Ask Nathan Anything: Quarantine Edition

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What is your opinion of this?
https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=416028.0

Very interesting. Assuming I'm interpreting the infoboxes correctly, there's a lot I like (homosexuality accepted but both male and female adultery shunned) and some I dislike (the purely temporal priesthood). If I were living in the actual High Middle Ages but somehow had all the social and cultural views I have now I'd probably side with this group over both the papacy and most of the IRL proto-Protestant outfits.

The temporal priesthood is for game mechanic reasons, I like to be able to appoint my entire court, including my Court Chaplain (which is a pretty important role and arguably even more than in CK2.) Otherwise it gets "appointed by the Pope/other religious head" (aka randomly generated and selected by an AI) or from the clergy meaning you also don't get to appoint such an important role.

I assumed you would be very turned off by the "Carnal Exaltation" tenet though.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I assumed you would be very turned off by the "Carnal Exaltation" tenet though.

I don't understand CK well enough to know what that means exactly, but you're right that the term itself does not inspire confidence.

[WMS]

Which flavor of Jarritos? Answers other than Tamarind are incorrect btw

Mango. Sorry.

Blasphemy.

More seriously, have you ever done a full ranking of every Pope and explained why? A big task, but I would find it extremely fascinating to see your list.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I assumed you would be very turned off by the "Carnal Exaltation" tenet though.

I don't understand CK well enough to know what that means exactly, but you're right that the term itself does not inspire confidence.

For all the major Christian and Muslim faiths in the game (and Jewish too come to think of it), the "Lustful" trait is considered a sin that hurts the character's Piety score, while the "Chaste" trait provides a boost. This inverts that, being chaste is a sin, being lustful is a virtue and gives a boost for piety.

...it ain't a perfect description of the sort of contemporary thing I was shooting for obviously but it's the closest thing the game has to sex-positive, hence why I used it.

(Also because it's beneficial from a game mechanics perspective, as you can see it increases fertility of all adherents of the religion, as does the "Lustful" trait, while "Chaste" limits fertility. So it results in characters having more kids and larger families, which provides a boost to the Dynastic Renown score.)

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I assumed you would be very turned off by the "Carnal Exaltation" tenet though.

I don't understand CK well enough to know what that means exactly, but you're right that the term itself does not inspire confidence.

For all the major Christian and Muslim faiths in the game (and Jewish too come to think of it), the "Lustful" trait is considered a sin that hurts the character's Piety score, while the "Chaste" trait provides a boost. This inverts that, being chaste is a sin, being lustful is a virtue and gives a boost for piety.

...it ain't a perfect description of the sort of contemporary thing I was shooting for obviously but it's the closest thing the game has to sex-positive, hence why I used it.

(Also because it's beneficial from a game mechanics perspective, as you can see it increases fertility of all adherents of the religion, as does the "Lustful" trait, while "Chaste" limits fertility. So it results in characters having more kids and larger families, which provides a boost to the Dynastic Renown score.)

Eh, I'm actually relatively ~sex-positive~ these days compared to most serious Catholics (although still less so than most nonreligious people or, well, hipster Christians), so I'm not as scandalized by that as I might have been a few years ago.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Which flavor of Jarritos? Answers other than Tamarind are incorrect btw

Mango. Sorry.

Blasphemy.

More seriously, have you ever done a full ranking of every Pope and explained why? A big task, but I would find it extremely fascinating to see your list.

Not all 260ish of them, no, but here's my post-1831 list (1831 because I know at least some things about the record of every Pope since then):

1. John Paul I (has a reputation as a bit of a Pope Chance the Gardener, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing; seemed like a beautiful soul who was tragicomically taken from us too soon)
2. John XXIII (normal leftcath answer; would probably be #1 except for the fact that his policy on clerical abuse seems to have made the problem worse)
3. Leo XIII (long-serving Pope who compiled a mostly conservative record without indulging in the obvious human-rights enormities of other conservative Popes; also, founder of modern Catholic social teaching)
4. Francis (could end up as high as #2 or as low as #6 or #7 depending on who succeeds him; a like-minded, competent successor could either build on his legacy or end up upstaging him, whereas an incompetent or reactionary successor could either render his legacy a dead letter or make him look flawless by comparison)
5. Benedict XV (diplomatic-minded peacenik, but his pontificate suffered from the pervasive ideological and political doldrums of the C19/early C20 papacy)
6. Pius X (gets points for personal sanctity, loses them for political and social reaction)
7. Paul VI (high highs and low lows; I approve of the way he handled most of the implementation of Vatican II, but the abuse crisis appears to have peaked on his watch)
8. Pius XI (weird cross between Leo XIII and Pius X; made some very important and powerful contributions to Catholic social teaching but also waffled on the Church's response to fascism until it was far too late)
9. Benedict XVI (if I were only taking his pontificate itself into account he'd probably actually be a bit higher, but it's become clear in recent years that in his retirement he's being used by various intriguers against his successor; I don't want to rank him any lower than this, though, because that makes me feel bad for him)
10. John Paul II (even higher highs and even lower lows than Paul VI; most of it needs no introduction, but my personal favorite thing about him is that he was probably the least personally antisemitic Pope in history)
11. Gregory XVI (archconservative, but archconservative who promulgated one of the most passionate condemnations of chattel slavery in the Christian theological tradition)

12. Pius XII (I don't buy the "Hitler's Pope" thesis about Pacelli himself, but many of the people around him were very much Hitler's Mid-Ranked Curia Staff Members; he escapes the bottom slot because he had some positive contributions as well, such as Exsul familia Nazarethana and Humani generis)
















13. Pius IX (narcissistic, delusional son of a bitch who hated Jews, hated democracy, and loved the Slave Power. 'Nuff said!)

[WMS]

That was excellent! Thank you for doing it!

Now it only whets my appetite for more! There are so many interesting figures and hearing the viewpoint of an theologically learned left Catholic like yourself helps fill in the gaps left over from my historical-based review of many, many years ago - I once read the Wikipedia articles for every Pope to try and get a better view of them.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Beautiful ranking!

For a more challenging question, who was worse: Stephen VI or Benedict IX?

[Torie]

I need to read up more on my Popes.

[WMS]

A place to start is, oddly enough, the Useful Notes section on the Popes at TV Tropes. Wait till you get to the Accidental Pope!

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Beautiful ranking!

For a more challenging question, who was worse: Stephen VI or Benedict IX?

Oh, that's tough. Benedict IX was a morally nonexistent playboy who literally bought and sold the papacy like a share of GameStop and ran what little was left of its prestige after the saeculum obscurum into the ground; Stephen VI was an unhinged maniac who's really only known for one thing, but the thing that he's known for is one of the most violent and vindictive things any Pope has ever done. I'm going with Benedict because he stuck around for longer and thus had the opportunity to do more damage. And even if we're judging them in the context of their times, the eleventh-century papacy had at least a little more moral credibility than the ninth-century papacy, so Benedict comes off worse by comparison there as well.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

To what extent can we compare the "old school" social revolutions of, say, France and Russia with the Cold War-era social revolutions of the Third World and more contemporary "urban civic revolutions"?

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Beautiful ranking!

For a more challenging question, who was worse: Stephen VI or Benedict IX?

Oh, that's tough. Benedict IX was a morally nonexistent playboy who literally bought and sold the papacy like a share of GameStop and ran what little was left of its prestige after the saeculum obscurum into the ground; Stephen VI was an unhinged maniac who's really only known for one thing, but the thing that he's known for is one of the most violent and vindictive things any Pope has ever done. I'm going with Benedict because he stuck around for longer and thus had the opportunity to do more damage. And even if we're judging them in the context of their times, the eleventh-century papacy had at least a little more moral credibility than the ninth-century papacy, so Benedict comes off worse by comparison there as well.

Benedict IX was literally younger than your current age when he became Pope (which, for Christ's sake, what the ****) so I like that you characterized him as a "playboy".
But really, the Counts of Tusculum and their ilk were all so inexorably morally decaying...

[1978 New Wave skinny trousers]

Alexander VI or Julius II?

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Alexander VI or Julius II?

> Implying the answer is not Pius III

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Alexander VI or Julius II?

At least Julius was actually good at muh politics.

[WMS]

Ok, the Accidental Pope:

“[redacted] The "Accidental" Pope. During Papal Conclaves, it was common for the cardinals to vote for someone who has no chance of actually winning the papacy on the first ballot, solely to gauge the leaning of the other voters. The strategy backfired miserably as 15 of the 16 electors (except [redacted]) all independently voted for [redacted] on the first ballot ("And the last shall be first" indeed). As pope he did a pretty good job too.”

[H. Ross Peron]

Given your takes on various First Republic Italian political parties, I'd love to see you do similar commentary on Japan's contemporary political parties.

[LabourJersey]

What's your opinion on the Book of Common Prayer (if you have one)?

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

What's your opinion on the Book of Common Prayer (if you have one)?

Oh, I adore the BCP. I have multiple copies and editions of it going back to the mid-nineteenth century. I think many versions of it are not only masterpieces of liturgical writing but a masterpieces of English literature, and having everything in one place like that is something I've greatly missed in the Catholic Church. I think the shift away from the stability and dependability of the BCP towards more up-to-the-minute and--I would argue--flash-in-the-pan liturgical forms in certain Anglican churches is a real shame; at least in America, the Episcopal Church's BCP already contains quite a bit of flexibility and alternative options for things when needed.

[1978 New Wave skinny trousers]

What's your opinion on the Book of Common Prayer (if you have one)?

Oh, I adore the BCP. I have multiple copies and editions of it going back to the mid-nineteenth century. I think many versions of it are not only masterpieces of liturgical writing but a masterpieces of English literature, and having everything in one place like that is something I've greatly missed in the Catholic Church. I think the shift away from the stability and dependability of the BCP towards more up-to-the-minute and--I would argue--flash-in-the-pan liturgical forms in certain Anglican churches is a real shame; at least in America, the Episcopal Church's BCP already contains quite a bit of flexibility and alternative options for things when needed.

You don't think all copies should be burned for heresy?

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

What's your opinion on the Book of Common Prayer (if you have one)?

Oh, I adore the BCP. I have multiple copies and editions of it going back to the mid-nineteenth century. I think many versions of it are not only masterpieces of liturgical writing but a masterpieces of English literature, and having everything in one place like that is something I've greatly missed in the Catholic Church. I think the shift away from the stability and dependability of the BCP towards more up-to-the-minute and--I would argue--flash-in-the-pan liturgical forms in certain Anglican churches is a real shame; at least in America, the Episcopal Church's BCP already contains quite a bit of flexibility and alternative options for things when needed.

You don't think all copies should be burned for heresy?

ayy lmao, this question is peak HenryWallaceVP

No, and there's a specific group of mostly very conservative Catholics that doesn't think so either.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

HenryWallaceVP once again displaying his prejudices and false assumptions about Catholics. Sad!

[I love you Henry]

In other news, I came to this realization yesterday: since your two favourite foreign countries are Italy and Japan, does that mean you really love old people?

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

HenryWallaceVP once again displaying his prejudices and false assumptions about Catholics. Sad!

[I love you Henry]

In other news, I came to this realization yesterday: since your two favourite foreign countries are Italy and Japan, does that mean you really love old people?

...kind of, yeah! Much like Pete Buttigieg, I've always been the kind of young person old people respond well to, and in a lot of cases I've reciprocated that fondness.

[1978 New Wave skinny trousers]

HenryWallaceVP once again displaying his prejudices and false assumptions about Catholics. Sad!

[I love you Henry]

In other news, I came to this realization yesterday: since your two favourite foreign countries are Italy and Japan, does that mean you really love old people?

"You know I have ever been averse to toleration of an intolerant religion" - Horace Walpole

The feeling is mutual

That's two out of the three oldest countries, but what about Germany? Oh wait...