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John Dule
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« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2020, 10:56:00 PM »
« edited: March 17, 2020, 10:59:04 PM by Smug Internet Libertarian »

Socialism and communism are used to avoid confronting the reality of human selfishness; they allow us to imagine ourselves as "naturally good" rather than just "naturally human."

I'm not really sure how "a powerful part of humanity is violently exploiting the rest" is somehow any implication that humans are "naturally" anything.

Which was sort of my point.

And religion-- the worst of them all-- is based in the fear of death, which is the ultimate fear of all people, and the eternity of nothingness and nonbeing that unavoidably and undeniably follows. Because religion is designed to avoid confronting humanity's greatest fear, it has proportionately required our greatest delusion. Religious people who feel the need to convert others subscribe to the majoritarian instinct that if they surround themselves with people who affirm their beliefs, they will feel more emboldened and righteous...

Doesn't seem like you're opposed to religion, here, because religion is by definition not "designed." You can make any argument you'd like about subconscious urge, but the institutions of humankind are what you are criticizing and they are not necessary for humans to continue using religion as vernacular philosophy, just as the majority of humankind has done for millennia. The "religion" you are upset about is a relatively new development in human history.

I don't care about the institutions; I'm focusing here on why individuals choose to believe in religion.

I have come to the conclusion that I simply cannot put up with belief systems that I consider to be willful self-delusions any longer.

Do you realize how self-contradictory this is?

Nope.

I began to view Islam (and religion in general) as the direct threat to Western liberal values that it is

Also, what does this bumper sticker actually mean? I've seen it on a number of Nazis' cars around town, but in my experience everyone who seems to have it is usually so drunk they can't explain it for me when I ask.

Only one religious group threatens people with death when they draw mean cartoons about them. I hate Mormonism, but I don't recall the Mormon Church issuing fatwas against Matt Stone and Trey Parker.
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vitoNova
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« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2020, 09:18:30 AM »

0:  Born, baptized Catholic.
32:  Always have been, and still an agnostic.

The end.

I went to Catholic school grades 6-9, too.   I always knew it was hogwash. But still had a great time.  Those nuns were the best teachers I ever had in grade-school.  Hippie types who played guitar and spent years in Central America doing missionary work.

I just never swallowed. 

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Mopsus
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« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2020, 05:11:09 PM »

0-13: Nondenominational fundamentalist Protestant. Never question the inerrancy of the Bible's truth claims, but occasionally feel dread at the impossibility of authentic human existence in the face of God's absoluteness. 
13-18: Total loss of faith. Very attracted to the arguments of New Atheism. Begin obsession with mind-altering substances as the "real version" of the religious experience.
18-21: Still not persuaded by the truth of any religion, but under the influence of Karen Armstrong, become interested in the moral similarities between disparate faith traditions as well as the phenomenological substance of spiritual experiences.
21-23: Extensive drug use.
23-24: Come to see personal and intellectual humility (surrendering one's will to a faith tradition) as more important than intellectual certitude in satisfying the human condition. Begin praying for the first time in a decade. Stop using drugs.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2020, 08:34:02 PM »

I accept your apology. You've been nothing but kind to me more recently, and that means a lot to me.


Sorry to be soft and all that, but this little exchange is very moving.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2020, 11:38:35 PM »

Come to see personal and intellectual humility (surrendering one's will to a faith tradition) as more important than intellectual certitude in satisfying the human condition.

What is a man,
If his chief good and market of his time
Be but to sleep and feed? a beast, no more.
Sure, he that made us with such large discourse,
Looking before and after, gave us not
That capability and god-like reason
To fust in us unused.
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CatoMinor
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2020, 11:56:06 AM »

Was baptized a Catholic as an infant.
1-18: Would attend mass with my dad when visiting for the summer, but always viewed it as a chore and never payed attention. During the school year when I lived with my mom we never did or spoke of anything that even hinted of religion. For the most part I would describe myself as nominally catholic by identity but realistically my views were more along the lines of "I don't know or care that much, but I lean closer to deism than theism."

18-20: Started hanging out with some people involved in a campus ministry my first day in college. Evangelical worship services were certainly a huge culture shock, and spent quite a while wondering why the first 30 minutes of a service are spent on putting on a christian rock concert, but I stayed for the messages which were almost always thought provoking and entirely different the very dry and overly ritualistic masses I was accustomed to.

21-25: Where many tend to get swept up in emotion, it seemed, when they are won over into evangelical Christianity, for myself at least what made the difference was the intellectual argument being made. By the end of my junior year I decided to go deeper and take the training class to become a small group leader in the campus ministry. Around this time my mother passed away from cancer, my step father from pneumonia complications the year after, and my sister took her own life the year after that. C.S. Lewis and his book A Grief Observed were a tremendous help through that. By this point I very interested in the writings of old apologists. For the last few years in college and up until marriage I was still involved in campus ministry off and on, and working at a Christian camp out in the woods.

25-27: After getting married and realizing there was little opportunity in rural east Texas, we decided to move to Austin where I began to work for the Texas Senate. Since moving to Austin we have both found a loving home  church where we volunteer with the children's ministry and lead a young adult small group.

So in tl;dr, nominal catholic/diest --> evangelical protestant
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ExtremeRepublican
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« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2020, 01:00:48 PM »

If you would prefer video form, watch this 5 minute video:

https://www.facebook.com/matt.colleran.90/videos/vb.100006343779808/2458917170996385/?type=2&video_source=user_video_tab

Text form:

Conception-5: Born to a Catholic dad and a mom who was raised Baptist but wasn't particularly religious.  Baptized Catholic.

5-10: Without a deep understanding of faith, I became acutely aware of what religion I was being raised in, almost in a my group versus the other group mentality.

11-13: Didn't see much of a point in religion and began having some doubts about God's existence while still ultimately telling myself I believed in Him, still went to church when dragged by my dad and was confirmed in the Catholic Church.

14-16: Became an atheist.  Probably the most vehement in the 15-16 year old range; like a lot of people that age, I thought I knew everything.  I do remember going to church once with my Baptist grandparents when I was 15 and thinking "this isn't as bad as what I'm used to".

17-20: Had a health scare at age 17 that made me contemplate mortality for the first time, but didn't instantly change my views.  Went to college and gradually went from a sort of agnostic my freshman year to vaguely Christian, without a real understanding of what it meant by my junior year, very gradually.  In this time, God put a ton of people in my path that He used to change the way I saw religion.  I went to church a few times at age 20 and enjoyed it but still didn't fully connect with it.

21: I finally felt the need to go to church and develop a deeper faith.  I was baptized again (in a Southern Baptist church) at age 21.

22-Present: After significant initial growth, I kind of felt stagnant.  I wound up going to a new church, where I found a great group of people that have helped each other grow since then.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2020, 01:15:33 PM »

Come to see personal and intellectual humility (surrendering one's will to a faith tradition) as more important than intellectual certitude in satisfying the human condition.

What is a man,
If his chief good and market of his time
Be but to sleep and feed? a beast, no more.
Sure, he that made us with such large discourse,
Looking before and after, gave us not
That capability and god-like reason
To fust in us unused.

I understand what you're saying. It's just been my experience that reason isn't a good guide for human action, it can be used to rationalize any range of behavior, good or bad. It's in the heart that one distinguishes right from wrong (or that it's distinguished for us). That's my personal definition of faith.
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John Dule
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« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2020, 01:55:58 PM »


Top 10 Anime Betrayals
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afleitch
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« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2020, 02:38:24 PM »

I do find it interesting at how many Americans just change religious denomination and 'church shop'. Culturally, that's very alien to me where you either pretty much stay as you are, stay but drop off or just don't care.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2020, 07:20:48 PM »

I do find it interesting at how many Americans just change religious denomination and 'church shop'. Culturally, that's very alien to me where you either pretty much stay as you are, stay but drop off or just don't care.

We live in a country where there is a default presumption that it is better to be religious and generally an awareness that different denominations will resonate with particular people. So if the denominational we grow up in doesn't resonate with us when we reach the point of being able to choose where or whether to religize, we tend more towards finding one that does resonate than assuming no religion will.
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Cassius
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« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2020, 08:30:25 AM »

0-5: Baptised, enjoyed reading my children’s Bible.
5-11: Became an atheist due to watching Walking with Dinosaurs and finding the Bible incompatible with that, in addition to rebelling against the trendy soft evangelical Christianity peddled at the progressive private school I attended.
11-18: Went to comprehensive school, rebelled against atheism due to being irritated by a number of my peers adopting an annoying Dawkinsite attitude towards Christianity. Embraced reactionary Catholicism because it seemed cool.
18-: Went to Catholic services at my uni chaplaincy, became good friends with the priest who gave the services. Have since carried on attending various Catholic Churches irregularly (ie most Sunday’s when i’m not too battered from the night before to offend the Lord, which are fewer in number than they should be).

I’m not actually sure if I believe in God (although I have had many deeply spiritual experiences after consuming lots of vodka); nonetheless, I love the Bible (although I try to read it in Latin as I think its translation into the vernacular was Christianity’s biggest mistake), I enjoy Catholic services and have gotten on well with the various priests I’ve encountered over the years, so I see no need to go all Mr Hale and leave the Church over some minor theological uncertainty.
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VPH
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« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2020, 10:05:21 AM »

I have been Roman Catholic my whole life but from around ages 12-15, I questioned a lot. Between the start of Pope Francis' papacy and a Sunday School teacher who explored CST though, I discovered a side of my faith I hadn't known before. I loved it.

Throughout undergrad, I went to mass a little more often than I did growing up (once every few weeks) and over the summer, I managed to go each week. Since starting law school, pre-COVID shutdown, I attended Mass every week and am involved with the Catholic community here. I've definitely grown more religious over time.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2020, 10:36:03 AM »

0-5: Baptised, enjoyed reading my children’s Bible.
5-11: Became an atheist due to watching Walking with Dinosaurs and finding the Bible incompatible with that, in addition to rebelling against the trendy soft evangelical Christianity peddled at the progressive private school I attended.
11-18: Went to comprehensive school, rebelled against atheism due to being irritated by a number of my peers adopting an annoying Dawkinsite attitude towards Christianity. Embraced reactionary Catholicism because it seemed cool.
18-: Went to Catholic services at my uni chaplaincy, became good friends with the priest who gave the services. Have since carried on attending various Catholic Churches irregularly (ie most Sunday’s when i’m not too battered from the night before to offend the Lord, which are fewer in number than they should be).

I’m not actually sure if I believe in God (although I have had many deeply spiritual experiences after consuming lots of vodka); nonetheless, I love the Bible (although I try to read it in Latin as I think its translation into the vernacular was Christianity’s biggest mistake), I enjoy Catholic services and have gotten on well with the various priests I’ve encountered over the years, so I see no need to go all Mr Hale and leave the Church over some minor theological uncertainty.

The vodka was good, but the meat was rotten.
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Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon
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« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2020, 08:26:52 PM »

0: Baptised

1-about 10: Enjoyed reading my children's bible, went to church occasionally with family, and participated in some Sunday School and Neighborhood Bible School. Got my first real bible at age 8, which I still have to this day (and it's in decent condition, the book of revelation has come off the binding but that's about it).

about 10-graduation from high school: Developed some genuine doubts in my faith as my parents lost some interest in it and I learned about the theory of evolution in my public school courses. Never lost my faith completely, but it basically got to a point where it was basically "Yeah, I think God exists, but honestly *shrug*". In High School and as I prepared for College, my focus was Academics and Band [trumpet]. God was not a focus. I sought to justify my social conservative views through secular means rather than using the bible as an ultimate crux in those matters.

College: Massive resurgence in my faith. Was essentially recruited into a college ministry, and though many in it are more conservative in faith than I'll ever be or become, it was what I needed to put God back into my life. I had "connections" to God again, and that was what I needed to regain interest in the bible, come to a satisfying answer on creationism vs evolution (if you look up "progressive creationism", that's basically my position), and solidify my trust in Jesus for Salvation. I purchased two large study bibles during these years to replace my aging grade school bible. 

Now: While I don't have the luxury of my college connections anymore, my faith is solid, I read theology books from time to time (this is what I'm currently reading: https://www.amazon.com/Defense-Jesus-Investigating-Attacks-Identity/dp/0310344689), and attend church or listen to sermons regularly enough. I plan to raise my kids to be Christians.
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Donerail
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« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2020, 08:44:31 PM »

0: baptized Christian - Anglican (ECUSA), as are my parents, as were/are my mother’s parents, et cetera. Not a particularly interesting story.

Sensibilities are relatively high-church because traditional rituals are 1. familiar 2. prettier. Never particularly “spiritual” (of the posters before me, probably most similar to Cassius). Church growing up was important because the church as an institution is important, it’s a place to meet people and serve on the altar guild and clean up the bayou and and make sandwiches for the homeless.  Attended less frequently during undergrad, but still attached to the Episcopal Church and still consider myself religious, and hope to get involved with a church community once I move to California this summer. Perhaps John Dule could recommend one, though I’m not optimistic on that front.
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Boobs
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« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2020, 10:24:42 PM »
« Edited: April 25, 2020, 10:41:06 PM by Dad »

0-5 : hardline atheist and socialist upbringing on kibbutz.

6 : whisked away under cover of darkness to Azerbaijan to be taught in the school of the Qara Keshish, as is the birthright of the heirs of the Derbandid Shirvanshahs.

8 : escaped the mountainous Shirvan with the assistance of Mormon missionaries.

9 : travelled along Born Again book tour and speaking circuit

10 : Baha'i

13 : celebrated bar mitzvah

14 : assigned religion beat at school paper

15 : target of fatwah for published content in said paper

16 : social media summer intern at the Vatican

17 : deep undercover as Buddhist monk in Lhasa exposing financial misconduct by the office of the Dalai Lama

18 : followed Creed on tour

19 : ingested peyote on road trip to New Mexico

20 : went on Hajj

21 : finally read Hobbs, didn't care much for it

22 : graduated cum laude from rabbinical school

23 : Wiccan, for the romantic aspect

24 : Unitarian Universalist wedding guest

25 : excommunicated by Ukrainian Orthodox Church

26-present : Kabbalist
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Fudotei
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« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2020, 10:27:19 PM »

Born and raised non-religious up to age ~20, flirted with Sunni Islam online, have eventually done enough discourse to find a community in the Catholics. Attending RCIA once the rona ends. Boy Scouts, by the way, will definitely let you do whatever if you just fake being religious
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anvi
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« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2020, 03:23:30 AM »

--From birth to 16: followed the Catholic convictions of my father
--From 16-20: readings in Biblical scholarship, history, science and philosophy loosened first my
                      Catholic convictions, then all my religious convictions, and made me inclined
                      toward atheism
--From 20-23:  toyed with a variety of approaches to spirituality loosely inspired by South Asian
                       Buddhist and "Hindu" thought, but was never a practitioner
From 23-present (now 49), atheist and not devotionally religious in any sense, but continue to
                                        study a wide variety of traditions and perhaps slightly intellectually
                                        inclined to certain ideas in early "Daoist" thought
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FEMA Camp Administrator
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« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2020, 01:43:27 PM »

Born and raised non-religious up to age ~20, flirted with Sunni Islam online, have eventually done enough discourse to find a community in the Catholics. Attending RCIA once the rona ends. Boy Scouts, by the way, will definitely let you do whatever if you just fake being religious

Fascinating. How do you square this with your enthusiastic support of SWs?
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President Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
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« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2020, 01:44:25 PM »

Born and raised non-religious up to age ~20, flirted with Sunni Islam online, have eventually done enough discourse to find a community in the Catholics. Attending RCIA once the rona ends. Boy Scouts, by the way, will definitely let you do whatever if you just fake being religious
What was your experience like with flirting with Sunni Islam online?
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Spark
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« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2020, 01:44:36 PM »

Been a long road..
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2020, 09:23:40 AM »

1998-2010: Episcopalian.
2010-2016: Non-denominational Christian.
2016-2019: "Wilderness years", not participating in anything religious but holding vaguely Christian beliefs.
2019-2020: Deist.
2020-present: Agnostic.
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afleitch
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« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2020, 12:27:09 PM »

I did wonder when I first posted this if lockdown would have any affect on my spiritual well being or outlook. Like trying to remaster French it gave way to YouTube queer Disney videos and needless eBay browsing.
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texasgurl
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« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2020, 08:54:42 PM »

I was baptized into the Episcopalian church (pretty much against my will) as an infant.
1993 started going to ELCA.
2000 Zen Buddhist.
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