Were Massachusetts African Americans the first to re-align ?
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  Were Massachusetts African Americans the first to re-align ?
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Secretary of State Liberal Hack
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« on: January 08, 2023, 11:23:25 PM »

I'm taking an online course on reconstruction and found this pretty interesting historical snippet regarding Edward G. Walker one of the first two African-Americans to be elected to the Mass State Legislator as a republican ultimately left the party and joined the Masscheuts democrats.

Quote
Walker's opposition to the language of the 14th Amendment was part of a larger breach with his fellow Massachusetts Republicans. They did not nominate him for a second term. He joined the Democratic Party, as one of many Boston African Americans to switch parties due to dissatisfaction with the Republicans.[2][17][22]

To what extent was this applicable to the rest of the african american vote in 19th century Massachusetts ?
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2023, 02:05:22 AM »

I doubt this reached down to the mass of voters, but there were certainly many periods of disillusionment, especially as subsequent generations of leaders got tired of the GOP resting on his laurels and not really doing much if anything.

This is why even Wilson got WEB Dubois for instance, though he later regretted supporting him obviously. Obviously that was decades later.
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Skill and Chance
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2023, 11:56:13 AM »

I doubt this reached down to the mass of voters, but there were certainly many periods of disillusionment, especially as subsequent generations of leaders got tired of the GOP resting on his laurels and not really doing much if anything.

This is why even Wilson got WEB Dubois for instance, though he later regretted supporting him obviously. Obviously that was decades later.

Yes, the influence of educated elites over elections back then is dramatically overstated (it's still somewhat overstated today).
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2023, 02:47:28 PM »

I am not sure, but I do recall seeing one time that Northern Blacks self-identified as Republicans at a 60/40 rate (in a two-way split with Democrats) by the 1880s ... that is obviously MUCH earlier than conventional/lazy political narratives of them being reliably Republican until the Progressive Era.  So, given Massachusetts was a state with relatively little racial tension compared to other areas of the country, this would not surprise me.

On another somewhat related note, I also recall seeing that the Southern Blacks who could vote remained more Republican than their Northern counterparts for longer, possibly even voting plurality for Eisenhower in many areas.
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2023, 09:14:41 PM »

I am not sure, but I do recall seeing one time that Northern Blacks self-identified as Republicans at a 60/40 rate (in a two-way split with Democrats) by the 1880s ... that is obviously MUCH earlier than conventional/lazy political narratives of them being reliably Republican until the Progressive Era.  So, given Massachusetts was a state with relatively little racial tension compared to other areas of the country, this would not surprise me.

On another somewhat related note, I also recall seeing that the Southern Blacks who could vote remained more Republican than their Northern counterparts for longer, possibly even voting plurality for Eisenhower in many areas.

For instance, there was a Black Democratic Club in Missouri in the late 1800's.  Formed because they felt the state GOP took them for granted.  The reference is in an unlikely place: Mystery Train by Greil Marcus.

As for MA having fewer race problems.  By the 1920's - 1930's, Boston had the worst race relations of any city in the north.  The Red Sox were the last team in MLB to have a Black player (1959).  The Celtics, for all their championships in the late 1950's and early 1960's, had mediocre attendance because so many people in the area hated the very concept of Bill Russell (his house was even broken into and vandalized by racists). 
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2023, 11:39:24 PM »

I am not sure, but I do recall seeing one time that Northern Blacks self-identified as Republicans at a 60/40 rate (in a two-way split with Democrats) by the 1880s ... that is obviously MUCH earlier than conventional/lazy political narratives of them being reliably Republican until the Progressive Era.  So, given Massachusetts was a state with relatively little racial tension compared to other areas of the country, this would not surprise me.

On another somewhat related note, I also recall seeing that the Southern Blacks who could vote remained more Republican than their Northern counterparts for longer, possibly even voting plurality for Eisenhower in many areas.

I would be curious to see if these margins widened with WJB on the Democratic ticket, or narrowed? I could see reasonable justifications for it going either way in this regard.
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« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2023, 12:29:32 AM »

I am not sure, but I do recall seeing one time that Northern Blacks self-identified as Republicans at a 60/40 rate (in a two-way split with Democrats) by the 1880s ... that is obviously MUCH earlier than conventional/lazy political narratives of them being reliably Republican until the Progressive Era.  So, given Massachusetts was a state with relatively little racial tension compared to other areas of the country, this would not surprise me.

On another somewhat related note, I also recall seeing that the Southern Blacks who could vote remained more Republican than their Northern counterparts for longer, possibly even voting plurality for Eisenhower in many areas.

For instance, there was a Black Democratic Club in Missouri in the late 1800's.  Formed because they felt the state GOP took them for granted.  The reference is in an unlikely place: Mystery Train by Greil Marcus.

As for MA having fewer race problems.  By the 1920's - 1930's, Boston had the worst race relations of any city in the north.  The Red Sox were the last team in MLB to have a Black player (1959).  The Celtics, for all their championships in the late 1950's and early 1960's, had mediocre attendance because so many people in the area hated the very concept of Bill Russell (his house was even broken into and vandalized by racists). 

Yeah, I was aware of Boston’s backstory, but I guess I thought that was pretty specific to the city itself?
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2023, 04:31:14 PM »

Black voters helped elect Democratic mayors in Chicago in the 1880s.
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progressive85
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2023, 06:20:42 PM »
« Edited: January 16, 2023, 06:25:12 PM by Super Size My Freedom Fries! »

With so many racist and segregationist Southern Democrats in the party, I imagine many black voters looked to the Republicans, or that the idea that you were a Democrat wasn't passed down by your parents and grandparents so it there wasn't any affiliation in the family with the Democrats.  There were probably many that didn't trust either party to really advocate for black people.

I know that Philadelphia was once very Republican (with a machine running the city) and there were probably a lot of black votes for Republicans there.

As for Massachusetts, all I know is Edward Brooke.
Edward Brooke was an African-American Republican U.S. Senator from Massachusetts from 1967-1979.  I would be curious to how African Americans in Massachusetts voted in 1966, 1972, and 1978.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2023, 12:19:34 AM »

With so many racist and segregationist Southern Democrats in the party, I imagine many black voters looked to the Republicans, or that the idea that you were a Democrat wasn't passed down by your parents and grandparents so it there wasn't any affiliation in the family with the Democrats.  There were probably many that didn't trust either party to really advocate for black people.

I know that Philadelphia was once very Republican (with a machine running the city) and there were probably a lot of black votes for Republicans there.

As for Massachusetts, all I know is Edward Brooke.
Edward Brooke was an African-American Republican U.S. Senator from Massachusetts from 1967-1979.  I would be curious to how African Americans in Massachusetts voted in 1966, 1972, and 1978.

Consider also that we taken for granted that if some politician makes a comment or something, it is national news. Back then, what Democrats were doing in South Carolina or Florida, likely wouldn't have had as much impact for lack of TV, radio, 24hr news cycle, smart phones. This meant that there would be a consideration to "local party members" over and above what the national party was traditionally associated with.

This applies writ large and is a large part of the reason for the rise of polarization in the modern era, communication and media.
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2023, 01:49:56 PM »

I am not sure, but I do recall seeing one time that Northern Blacks self-identified as Republicans at a 60/40 rate (in a two-way split with Democrats) by the 1880s ... that is obviously MUCH earlier than conventional/lazy political narratives of them being reliably Republican until the Progressive Era.  So, given Massachusetts was a state with relatively little racial tension compared to other areas of the country, this would not surprise me.

On another somewhat related note, I also recall seeing that the Southern Blacks who could vote remained more Republican than their Northern counterparts for longer, possibly even voting plurality for Eisenhower in many areas.

I hypothesize that this was in part due to the following reasons

1. The state- and local-level Republican Parties in the South (excluding Appalachia and perhaps also the Ozarks) were, to a large extent, organizations that essentially existed for the primary purpose of being pro-Black social, cultural, and political institutions - of, by, and for Black people. This was not the case at all in the North (save perhaps for some Black-majority areas within certain major cities such as Chicago and Philadelphia, as well as some of the small number of rural Black communities in the North, such as Pembroke Township IL, Alexander County, IL, or Eastern Shore counties in Maryland).

2. White supremacy/White racial interests were a key component of the Democratic Party platform in the South relative to the Republican Party in the South - further cementing the popular conscious and subconscious understanding of the Republican Party as innately being the intrinsically "Black party" (similar to de-facto status of the Democratic Party today as, unfortunately, being the intrinsically "Black Party" in most places post-1964) - whereas this was not nearly as true (but still definitely true at all) of the Democratic Party in the North relative to the Republican Party in the North.

3. The "60-40" figure, which is featured in the Wikipedia's article on the Third Party System (which is where I first saw the figure before I read your post, and where I imagine you have seen the figure if not also from someplace else) is a figure (estimate? canvass?) that comes from a book, The Third Electoral System 1853–1892 (1979), by an author named Paul Kleppner (as sourced in the Wiki article). Before World War I and the contemporary "Great Migration," the large majority of Northern Blacks were disproportionally college-educated, high-school graduated (to the extent that was an applicable category back then), upper- or upper-middle-class, higher-income, and (I would wager) ideologically left/liberal-leaning relative to the Southern Black population and to the Black American population as a whole; therefore, they almost certainly were much more likely Dem voters than the Southern or Nationwide Black population at the time.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2023, 02:01:51 PM »

I am not sure, but I do recall seeing one time that Northern Blacks self-identified as Republicans at a 60/40 rate (in a two-way split with Democrats) by the 1880s ... that is obviously MUCH earlier than conventional/lazy political narratives of them being reliably Republican until the Progressive Era.  So, given Massachusetts was a state with relatively little racial tension compared to other areas of the country, this would not surprise me.

On another somewhat related note, I also recall seeing that the Southern Blacks who could vote remained more Republican than their Northern counterparts for longer, possibly even voting plurality for Eisenhower in many areas.

I hypothesize that this was in part due to the following reasons

1. The state- and local-level Republican Parties in the South (excluding Appalachia and perhaps also the Ozarks) were, to a large extent, organizations that essentially existed for the primary purpose of being pro-Black social, cultural, and political institutions - of, by, and for Black people. This was not the case at all in the North (save perhaps for some Black-majority areas within certain major cities such as Chicago and Philadelphia, as well as some of the small number of rural Black communities in the North, such as Pembroke Township IL, Alexander County, IL, or Eastern Shore counties in Maryland).

2. White supremacy/White racial interests were a key component of the Democratic Party platform in the South relative to the Republican Party in the South - further cementing the popular conscious and subconscious understanding of the Republican Party as innately being the intrinsically "Black party" (similar to de-facto status of the Democratic Party today as, unfortunately, being the intrinsically "Black Party" in most places post-1964) - whereas this was not nearly as true (but still definitely true at all) of the Democratic Party in the North relative to the Republican Party in the North.

3. The "60-40" figure, which is featured in the Wikipedia's article on the Third Party System (which is where I first saw the figure before I read your post, and where I imagine you have seen the figure if not also from someplace else) is a figure (estimate? canvass?) that comes from a book, The Third Electoral System 1853–1892 (1979), by an author named Paul Kleppner (as sourced in the Wiki article). Before World War I and the contemporary "Great Migration," the large majority of Northern Blacks were disproportionally college-educated, high-school graduated (to the extent that was an applicable category back then), upper- or upper-middle-class, higher-income, and (I would wager) ideologically left/liberal-leaning relative to the Southern Black population and to the Black American population as a whole; therefore, they almost certainly were much more likely Dem voters than the Southern or Nationwide Black population at the time.

I know a few folks who would and might freak out after reading this. Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2023, 02:45:40 PM »

I am not sure, but I do recall seeing one time that Northern Blacks self-identified as Republicans at a 60/40 rate (in a two-way split with Democrats) by the 1880s ... that is obviously MUCH earlier than conventional/lazy political narratives of them being reliably Republican until the Progressive Era.  So, given Massachusetts was a state with relatively little racial tension compared to other areas of the country, this would not surprise me.

On another somewhat related note, I also recall seeing that the Southern Blacks who could vote remained more Republican than their Northern counterparts for longer, possibly even voting plurality for Eisenhower in many areas.

I hypothesize that this was in part due to the following reasons

1. The state- and local-level Republican Parties in the South (excluding Appalachia and perhaps also the Ozarks) were, to a large extent, organizations that essentially existed for the primary purpose of being pro-Black social, cultural, and political institutions - of, by, and for Black people. This was not the case at all in the North (save perhaps for some Black-majority areas within certain major cities such as Chicago and Philadelphia, as well as some of the small number of rural Black communities in the North, such as Pembroke Township IL, Alexander County, IL, or Eastern Shore counties in Maryland).

2. White supremacy/White racial interests were a key component of the Democratic Party platform in the South relative to the Republican Party in the South - further cementing the popular conscious and subconscious understanding of the Republican Party as innately being the intrinsically "Black party" (similar to de-facto status of the Democratic Party today as, unfortunately, being the intrinsically "Black Party" in most places post-1964) - whereas this was not nearly as true (but still definitely true at all) of the Democratic Party in the North relative to the Republican Party in the North.

3. The "60-40" figure, which is featured in the Wikipedia's article on the Third Party System (which is where I first saw the figure before I read your post, and where I imagine you have seen the figure if not also from someplace else) is a figure (estimate? canvass?) that comes from a book, The Third Electoral System 1853–1892 (1979), by an author named Paul Kleppner (as sourced in the Wiki article). Before World War I and the contemporary "Great Migration," the large majority of Northern Blacks were disproportionally college-educated, high-school graduated (to the extent that was an applicable category back then), upper- or upper-middle-class, higher-income, and (I would wager) ideologically left/liberal-leaning relative to the Southern Black population and to the Black American population as a whole; therefore, they almost certainly were much more likely Dem voters than the Southern or Nationwide Black population at the time.

I know a few folks who would and might freak out after reading this. Smiley

I have many guesses as to whom you're talking about, but I fear that whichever one I pick will be wrong.
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