Resist The Authoritarian Response To The Coronavirus
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T'Chenka
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« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2020, 09:15:17 PM »

i've been saying this from the beginning, big gov is trying to control us.

Nashville tried to shut down all the bars yesterday, and I'm glad one bar owner stood up for freedom and refused to close.
Anti-Quarantiners like yourself can start your own country (Florida?) and the USA will ban all entry from Anti-Quarantinelanders. Good luck with your anti-science, bro.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2020, 09:15:20 PM »

I really, really, really hate both sides of this "argument".

On one side, you have babies whining and moaning about any minor little inconvenience to their daily lives and acting like it's the end of freedom or something. On the other side you have psychopaths who think any social problem can only be dealt with the subtlety and compassion of a 1920s eugenicist.

It's really not that f**king hard. Exceptional circumstances can warrant temporary restrictions on liberty, as long as those are decided through legal and democratic means, but each such restriction needs to be weighed carefully and never violate fundamental human rights. We can quibble over where to draw the line, but let's at least acknowledge it's not a binary.
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Green Line
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« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2020, 09:41:48 PM »

I really, really, really hate both sides of this "argument".

On one side, you have babies whining and moaning about any minor little inconvenience to their daily lives and acting like it's the end of freedom or something. On the other side you have psychopaths who think any social problem can only be dealt with the subtlety and compassion of a 1920s eugenicist.

It's really not that f**king hard. Exceptional circumstances can warrant temporary restrictions on liberty, as long as those are decided through legal and democratic means, but each such restriction needs to be weighed carefully and never violate fundamental human rights. We can quibble over where to draw the line, but let's at least acknowledge it's not a binary.

Those whining about minor inconveniences, sure, totally agree.  Social distancing, cancelling large events, dispersing crowded bars and restaurants makes sense.

The shelter in place thats in effect for the Bay Area?  No.  How long are people expected to shelter in place?  6 months?  Is Mike DeWine unilaterally postponing Ohio's elections indefinitely in direct defiance of a court order okay?  No!

It's amazing to me that so many people who are clear eyed about Donald Trump's authoritarian nature are suddenly clamoring for him to take the reigns and lock us all down.  He won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him, people.  What have we learned in the last three years?
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2020, 10:21:41 PM »

Uh, well, no, if it's illegal for DeWine to postpone elections then he obviously shouldn't do so. I'm not aware of the details here, but the obvious think to do should have been to call in a special session of the legislature and let them draft emergency legislation to that effect.

As for the shelter in place order, again, I can't comment on the legality of it, and no, obviously it can't last forever, but if the pandemic really gets out in full swing then it might genuinely be the only way to save lives. Just ask Italy.

Of course, the elephant in the room of this discussion is that the government should be pumping massive amounts of cash into the economy (ideally directly into the pockets of consumers) to sustain the economic damage that the cessation of economic activity will cause, and especially to support the millions of people who aren't able to go to work anymore. Of course it won't do that, because it's against the neoliberal dogma.
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T'Chenka
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« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2020, 10:48:12 PM »

Of course, the elephant in the room of this discussion is that the government should be pumping massive amounts of cash into the economy (ideally directly into the pockets of consumers) to sustain the economic damage that the cessation of economic activity will cause, and especially to support the millions of people who aren't able to go to work anymore. Of course it won't do that, because it's against the neoliberal dogma.
Economic advisor: "Mr. President, Leader McConnell, I PROMISE you that the recommended guidelines for economic stability under market-crashing health emergencies is to implement socialism. You need to give poor people free money NOW!"

Poor b__tard will probably end in Guantanamo for saying that
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ProudModerate2
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« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2020, 10:48:19 PM »

... It's amazing to me that so many people who are clear eyed about Donald Trump's authoritarian nature are suddenly clamoring for him to take the reigns and lock us all down.  He won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him, people.  What have we learned in the last three years?

Are you listening to yourself?
It's the doctors, scientists and health specialists that are proposing policies of "locking us all down."
And remember, it's just not donald trump that is taking extreme measures to control the spread of this pandemic. It's governors of states and mayors of cities (of both parties). It's also governments and heads-of-state of most of the other world nations. This isnt some world-wide conspiracy of the nation's leaders to grab somekind of power from the people (and not give it back).

I mean, what do you mean when you say "(trump) won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him." Define exactly what "power" he wont return to us. The power not to go to bars and restaurants any more after this is all over? Cant go to a baseball game, or Broadway musical any more?
Tell me EXACTLY what you fear here; be specific.
Because all this "authoritarian" talk is extreme nonsense.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2020, 10:50:37 PM »

Of course, the elephant in the room of this discussion is that the government should be pumping massive amounts of cash into the economy (ideally directly into the pockets of consumers) to sustain the economic damage that the cessation of economic activity will cause, and especially to support the millions of people who aren't able to go to work anymore. Of course it won't do that, because it's against the neoliberal dogma.
Economic advisor: "Mr. President, Leader McConnell, I PROMISE you that the recommended guidelines for economic stability under market-crashing health emergencies is to implement socialism. You need to give poor people free money NOW!"

Poor b__tard will probably end in Guantanamo for saying that

This isn't even socialism, it's run-of-the-mill Keynesianism.
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T'Chenka
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« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2020, 10:53:51 PM »

Of course, the elephant in the room of this discussion is that the government should be pumping massive amounts of cash into the economy (ideally directly into the pockets of consumers) to sustain the economic damage that the cessation of economic activity will cause, and especially to support the millions of people who aren't able to go to work anymore. Of course it won't do that, because it's against the neoliberal dogma.
Economic advisor: "Mr. President, Leader McConnell, I PROMISE you that the recommended guidelines for economic stability under market-crashing health emergencies is to implement socialism. You need to give poor people free money NOW!"

Poor b__tard will probably end in Guantanamo for saying that

This isn't even socialism, it's run-of-the-mill Keynesianism.
Do you think Trump will understand the difference?
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2020, 10:54:53 PM »

Of course, the elephant in the room of this discussion is that the government should be pumping massive amounts of cash into the economy (ideally directly into the pockets of consumers) to sustain the economic damage that the cessation of economic activity will cause, and especially to support the millions of people who aren't able to go to work anymore. Of course it won't do that, because it's against the neoliberal dogma.
Economic advisor: "Mr. President, Leader McConnell, I PROMISE you that the recommended guidelines for economic stability under market-crashing health emergencies is to implement socialism. You need to give poor people free money NOW!"

Poor b__tard will probably end in Guantanamo for saying that

This isn't even socialism, it's run-of-the-mill Keynesianism.
Do you think Trump will understand the difference?

No. I wanted to make sure you did.
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ProudModerate2
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« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2020, 11:07:34 PM »

I don't usually say things like this, but those of you decrying the "authoritarian" response are nuts.

Give the government control to totally shut down your social life, keep you indoors, etc and good luck ever putting that back into its box ...

Again, what exactly does that mean?
What freedoms/rights that are temporarily proposed or being taken away from us at this time, do you fear that they will not "put back into its box."
Be specific.
This is really all nutty to me. I just cant believe I'm reading some of this, from some of you.
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Green Line
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« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2020, 11:11:33 PM »

... It's amazing to me that so many people who are clear eyed about Donald Trump's authoritarian nature are suddenly clamoring for him to take the reigns and lock us all down.  He won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him, people.  What have we learned in the last three years?

Are you listening to yourself?
It's the doctors, scientists and health specialists that are proposing policies of "locking us all down."
And remember, it's just not donald trump that is taking extreme measures to control the spread of this pandemic. It's governors of states and mayors of cities (of both parties). It's also governments and heads-of-state of most of the other world nations. This isnt some world-wide conspiracy of the nation's leaders to grab somekind of power from the people (and not give it back).

I mean, what do you mean when you say "(trump) won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him." Define exactly what "power" he wont return to us. The power not to go to bars and restaurants any more after this is all over? Cant go to a baseball game, or Broadway musical any more?
Tell me EXACTLY what you fear here; be specific.
Because all this "authoritarian" talk is extreme nonsense.

I'm sorry that you don't think the ability to leave your house and partake in those activities you listed matters.  Many other people in this country would disagree.  You can't give a time period for the this is "all over", of course.  6 months from now?  12 months from now?  When tens of thousands of companies have liquidated because no economic activity is occuring?  The concern of doctors and scientists right now is singularly focused on saving the elderly, admirable.  We elect public officials to balance many competing interests and act in the best interests of everyone.
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T'Chenka
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« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2020, 11:13:35 PM »

I don't usually say things like this, but those of you decrying the "authoritarian" response are nuts.

Give the government control to totally shut down your social life, keep you indoors, etc and good luck ever putting that back into its box ...

Again, what exactly does that mean?
What freedoms/rights that are temporarily proposed or being taken away from us at this time, do you fear that they will not "put back into its box."
Be specific.
This is really all nutty to me. I just cant believe I'm reading some of this, from some of you.
I think the idea is that the police and military follow instructions to keep communities in lockdown until the government decides that "the area is coronavirus-free", which would actually mean that the community has agreed to further government control in some way to "protect" people... surveillance? Surveillance is only a good excuse against terrprists, not a virus. Maybe it's the vaccine? Everybody in area must receive the vaccine to end quarantine, but the vaccine has tracker GPS nanobots in it so the government can track and control you.


That's the best I can come up with without smoking crack.
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T'Chenka
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« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2020, 11:15:51 PM »

... It's amazing to me that so many people who are clear eyed about Donald Trump's authoritarian nature are suddenly clamoring for him to take the reigns and lock us all down.  He won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him, people.  What have we learned in the last three years?

Are you listening to yourself?
It's the doctors, scientists and health specialists that are proposing policies of "locking us all down."
And remember, it's just not donald trump that is taking extreme measures to control the spread of this pandemic. It's governors of states and mayors of cities (of both parties). It's also governments and heads-of-state of most of the other world nations. This isnt some world-wide conspiracy of the nation's leaders to grab somekind of power from the people (and not give it back).

I mean, what do you mean when you say "(trump) won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him." Define exactly what "power" he wont return to us. The power not to go to bars and restaurants any more after this is all over? Cant go to a baseball game, or Broadway musical any more?
Tell me EXACTLY what you fear here; be specific.
Because all this "authoritarian" talk is extreme nonsense.

I'm sorry that you don't think the ability to leave your house and partake in those activities you listed matters.  Many other people in this country would disagree.  You can't give a time period for the this is "all over", of course.  6 months from now?  12 months from now?  When tens of thousands of companies have liquidated because no economic activity is occuring?  The concern of doctors and scientists right now is singularly focused on saving the elderly, admirable.  We elect public officials to balance many competing interests and act in the best interests of everyone.
What he's asking you is this: WHY would the government want to control you in this way? Governments only want to control people if there's a BENEFIT for them in doing so. Kerping you loked in your house crashes the economy and doesn't help them acheive any hypothetical sinister goal. There's no benefit.
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Green Line
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« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2020, 11:24:33 PM »

... It's amazing to me that so many people who are clear eyed about Donald Trump's authoritarian nature are suddenly clamoring for him to take the reigns and lock us all down.  He won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him, people.  What have we learned in the last three years?

Are you listening to yourself?
It's the doctors, scientists and health specialists that are proposing policies of "locking us all down."
And remember, it's just not donald trump that is taking extreme measures to control the spread of this pandemic. It's governors of states and mayors of cities (of both parties). It's also governments and heads-of-state of most of the other world nations. This isnt some world-wide conspiracy of the nation's leaders to grab somekind of power from the people (and not give it back).

I mean, what do you mean when you say "(trump) won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him." Define exactly what "power" he wont return to us. The power not to go to bars and restaurants any more after this is all over? Cant go to a baseball game, or Broadway musical any more?
Tell me EXACTLY what you fear here; be specific.
Because all this "authoritarian" talk is extreme nonsense.

I'm sorry that you don't think the ability to leave your house and partake in those activities you listed matters.  Many other people in this country would disagree.  You can't give a time period for the this is "all over", of course.  6 months from now?  12 months from now?  When tens of thousands of companies have liquidated because no economic activity is occuring?  The concern of doctors and scientists right now is singularly focused on saving the elderly, admirable.  We elect public officials to balance many competing interests and act in the best interests of everyone.
What he's asking you is this: WHY would the government want to control you in this way? Governments only want to control people if there's a BENEFIT for them in doing so. Kerping you loked in your house crashes the economy and doesn't help them acheive any hypothetical sinister goal. There's no benefit.

There are multiple things going on here.  We just had a primary election illegally cancelled tonight because of virus concerns.  Whatever the motives were, bad actors (Trump or other) can jump on the mass hysteria and use these kinds of precendents for their own gain.  You'd better hope to God there's not some kind of natural disaster/pandemic in November.  Trump may try to postpone or cancel the election.  And what will you say, thats fine?

Second, the "doctors, scientists and health specialists" he referenced calling for total lockdowns of the country are not concerned about our civil liberties.  They are also not concerned about the economic fallout.  They are singularly focused stopping the virus.  I'll ask it again.  What's an acceptable amount of time to shelter in place.  What if they say we need to do it for 6 months?  12 months? 18 months? We have posters on here and people in the media implying just that, and how dare anyone question it.  At some point, you don't just go, "BUT THE DOCTORS SAID WE HAD TO DO IT".  This is why our public officials need to balance multiple interests.  They don't just blindly follow one piece of advice.
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Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin
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« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2020, 11:29:04 PM »

So we went from complaining about Republicans calling this a hoax to Democrats, once a response is being made, to effectively calling the response a hoax.


The Trump maladministration response certainly should be considered one. I'm giving the various state governors and governments as much benefit of the doubt as I can. But the Trump admin blew any credibility they had long ago. Trump & co should be considered as actively hostile to the nation and the public. Whether through criminality and treason or stupidity and incompetence doesn't really matter.  
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T'Chenka
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« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2020, 11:34:10 PM »

... It's amazing to me that so many people who are clear eyed about Donald Trump's authoritarian nature are suddenly clamoring for him to take the reigns and lock us all down.  He won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him, people.  What have we learned in the last three years?

Are you listening to yourself?
It's the doctors, scientists and health specialists that are proposing policies of "locking us all down."
And remember, it's just not donald trump that is taking extreme measures to control the spread of this pandemic. It's governors of states and mayors of cities (of both parties). It's also governments and heads-of-state of most of the other world nations. This isnt some world-wide conspiracy of the nation's leaders to grab somekind of power from the people (and not give it back).

I mean, what do you mean when you say "(trump) won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him." Define exactly what "power" he wont return to us. The power not to go to bars and restaurants any more after this is all over? Cant go to a baseball game, or Broadway musical any more?
Tell me EXACTLY what you fear here; be specific.
Because all this "authoritarian" talk is extreme nonsense.

I'm sorry that you don't think the ability to leave your house and partake in those activities you listed matters.  Many other people in this country would disagree.  You can't give a time period for the this is "all over", of course.  6 months from now?  12 months from now?  When tens of thousands of companies have liquidated because no economic activity is occuring?  The concern of doctors and scientists right now is singularly focused on saving the elderly, admirable.  We elect public officials to balance many competing interests and act in the best interests of everyone.
What he's asking you is this: WHY would the government want to control you in this way? Governments only want to control people if there's a BENEFIT for them in doing so. Kerping you loked in your house crashes the economy and doesn't help them acheive any hypothetical sinister goal. There's no benefit.

There are multiple things going on here.  We just had a primary election illegally cancelled tonight because of virus concerns.  Whatever the motives were, bad actors (Trump or other) can jump on the mass hysteria and use these kinds of precendents for their own gain.  You'd better hope to God there's not some kind of natural disaster/pandemic in November.  Trump may try to postpone or cancel the election.  And what will you say, thats fine?

Second, the "doctors, scientists and health specialists" he referenced calling for total lockdowns of the country are not concerned about our civil liberties.  They are also not concerned about the economic fallout.  They are singularly focused stopping the virus.  I'll ask it again.  What's an acceptable amount of time to shelter in place.  What if they say we need to do it for 6 months?  12 months? 18 months? We have posters on here and people in the media implying just that, and how dare anyone question it.  At some point, you don't just go, "BUT THE DOCTORS SAID WE HAD TO DO IT".  This is why our public officials need to balance multiple interests.  They don't just blindly follow one piece of advice.
Pelosi and the Supreme Court will not allow Trump to cancel the election. Delay the election slightly? If the circumstances actually call for that and Pelosi and Supreme Court agree, then sure why not.

We will lockdown for 18 months if necessary, and as soon as we realize that tjat is the reality, we'll have people coming up with new strategies to help the economy and social lives improve. Skype may become WAY more popular. Some sportd MAY start up again like MMA with empty crowds but broadcast to TV watchers. Online casinos will get more popular. Some new animated movies might get green-lit where voice actors and animators can self-isolate while they make the movie, and they can go straight to VOD or Netflix. We'll find a way.
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2020, 11:37:00 PM »

This entire thread is proof America is a failure of a country when it comes to disease response. Your freedom won’t matter when your family is dead and your lungs are damaged for life.
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Green Line
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« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2020, 11:39:45 PM »

... It's amazing to me that so many people who are clear eyed about Donald Trump's authoritarian nature are suddenly clamoring for him to take the reigns and lock us all down.  He won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him, people.  What have we learned in the last three years?

Are you listening to yourself?
It's the doctors, scientists and health specialists that are proposing policies of "locking us all down."
And remember, it's just not donald trump that is taking extreme measures to control the spread of this pandemic. It's governors of states and mayors of cities (of both parties). It's also governments and heads-of-state of most of the other world nations. This isnt some world-wide conspiracy of the nation's leaders to grab somekind of power from the people (and not give it back).

I mean, what do you mean when you say "(trump) won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him." Define exactly what "power" he wont return to us. The power not to go to bars and restaurants any more after this is all over? Cant go to a baseball game, or Broadway musical any more?
Tell me EXACTLY what you fear here; be specific.
Because all this "authoritarian" talk is extreme nonsense.

I'm sorry that you don't think the ability to leave your house and partake in those activities you listed matters.  Many other people in this country would disagree.  You can't give a time period for the this is "all over", of course.  6 months from now?  12 months from now?  When tens of thousands of companies have liquidated because no economic activity is occuring?  The concern of doctors and scientists right now is singularly focused on saving the elderly, admirable.  We elect public officials to balance many competing interests and act in the best interests of everyone.
What he's asking you is this: WHY would the government want to control you in this way? Governments only want to control people if there's a BENEFIT for them in doing so. Kerping you loked in your house crashes the economy and doesn't help them acheive any hypothetical sinister goal. There's no benefit.

There are multiple things going on here.  We just had a primary election illegally cancelled tonight because of virus concerns.  Whatever the motives were, bad actors (Trump or other) can jump on the mass hysteria and use these kinds of precendents for their own gain.  You'd better hope to God there's not some kind of natural disaster/pandemic in November.  Trump may try to postpone or cancel the election.  And what will you say, thats fine?

Second, the "doctors, scientists and health specialists" he referenced calling for total lockdowns of the country are not concerned about our civil liberties.  They are also not concerned about the economic fallout.  They are singularly focused stopping the virus.  I'll ask it again.  What's an acceptable amount of time to shelter in place.  What if they say we need to do it for 6 months?  12 months? 18 months? We have posters on here and people in the media implying just that, and how dare anyone question it.  At some point, you don't just go, "BUT THE DOCTORS SAID WE HAD TO DO IT".  This is why our public officials need to balance multiple interests.  They don't just blindly follow one piece of advice.
Pelosi and the Supreme Court will not allow Trump to cancel the election. Delay the election slightly? If the circumstances actually call for that and Pelosi and Supreme Court agree, then sure why not.

We will lockdown for 18 months if necessary, and as soon as we realize that tjat is the reality, we'll have people coming up with new strategies to help the economy and social lives improve. Skype may become WAY more popular. Some sportd MAY start up again like MMA with empty crowds but broadcast to TV watchers. Online casinos will get more popular. Some new animated movies might get green-lit where voice actors and animators can self-isolate while they make the movie, and they can go straight to VOD or Netflix. We'll find a way.

Ah, yes.  We will learn to love our state enforced 18+ month isolation.  I'm sure.  You people are -insane-, and its frightening.
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lfromnj
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« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2020, 11:40:03 PM »

... It's amazing to me that so many people who are clear eyed about Donald Trump's authoritarian nature are suddenly clamoring for him to take the reigns and lock us all down.  He won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him, people.  What have we learned in the last three years?

Are you listening to yourself?
It's the doctors, scientists and health specialists that are proposing policies of "locking us all down."
And remember, it's just not donald trump that is taking extreme measures to control the spread of this pandemic. It's governors of states and mayors of cities (of both parties). It's also governments and heads-of-state of most of the other world nations. This isnt some world-wide conspiracy of the nation's leaders to grab somekind of power from the people (and not give it back).

I mean, what do you mean when you say "(trump) won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him." Define exactly what "power" he wont return to us. The power not to go to bars and restaurants any more after this is all over? Cant go to a baseball game, or Broadway musical any more?
Tell me EXACTLY what you fear here; be specific.
Because all this "authoritarian" talk is extreme nonsense.

I'm sorry that you don't think the ability to leave your house and partake in those activities you listed matters.  Many other people in this country would disagree.  You can't give a time period for the this is "all over", of course.  6 months from now?  12 months from now?  When tens of thousands of companies have liquidated because no economic activity is occuring?  The concern of doctors and scientists right now is singularly focused on saving the elderly, admirable.  We elect public officials to balance many competing interests and act in the best interests of everyone.
What he's asking you is this: WHY would the government want to control you in this way? Governments only want to control people if there's a BENEFIT for them in doing so. Kerping you loked in your house crashes the economy and doesn't help them acheive any hypothetical sinister goal. There's no benefit.

There are multiple things going on here.  We just had a primary election illegally cancelled tonight because of virus concerns.  Whatever the motives were, bad actors (Trump or other) can jump on the mass hysteria and use these kinds of precendents for their own gain.  You'd better hope to God there's not some kind of natural disaster/pandemic in November.  Trump may try to postpone or cancel the election.  And what will you say, thats fine?

Second, the "doctors, scientists and health specialists" he referenced calling for total lockdowns of the country are not concerned about our civil liberties.  They are also not concerned about the economic fallout.  They are singularly focused stopping the virus.  I'll ask it again.  What's an acceptable amount of time to shelter in place.  What if they say we need to do it for 6 months?  12 months? 18 months? We have posters on here and people in the media implying just that, and how dare anyone question it.  At some point, you don't just go, "BUT THE DOCTORS SAID WE HAD TO DO IT".  This is why our public officials need to balance multiple interests.  They don't just blindly follow one piece of advice.
Pelosi and the Supreme Court will not allow Trump to cancel the election. Delay the election slightly? If the circumstances actually call for that and Pelosi and Supreme Court agree, then sure why not.

We will lockdown for 18 months if necessary, and as soon as we realize that tjat is the reality, we'll have people coming up with new strategies to help the economy and social lives improve. Skype may become WAY more popular. Some sportd MAY start up again like MMA with empty crowds but broadcast to TV watchers. Online casinos will get more popular. Some new animated movies might get green-lit where voice actors and animators can self-isolate while they make the movie, and they can go straight to VOD or Netflix. We'll find a way.

No we will not be locking down for 18 months and anyone that thinks the vast majority of Americans can handle that is insane.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2020, 11:40:41 PM »

The State of Oregon today banned gatherings of more than 25 people, including churches. This is probably extremely unconstitutional. But considering the Courts are mostly shut down there's not a whole lot we could do about it. The Archbishop was not happy, but decided to comply with the state order and suspended the public celebration of Mass. It would seem imprudent to invoke a call for civil disobedience under the circumstances and, if undertaken, very well could get people killed.

I'm frustrated with the whole thing too. It seems especially severe that the state can shut down activities explicitly protected in the constitution while allowing commerce to largely continue. But here we are waiting for the doom. I wonder how people of centuries past felt waiting out plagues. I bet many of them still went to church. But alas that's not a priority these days.

As somber as is the above, it seems reckless, even indecent, to consider going out to a bar or restaurant with things in this state. If we have a fund to make up whatever lost revenue local businesses face from this, I would gladly put in my couple hundred dollars or whatever I would have spent during the quarantines. I doubt something like that will be organized though. What's harder is the isolation of living at home, working at home, church banned, all social functions cancelled etc etc. I hope we can all grow in virtue from this experience and become less selfish because of not having our way for a while. This is a good time to pray for our country and all those affected by this, and confess and do penance for our sins as best as we are able without the sacraments.
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lfromnj
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« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2020, 11:42:30 PM »

The State of Oregon today banned gatherings of more than 25 people, including churches. This is probably extremely unconstitutional. But considering the Courts are mostly shut down there's not a whole lot we could do about it. The Archbishop was not happy, but decided to comply with the state order and suspended the public celebration of Mass. It would seem imprudent to invoke a call for civil disobedience under the circumstances and, if undertaken, very well could get people killed.

I'm frustrated with the whole thing too. It seems especially severe that the state can shut down activities explicitly protected in the constitution while allowing commerce to largely continue. But here we are waiting for the doom. I wonder how people of centuries past felt waiting out plagues. I bet many of them still went to church. But alas that's not a priority these days.

As somber as is the above, it seems reckless, even indecent, to consider going out to a bar or restaurant with things in this state. If we have a fund to make up whatever lost revenue local businesses face from this, I would gladly put in my couple hundred dollars or whatever I would have spent during the quarantines. I doubt something like that will be organized though. What's harder is the isolation of living at home, working at home, church banned, all social functions cancelled etc etc. I hope we can all grow in virtue from this experience and become less selfish because of not having our way for a while. This is a good time to pray for our country and all those affected by this, and confess and do penance for our sins as best as we are able without the sacraments.
One idea to continue to support local businesses is to buy gift cards for that business right now so they can keep the cash flow up.
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T'Chenka
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« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2020, 11:46:02 PM »

... It's amazing to me that so many people who are clear eyed about Donald Trump's authoritarian nature are suddenly clamoring for him to take the reigns and lock us all down.  He won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him, people.  What have we learned in the last three years?

Are you listening to yourself?
It's the doctors, scientists and health specialists that are proposing policies of "locking us all down."
And remember, it's just not donald trump that is taking extreme measures to control the spread of this pandemic. It's governors of states and mayors of cities (of both parties). It's also governments and heads-of-state of most of the other world nations. This isnt some world-wide conspiracy of the nation's leaders to grab somekind of power from the people (and not give it back).

I mean, what do you mean when you say "(trump) won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him." Define exactly what "power" he wont return to us. The power not to go to bars and restaurants any more after this is all over? Cant go to a baseball game, or Broadway musical any more?
Tell me EXACTLY what you fear here; be specific.
Because all this "authoritarian" talk is extreme nonsense.

I'm sorry that you don't think the ability to leave your house and partake in those activities you listed matters.  Many other people in this country would disagree.  You can't give a time period for the this is "all over", of course.  6 months from now?  12 months from now?  When tens of thousands of companies have liquidated because no economic activity is occuring?  The concern of doctors and scientists right now is singularly focused on saving the elderly, admirable.  We elect public officials to balance many competing interests and act in the best interests of everyone.
What he's asking you is this: WHY would the government want to control you in this way? Governments only want to control people if there's a BENEFIT for them in doing so. Kerping you loked in your house crashes the economy and doesn't help them acheive any hypothetical sinister goal. There's no benefit.

There are multiple things going on here.  We just had a primary election illegally cancelled tonight because of virus concerns.  Whatever the motives were, bad actors (Trump or other) can jump on the mass hysteria and use these kinds of precendents for their own gain.  You'd better hope to God there's not some kind of natural disaster/pandemic in November.  Trump may try to postpone or cancel the election.  And what will you say, thats fine?

Second, the "doctors, scientists and health specialists" he referenced calling for total lockdowns of the country are not concerned about our civil liberties.  They are also not concerned about the economic fallout.  They are singularly focused stopping the virus.  I'll ask it again.  What's an acceptable amount of time to shelter in place.  What if they say we need to do it for 6 months?  12 months? 18 months? We have posters on here and people in the media implying just that, and how dare anyone question it.  At some point, you don't just go, "BUT THE DOCTORS SAID WE HAD TO DO IT".  This is why our public officials need to balance multiple interests.  They don't just blindly follow one piece of advice.
Pelosi and the Supreme Court will not allow Trump to cancel the election. Delay the election slightly? If the circumstances actually call for that and Pelosi and Supreme Court agree, then sure why not.

We will lockdown for 18 months if necessary, and as soon as we realize that tjat is the reality, we'll have people coming up with new strategies to help the economy and social lives improve. Skype may become WAY more popular. Some sportd MAY start up again like MMA with empty crowds but broadcast to TV watchers. Online casinos will get more popular. Some new animated movies might get green-lit where voice actors and animators can self-isolate while they make the movie, and they can go straight to VOD or Netflix. We'll find a way.

No we will not be locking down for 18 months and anyone that thinks the vast majority of Americans can handle that is insane.
We'll just have to see how Americans feel when the hospitals and funeral homes totally exceed capacity and the corpses start rotting in piles in your local communities.
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2020, 12:04:20 AM »

Why would we be locked down for 18 months?
Keep in mind Wuhan has only been under complete lockdown for a month and a half and their cases are nearly gone completely.
We can either do this the fast and efficient way (which will hurt)
Or dawdle as usual and experience a slow and painful year (which will hurt more)
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T'Chenka
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« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2020, 12:10:17 AM »

Why would we be locked down for 18 months?
https://mobile.twitter.com/kakape/status/1239709269370511366
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Koharu
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« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2020, 12:28:14 AM »

The current measures are not "just" to save the elderly (who deserve saving regardless of your opinion) or "just" the immunocompromised. It's to save people of all age groups and health levels. Without locking things down, hospitals will be overwhelmed and doctors will have to decide who counts as important enough to save. Women having babies may have to stay at home. Young, healthy people can and do die from this, and we need to keep the flow to the healthcare system as even and steady as possible so we don't cycle into deaths that could easily be prevented.

We don't know how long these quarantines will take, but you better believe I will not stand by and watch Trump or anyone use them to hold on to power. Americans will not let this be the status quo forever. Assuming people who are willing to set aside liberty temporarily for the protection of others are stupid sheep who won't fight for their freedom if it's necessary when the crisis is over is ridiculous.

People in China risked their lives to warm us about how dangerous this is. When the time comes for us to be back to normal life, Americans won't stand for anyone trying to curb our freedoms.



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