time should be viewed with extreme suspicion. They are at best an unwitting dupe and at worst an honest-to-God authoritarian.

Which category do you think Ben Norton falls under?

I'm not that familiar with him. Seems to be a standard issue alt-media outrage entrepreneur. The term yellow journalism comes to mind.

He has a fairly odd trajectory, he started out writing for Salon and AlterNet as a fairly standard progressive and actually called out the nastier elements of the left at times, like writing about how Putin's government is not anti-imperialist or neoliberal and dunking on pro-Assad shillers. Then for some reason he crossed over to shilling for Assad himself leading to him being fired from Salon and like Max Blumenthal (who was also dunking on Assad apologists in 2012) from AlterNet. So he set up a podcast and website with Blumenthal and now spends most of his time tweeting in support of various authoritarian regimes and junk that reads like a parody of edgy alt-media journalists, describing any government or politican who doesn't think Maduro is bae as "far right", "debunking" any news story that portrays authoritarian in a negative manner as "neoliberal mainstream media propaganda" while promoting RT, Sputnik and TeleSur as valid sources and has a huge hard on for defending China, dismissing any reporting on their media censorship with whataboutery about Facebook or whatever and most head spinningly spent most of the anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre screaming about how it didn't happen and was all just a neoliberal hoax because the Chinese military didn't slaughter protestors in Tiananmen Square but rather an area less than a mile away from Tiananmen Square so you see it's all a big hoax and neoliberal propaganda.

[Esteemed Jimmy]

They ignored the virus for almost 2 months and hassled people who tried to talk about it.  Had they acted with transparency, we wouldn't be where we are.  We have zero reason to believe what they tell us now because they have repeatedly lied in the past.

[SnowLabrador]

Yes. They lied about it for two months, and they deserve absolutely crippling economic sanctions.

[Grassroots]

It's not just them failing to contain, they lied about it as the virus spread to millions in the country. We all know it's true.

They used us, and the only reasonable justice is to take it in our highest priority once this is all over to make those motherf***ers pay for the blood they spilled.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

I haven't thought about global geopolitics since I was in college (mainly because I find it excruciatingly boring), so can somebody give me the case for what sanction on China would accomplish?

And I'm not pro-CCP at all; it's been pretty obvious for a month now that their fatality numbers are not to be trusted and it sounds like they absolutely botched early containment of the disease (to say nothing of the pretty salacious rumors you see cropping up on fringe websites about any nefarious intent).

I just genuinely don't understand enough about statecraft to understand what punishment would be appropriate and what ends it would achieve. Is this just about condemnation and moral outrage or is there some behavior or policy people hope to change?

Thanks in advance.

[It’s so Joever]

How are we going to get them to “pay reparations”?
Economic sanctions would be doable and would probably make people satisfied, but I don’t think we even could force China into paying direct reparations.

Also, if China is to be paying reparations for anything, it should be the Uighur genocide which is actually well documented and is truly despicable as opposed to the Covid-19 outbreak which they really did try and prevent on a national level (Hubei local officials did cover it up at first and should be punished for this)
 Plus the idea of reparations due to a pandemic is unprecedented. The US/Entente arguably covered up the Spanish Flu which may have allowed it to spread and they weren’t forced to pay reparations (actually the opposite happened because of the war) And some could argue the US covered up/downplayed the AIDS crisis, so why is this different?

I wouldn’t be opposed to some form of economic sanctions on China for a variety of reasons (Which don’t include the Covid-19 outbreak), but on the conditions that any possible anti-Asian racism in the US would be strictly punished and condemned by the current administration on national television, and that we will be increasing ties/trade with other neighboring countries, both because it makes sense economically and to prevent the emergence of another Yellow Peril.

[It’s so Joever]

Update:
Trump has recently made Instagram posts scapegoating Chinatowns despite most of our cases having come from Italy. It’s clear Trump not only will ignore, but actively encourage anti-Asian racism. With the obvious exception of completely taking back his remarks+apology, I will not support economic sanctions on China until Trump leaves office, simply for my own family’s safety. I don’t need
MAGA-tards turning a perfectly reasonable path into a dog whistle for racial harassment/scapegoating of Americans.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The US/Entente arguably covered up the Spanish Flu which may have allowed it to spread and they weren’t forced to pay reparations (actually the opposite happened because of the war)

Can people not spread weird pseudo-histories?

[It’s so Joever]

The US/Entente arguably covered up the Spanish Flu which may have allowed it to spread and they weren’t forced to pay reparations (actually the opposite happened because of the war)

Can people not spread weird pseudo-histories?

How is this a pseudo history?
Wartime censors definitely covered up the actual epidemic when it began. Most researchers believe the US or France was where the disease originated (although it still is murky) and more importantly, where it spread from. Hell, the Spanish Flu is only called Spanish Flu because Spain didn’t censor the outbreak.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

How is this a pseudo history?
Wartime censors definitely covered up the actual epidemic when it began. Most researchers believe the US or France was where the disease originated (although it still is murky) and more importantly, where it spread from. Hell, the Spanish Flu is only called Spanish Flu because Spain didn’t censor the outbreak.

Censors on both sides restricted reporting of the severity of the disease in their respective countries in order to avoid damage to morale at a critical stage in the War. That isn't the same thing as covering it up; it was well-known that there was a major outbreak of flu. The case of David Lloyd George is instructive: he contracted it on a visit to Manchester in September and nearly died. It was not possible to conceal that he was ill, but it was very easy to play down the severity and that is what was done. Note (again) that similar things occurred in the Central Powers, where, by this point, control of the press was even more extreme.

'Allowed it to spread' is even more ridiculous, and is a good example of projecting contemporary arguments on to the past. It would not have been possible for governments in 1918 to have significantly limited the spread of the disease even had there not been a war on. When that factor is considered as well, the argument reveals itself as a patent absurdity.

There is, of course, no consensus on where the disease originated and there never will be. But the American explanation is a crank theory* without serious argument in its favour. It has been heavily signal-boosted this year for political reasons.

_{*Put forward initially by a man who, great historian though he was, was a massive and notorious crank, prone to such things.}

[Velasco]

The US/Entente arguably covered up the Spanish Flu which may have allowed it to spread and they weren’t forced to pay reparations (actually the opposite happened because of the war)

Can people not spread weird pseudo-histories?

How is this a pseudo history?
Wartime censors definitely covered up the actual epidemic when it began. Most researchers believe the US or France was where the disease originated (although it still is murky) and more importantly, where it spread from. Hell, the Spanish Flu is only called Spanish Flu because Spain didn’t censor the outbreak.

Can you stop calling it Spanish Flu, then? Thank you

[538Electoral]

Yes.

[urutzizu]

The funny thing is, in terms of the numbers of direct country-to-country transmissions, the US, just like most Euro countries actually spread it far more than China ever did. Almost all of these current "second waves" in Asia, and "first waves" in the rest of the world, came from either from the US, Europe or Iran. If we actually look at which countries spread it around the world most, to the most people, through negligence or just not taking it seriously, then the best claim for reparations would go against US and Europe.  

This reminded me of of a absolutely stunning graphic in the SCMP I saw since then:



(Credit: SCMP)

This shows the Origin of Covid-19 Cases in Hong Kong. In a City which is literally part of China with a Border to the mainland that is crossed hundreds of millions of times a year. Either China's reports regarding their infection levels of Covid-19 must be relatively accurate (in that it managed to contain the Virus spread extraordinarily well), or the infection spread in Western countries is much, much worse than reported. I'd wager it's both. (The UK seems particularly bad here, even when adjusting for their strong educational/business links.)

[Duro]

First sunctions, then reparations. Any democracy should take all effort to free our planet from the notorious totalitarian communist regime.