Ukraine general discussion

[😥]

Its an English language idiom ("business as usual" = "things much the same as before")

Well thanks, I understood. Although I do not think so, under Poroshenko and even Yanukovych there were far fewer scandals and they were not so odious (for example: castrating the unemployed, mice ate grain, etc.)

[kelestian]

Meanwhile, the Verkhovna Rada passed a bill that violates the association with the EU. Also, the pro-Russian part of SOTP and OPFL want to pass the so-called "Buzhansky's bill", which will actually make Ukraine Russian-speaking.

Not true about "Buzhansky's Bill". It just slightly changes higly controversial 2019 Language Bill with accordance to recommendations from Venetian Commission. Mainly it's just delays abolishment of russian-language schools until 2023 (as for other ethnic minority-languages schools). Though I have impression it wouldn't pass/would't been considered. Oh well, there goes SOTP's perspectives of winning regional elections in South-East.

Yes, but teaching in schools in Russian provokes Russian-speaking Ukraine in the future. This will enable Russia to continue to "protect Russian-speakers." Posters "Putin, help" ("Путин, помоги!") will appear later. And, in my opinion, deputies in the Verkhovna Rada should speak exclusively in the state language, that is Ukrainian, instead of Russian as Buzhansky does. And I fully support 2019 Language Bill, I, like many experts, do not find any discrimination in it

There are about 150 russian-speaking schools in Ukraine, about 1% of total number, so it doesn't provoke anything. And of course ukrainians chose european values in 2014, which includes respect minority rights, such as linguistic.
Posters wouldn't appear if there would be no discrimination. Personally i think it would be good to have Russian as second state-language, it would close linguistic question.

As for 2019 Language Bill, it was critisized basically by everyone except ukrainian nationalists. See, Venetian Commission:
https://www.dw.com/ru/%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%83-%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%8C-%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD-%D0%BE%D0%B1-%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC-%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA%D0%B5/a-51567161
UN:
https://news.un.org/ru/story/2019/07/1359441

You see, the problem is not in Russian-language schools. The problem is in Russian-speaking pro-Russian society, which is a consequence of the existence of these schools.

By the way, it is not necessary for the school to have the status of Russian-language teaching. At my nephew's, who goes to a Ukrainian school in western Ukraine, some elderly teachers teach Russian and teach students how good it was to live in the USSR. This is in western Ukraine. In the east, most are exactly the same. Ukrainian-language schools are so only in the name, but in fact they teach in Russian

I would not see any problem in the bilingualism of society if:

a) it was full equality, not as I often heard in Odessa a few years ago "Please speak Russian, because I do not understand you"

b) there was no such neighbor as Russia, which at any time is ready to come to save Russian-speakers from the fascists invented by it.

Point. And don't try to prove to me how useful it is to have a bilingual society and Russian as a second state language. At least not for the next 100 years

Don't understand your argument against bilingualism. Again, this is attack on minorities rights. And i think Donbass will never return if there would't be some form of compromise in linguistic and historic questions, perhaps returning of Kivalov language law?

[kelestian]

In recent news: another violent attack of Azov movement Neo-nazis, this time they attacked OPFL activists.
https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4468390
Strong words of condemnation from Zelensky, but as always he probably would't do anything.

[😥]

Meanwhile, the Verkhovna Rada passed a bill that violates the association with the EU. Also, the pro-Russian part of SOTP and OPFL want to pass the so-called "Buzhansky's bill", which will actually make Ukraine Russian-speaking.

Not true about "Buzhansky's Bill". It just slightly changes higly controversial 2019 Language Bill with accordance to recommendations from Venetian Commission. Mainly it's just delays abolishment of russian-language schools until 2023 (as for other ethnic minority-languages schools). Though I have impression it wouldn't pass/would't been considered. Oh well, there goes SOTP's perspectives of winning regional elections in South-East.

Yes, but teaching in schools in Russian provokes Russian-speaking Ukraine in the future. This will enable Russia to continue to "protect Russian-speakers." Posters "Putin, help" ("Путин, помоги!") will appear later. And, in my opinion, deputies in the Verkhovna Rada should speak exclusively in the state language, that is Ukrainian, instead of Russian as Buzhansky does. And I fully support 2019 Language Bill, I, like many experts, do not find any discrimination in it

There are about 150 russian-speaking schools in Ukraine, about 1% of total number, so it doesn't provoke anything. And of course ukrainians chose european values in 2014, which includes respect minority rights, such as linguistic.
Posters wouldn't appear if there would be no discrimination. Personally i think it would be good to have Russian as second state-language, it would close linguistic question.

As for 2019 Language Bill, it was critisized basically by everyone except ukrainian nationalists. See, Venetian Commission:
https://www.dw.com/ru/%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%83-%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%8C-%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD-%D0%BE%D0%B1-%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC-%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA%D0%B5/a-51567161
UN:
https://news.un.org/ru/story/2019/07/1359441

You see, the problem is not in Russian-language schools. The problem is in Russian-speaking pro-Russian society, which is a consequence of the existence of these schools.

By the way, it is not necessary for the school to have the status of Russian-language teaching. At my nephew's, who goes to a Ukrainian school in western Ukraine, some elderly teachers teach Russian and teach students how good it was to live in the USSR. This is in western Ukraine. In the east, most are exactly the same. Ukrainian-language schools are so only in the name, but in fact they teach in Russian

I would not see any problem in the bilingualism of society if:

a) it was full equality, not as I often heard in Odessa a few years ago "Please speak Russian, because I do not understand you"

b) there was no such neighbor as Russia, which at any time is ready to come to save Russian-speakers from the fascists invented by it.

Point. And don't try to prove to me how useful it is to have a bilingual society and Russian as a second state language. At least not for the next 100 years

Don't understand your argument against bilingualism. Again, this is attack on minorities rights. And i think Donbass will never return if there would't be some form of compromise in linguistic and historic questions, perhaps returning of Kivalov language law?

If Russian is introduced as the state language or the Kolesnichenko-Kivalov law is returned, Ukraine will be totally Russified. The issue of language itself was the main reason for the annexation of Crimea and the occupation of Donbass. There should be only one state language in Ukraine!

And what historical compromises about Donbass are you talking about? This is historically a Ukrainian-speaking land, but, unfortunately, the Ukrainian-speaking population was killed during the genocide of 1932-1933.

[😥]

In recent news: another violent attack of Azov movement Neo-nazis, this time they attacked OPFL activists.
https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4468390
Strong words of condemnation from Zelensky, but as always he probably would't do anything.

The Azov Battalion is not a neo-Nazi. There is no evidence that they attacked the bus. I'm not at all surprised that it was an internal party provocation by the OPLF to spread rumors about "Bandera", "fascists" and "crucified children on the streets" again.

[kelestian]

Meanwhile, the Verkhovna Rada passed a bill that violates the association with the EU. Also, the pro-Russian part of SOTP and OPFL want to pass the so-called "Buzhansky's bill", which will actually make Ukraine Russian-speaking.

Not true about "Buzhansky's Bill". It just slightly changes higly controversial 2019 Language Bill with accordance to recommendations from Venetian Commission. Mainly it's just delays abolishment of russian-language schools until 2023 (as for other ethnic minority-languages schools). Though I have impression it wouldn't pass/would't been considered. Oh well, there goes SOTP's perspectives of winning regional elections in South-East.

Yes, but teaching in schools in Russian provokes Russian-speaking Ukraine in the future. This will enable Russia to continue to "protect Russian-speakers." Posters "Putin, help" ("Путин, помоги!") will appear later. And, in my opinion, deputies in the Verkhovna Rada should speak exclusively in the state language, that is Ukrainian, instead of Russian as Buzhansky does. And I fully support 2019 Language Bill, I, like many experts, do not find any discrimination in it

There are about 150 russian-speaking schools in Ukraine, about 1% of total number, so it doesn't provoke anything. And of course ukrainians chose european values in 2014, which includes respect minority rights, such as linguistic.
Posters wouldn't appear if there would be no discrimination. Personally i think it would be good to have Russian as second state-language, it would close linguistic question.

As for 2019 Language Bill, it was critisized basically by everyone except ukrainian nationalists. See, Venetian Commission:
https://www.dw.com/ru/%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%83-%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%8C-%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD-%D0%BE%D0%B1-%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC-%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA%D0%B5/a-51567161
UN:
https://news.un.org/ru/story/2019/07/1359441

You see, the problem is not in Russian-language schools. The problem is in Russian-speaking pro-Russian society, which is a consequence of the existence of these schools.

By the way, it is not necessary for the school to have the status of Russian-language teaching. At my nephew's, who goes to a Ukrainian school in western Ukraine, some elderly teachers teach Russian and teach students how good it was to live in the USSR. This is in western Ukraine. In the east, most are exactly the same. Ukrainian-language schools are so only in the name, but in fact they teach in Russian

I would not see any problem in the bilingualism of society if:

a) it was full equality, not as I often heard in Odessa a few years ago "Please speak Russian, because I do not understand you"

b) there was no such neighbor as Russia, which at any time is ready to come to save Russian-speakers from the fascists invented by it.

Point. And don't try to prove to me how useful it is to have a bilingual society and Russian as a second state language. At least not for the next 100 years

Don't understand your argument against bilingualism. Again, this is attack on minorities rights. And i think Donbass will never return if there would't be some form of compromise in linguistic and historic questions, perhaps returning of Kivalov language law?

If Russian is introduced as the state language or the Kolesnichenko-Kivalov law is returned, Ukraine will be totally Russified. The issue of language itself was the main reason for the annexation of Crimea and the occupation of Donbass. There should be only one state language in Ukraine!

And what historical compromises about Donbass are you talking about? This is historically a Ukrainian-speaking land, but, unfortunately, the Ukrainian-speaking population was killed during the genocide of 1932-1933.

Well, i wish your views (and Poroshenko's) would not be shared by majority of Ukrainians. Or there will be more conflicts and tensions.
As for historic compromise: abolishment of decommunisation laws. Let East Ukraine and West Ukraine honoured whoever people are liked in those regions. Or probably there coul be created a list of unifiing historic figures.
Like, even you should be against what happened with Vatutin street in Kyiv under "decommunization".

[kelestian]

In recent news: another violent attack of Azov movement Neo-nazis, this time they attacked OPFL activists.
https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4468390
Strong words of condemnation from Zelensky, but as always he probably would't do anything.

The Azov Battalion is not a neo-Nazi. There is no evidence that they attacked the bus. I'm not at all surprised that it was an internal party provocation by the OPLF to spread rumors about "Bandera", "fascists" and "crucified children on the streets" again.

Yes, it is neo-nazis batallion, almost all of our (Russian) active Neo-nazis went to fight in it in 2014. Like, they don't even hide that Azov is international neo-nazi organization.

As for attack, several Azov-linked people were arrested, car of local Azov's head was used and this is just another one, Azov previosly attacked OPFL/Shariy activists on numerous occasions.
https://strana.ua/news/286577-rasstrel-avtobusa-pod-kharkovom-rekonstruktsija-sobytij.html
I know "Strana.ua" is biased, but this report of events is pretty good.

[😥]

In recent news: another violent attack of Azov movement Neo-nazis, this time they attacked OPFL activists.
https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4468390
Strong words of condemnation from Zelensky, but as always he probably would't do anything.

The Azov Battalion is not a neo-Nazi. There is no evidence that they attacked the bus. I'm not at all surprised that it was an internal party provocation by the OPLF to spread rumors about "Bandera", "fascists" and "crucified children on the streets" again.

Yes, it is neo-nazis batallion, almost all of our (Russian) active Neo-nazis went to fight in it in 2014. Like, they don't even hide that Azov is international neo-nazi organization.

As for attack, several Azov-linked people were arrested, car of local Azov's head was used and this is just another one, Azov previosly attacked OPFL/Shariy activists on numerous occasions.
https://strana.ua/news/286577-rasstrel-avtobusa-pod-kharkovom-rekonstruktsija-sobytij.html
I know "Strana.ua" is biased, but this report of events is pretty good.

I do not deny the presence of neo-Nazis in "Azov", but they are a minority there. By the way, I really, really don't like Biletsky.

As for the attack, I'm not sure it was Azov, but the perpetrators should be punished. And this attack is definitely beneficial to the OPFL.

[😥]

Meanwhile, the Verkhovna Rada passed a bill that violates the association with the EU. Also, the pro-Russian part of SOTP and OPFL want to pass the so-called "Buzhansky's bill", which will actually make Ukraine Russian-speaking.

Not true about "Buzhansky's Bill". It just slightly changes higly controversial 2019 Language Bill with accordance to recommendations from Venetian Commission. Mainly it's just delays abolishment of russian-language schools until 2023 (as for other ethnic minority-languages schools). Though I have impression it wouldn't pass/would't been considered. Oh well, there goes SOTP's perspectives of winning regional elections in South-East.

Yes, but teaching in schools in Russian provokes Russian-speaking Ukraine in the future. This will enable Russia to continue to "protect Russian-speakers." Posters "Putin, help" ("Путин, помоги!") will appear later. And, in my opinion, deputies in the Verkhovna Rada should speak exclusively in the state language, that is Ukrainian, instead of Russian as Buzhansky does. And I fully support 2019 Language Bill, I, like many experts, do not find any discrimination in it

There are about 150 russian-speaking schools in Ukraine, about 1% of total number, so it doesn't provoke anything. And of course ukrainians chose european values in 2014, which includes respect minority rights, such as linguistic.
Posters wouldn't appear if there would be no discrimination. Personally i think it would be good to have Russian as second state-language, it would close linguistic question.

As for 2019 Language Bill, it was critisized basically by everyone except ukrainian nationalists. See, Venetian Commission:
https://www.dw.com/ru/%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%83-%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%8C-%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD-%D0%BE%D0%B1-%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC-%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA%D0%B5/a-51567161
UN:
https://news.un.org/ru/story/2019/07/1359441

You see, the problem is not in Russian-language schools. The problem is in Russian-speaking pro-Russian society, which is a consequence of the existence of these schools.

By the way, it is not necessary for the school to have the status of Russian-language teaching. At my nephew's, who goes to a Ukrainian school in western Ukraine, some elderly teachers teach Russian and teach students how good it was to live in the USSR. This is in western Ukraine. In the east, most are exactly the same. Ukrainian-language schools are so only in the name, but in fact they teach in Russian

I would not see any problem in the bilingualism of society if:

a) it was full equality, not as I often heard in Odessa a few years ago "Please speak Russian, because I do not understand you"

b) there was no such neighbor as Russia, which at any time is ready to come to save Russian-speakers from the fascists invented by it.

Point. And don't try to prove to me how useful it is to have a bilingual society and Russian as a second state language. At least not for the next 100 years

Don't understand your argument against bilingualism. Again, this is attack on minorities rights. And i think Donbass will never return if there would't be some form of compromise in linguistic and historic questions, perhaps returning of Kivalov language law?

If Russian is introduced as the state language or the Kolesnichenko-Kivalov law is returned, Ukraine will be totally Russified. The issue of language itself was the main reason for the annexation of Crimea and the occupation of Donbass. There should be only one state language in Ukraine!

And what historical compromises about Donbass are you talking about? This is historically a Ukrainian-speaking land, but, unfortunately, the Ukrainian-speaking population was killed during the genocide of 1932-1933.

Well, i wish your views (and Poroshenko's) would not be shared by majority of Ukrainians. Or there will be more conflicts and tensions.
As for historic compromise: abolishment of decommunisation laws. Let East Ukraine and West Ukraine honoured whoever people are liked in those regions. Or probably there coul be created a list of unifiing historic figures.
Like, even you should be against what happened with Vatutin street in Kyiv under "decommunization".

Conflicts on the basis of what? Conflicts in !Ukrainian! society because Ukrainians should not speak their language, should forget their culture, should not have their own church? If these conflicts existed, they would exist only because there were centuries of russification of the Ukrainian nation and genocide of the Ukrainian people.

And I have absolutely nothing against communist figures. Well, let the streets bear their names, but only if they were not executioners of the Ukrainian people.

By the way, I have a few questions for you. I hope you will answer:
1. Do you recognize Crimea as the territory of Russia? Was the annexation of Crimea legal?
2. Are there Russian troops in the Donbass?
3. Should Russian culture spread to other countries and destroy the culture of those countries (as in Belarus)?

[KaiserDave]

How are things in Ukraine Andriy?

[😥]

How are things in Ukraine Andriy?

Interesting question. The epic drop in the SOTP rating and the constant corruption of Zelensky's team can probably be described forever.

In fact, several SOTP deputies have been caught red-handed in the past month, but only one has been detained. Zelensky's team is openly leading pro-Russian people in the local elections.

At present, everyone in Ukraine is busy with local elections. The European Solidarity party is confidently winning in the West, the OPFL is leading in the East, while the Center remains the battlefield between European Solidarity and SOTP. I am sure that the mayors of all oblast centers will be re-elected. The only mayor who can lose is Lviv Mayor Andriy Sadoviy. And he deserves it. His main competitor is the People's Deputy from "ES" Oleg Sinyutka

[😥]

"Servant of the People" has lost local elections. According to preliminary data, they failed to win in the first round and did not pass to the 2nd round in any regional center of Ukraine. More details tomorrow

[PSOL]

Kolomoisky bought US property with embezzled funds

[Estrella]

- You see, I was born in Austria-Hungary, went to school in Czechoslovakia, served in the Hungarian army, worked in Soviet Union and then retired in Ukraine.

- Wow, you must have travelled a lot!

- Nope, I spent my whole life in Uzhhorod.


Not quite sure if this should go in this thread, but anyway, here it goes. A map of the 1935 election for the assembly of Subcarpathian Ruthenia, today Ukraine's Zakarpattia Oblast but back then a constituent country of First Czechoslovak Republic. Made by the amazing nanwe01 on DeviantArt, along with a writeup I quoted below.

This is the result of the provincial election of 1935 in Subcarpathian Ruthenia. The Provincial Assembly was formed by 18 members, 12 of which were elected from an at-large constituency and one third was appointed by the central government in Prague.

The Agrarians (RSZML) obtained more seats in the elected part of the assembly members than the Communists (the KSČ) because the party ran three separate lists that donated their votes to the largest one in the seat allocation. If they had all ran together from the get-go, the party would have been the largest.

The various Czechoslovak parties had a limited presence in the region, with the exception of the Agrarians. The Czechoslovak Social Democrats (ČSDSD) obtained a single elected seat whereas the other main ones (the quasi-fascist National Union, the left-liberal National Socialists and the Catholic People's Party) had limited following.

Two Hungarian parties obtained representation, the Provincial Christian Socialist Party (OKSzP) and the Hungarian National Party (MNS, MNP in Hungarian). As you can imagine, the former was more moderate whereas the latter was more radically nationalistic. Both parties, like the Rusyn autonomist AZS were financed by Budapest.

Lastly, there was the Ruthenian (National) Autonomous Party (RAS), better known as the Fencivoks after the party leader, Štefan Fencik (Фенцик Степан) a far-right Rusyn nationalist who was also anti-Semitic. The party cooperated at the national level with the National Union but ran separately in the provincial election.

The Agrarians, together with the Czechoslovak Social Democratic, National Socialist and People's Parties formed the assembly majority.

[njwes]

I'm cautious about asking this cause I'm aware it's a minefield, but since both "sides" are represented here I thought I'd asked: does the term "Ukrainian-speaking ethnic Russians" make any sense? Would you say that such people exist in a real way? Who would identify as such?

And maybe an easier question--is there any solid data on the number of monolingual Ukrainian-speakers? I've seen stats for this from many sources (even good ol'-fashioned reference books!) but they've been quite varied, even from sources published in the last decade.

[😥]

You can watch Crimea Platform (in English), which was held in Kyiv today earlier. There were 46 delegations from counties all around the wolrd

https://youtu.be/jhALdC4bvtM

[😥]

I am sorry that this thread has had too few updates in recent times and does not cover all the news about Ukraine. I will try to make a large-scale description of the events, but I am not sure if I will have time for that, but if you are interested in asking a question, I will be happy to answer. And now about Wagnergate - you can read about the surrender of the special operation by Russian agents like head of OP Yermak here (there are Russian and English versions):

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2021/11/17/inside-wagnergate-ukraines-brazen-sting-operation-to-snare-russian-mercenaries/

[PSOL]

Did Ihor get his bank back?

[😥]

Did Ihor get his bank back?

Not yet. The Supreme Court suspended the cassation for an indefinite period. It is very difficult to predict whether Kolomoisky will get the bank back. There is a widespread opinion that the Supreme Court is dominated by forces in favor of Poroshenko, so I strongly doubt his return.

And I doubt that Kolomoisky still has an influence on Zelensky and the team. People close to Kolomoisky from Zelensky's team have resigned over the past year. And now there is a purge of Akhmetov's people and their replacement by those loyal to Ermak, who is very likely an agent of the Kremlin

[😥]

Please read!

I now turn to all of you with a very important message. And first of all, I ask you to read it to those who consider Ukraine part of Russia or consider only Crimea and Donbass part of Russia or in any other way deny the territorial integrity of my country. I'm not going to call these Atlas posters right now, but they know exactly who I'm talking about. It should be noted that I perceive all this not as a personal insult to me, but as an insult to my people and my state, and not only as an insult, but as an open call to destroy the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

First of all, I must say that I do not believe that anyone, no matter Americans, British or Germans, should fight for Ukraine and defend its independence at the cost of their lives. In my opinion, this is too much. Human life is the highest value and to give it for the defense of another's country, another's people is not always right and appropriate. I understand the grief of mothers who are expecting a son from the war in another state, but will never be able to see him again. This is terrible. And it should not be so. Therefore, the presence and assistance of the US military in Ukraine to protect it from the Kremlin's insanity would be great, but I absolutely do not support it, at least not yet. Defending a foreign country is not worth the tears of mothers, wives and sisters. I say this as a person whose acquaintances include veterans of the Afghan war and there are families in which someone from the Afghan war has not returned.

At the same time, the United States must provide absolutely any armament that Ukraine will need to protect its territorial integrity. Absolutely any. Why? First, because it's not just about Ukraine. It's about the West's ability to stand up to Russia, it's about the West's resilience to the Russian threat. You know, some European parties are almost openly funded by Russia, at least. Whether we like it or not, many countries depend on Russia. With the construction and launch of Nord Stream 2 (which I believe will be the case anyway), Europe is also becoming dependent on Russia. During all the years of construction of this gas pipeline, the interests of Eastern European and Baltic countries have been betrayed. But now this problem is not only in Eastern Europe, but throughout the EU. The topic of Nord Stream-2 is, in fact, a little different. I will return to previous thoughts. So, Russia will definitely not stop at a full-scale war against Ukraine (it is worth remembering that Russia's war against Ukraine has been going on for 7 years, but it is not full-scale). Whether I want to admit it or not, I must point out that Ukraine itself will not be able to withstand the Russian army without the help of the West. So, after the fall of Ukraine in the absence of Western aid, the actual Anschluss of Belarus, which has already taken place, the Kremlin marasmatic will continue to return the empire. Many countries will fall victim to this policy, and the worst thing is that the West will not be able to do anything about it. If you do not act now, then it will be too late.

And now I want to answer all the people who said something like "Ukraine belongs to Russia", "It's one people" or something else. Dear and not very dear, you know, I will not even touch on the time of the Russian Empire, when almost all the peasants were serfs who had no right to revolt, who had absolutely no rights, and who could be exchanged for a necklace; when Ukrainian culture was persecuted and destroyed at a slow pace.

I will talk about the Soviet Union - a favorite country of many fanatics. You know, my great-grandfather was exiled to Solovki during collectivization, from where he never returned. Do you know why? He privately owned 3 hectares of land, 2 horses and 4 cows. He was exiled, and his property was collectivized, taken to the collective farm, where two horses and 2 cows died six months later due to neglect.

Then there was the Holodomor. Can you imagine parents slaughtering and eating their child? I couldn't either, but it was. In the village where my grandfather's family lived, 80 percent of the population died. It was the same in the neighboring villages. Party members came to the house, killed all the pets so that they would not be eaten, and took all the food. My grandfather's family escaped by eating frogs, moles, and mice. Because people hid grain somewhere at home, they could just be shot. At the same time, grain was exported at a breakneck pace, wheat, barley and other grains grew in the fields, but people could not eat it because the Law "On Three Ears" was adopted. This law was that if a person plucks ears of corn in the field, he must be shot immediately.

After the Holodomor, ethnic Russians were brought into empty houses, most of whom had previously been prisoners - murderers, robbers, and so on. Thus, the Ukrainian-speaking Donbass, inhabited by ethnic Ukrainians, was transformed into a region of Russian-speaking ethnic Russians. After the Holodomor, the repressions of 1936-1937 began, when the entire Ukrainian intelligentsia was destroyed. My great-grandmother, who was a schoolteacher, was sent to a concentration camp for 20 years for coming to work in Ukrainian national clothes. She returned from exile after Stalin's death, when Khrushchev was rehabilitating some prisoners, but died a few years later because she became seriously ill in the North.

The culture of Ukrainians was practically destroyed. Ethnic Ukrainian territories were inhabited by Russians. Those were terrible times. And they will be repeated if Russia captures Ukraine.

And in the end, I can't keep quiet, let it be extremely rude, but all those who say here that "Ukraine is a part of Russia", "It's one nation with a small difference", etc. - you are scum, you are horrible people. Everyone who knows me knows that I have never called anyone here a bad word, but I cannot remain silent now. God forbid that any of you go through what my great-grandparents, grandparents, and finally, my parents went through, God forbid!

Posting this in two threads. The other being disussion about will/should US help Ukraine fight against Russia on US General discussion

[😥]

[PSOL]

Ukraine has a right to defend itself, just as the rightful representative of the Ukrainian people, the Black Army, did against the Tsar and Bolsheviks—but the options here are not war or Ukrainian annihilation. The recent flexing and insanity since 2014 can end if the EuroMaidan putsch government resigns (The US can make them), stops the electoral suppression, and hosts a free and fair election free from any oligarchic influence. No Ukrainian wants this hellscape to go any longer, and the US government supporting the current militias and oligarchs will cause blowback once there are millions of dollars worth of weapons sold on the black market to terrorist groups around the world.

[😥]

Ukraine has a right to defend itself, just as the rightful representative of the Ukrainian people, the Black Army, did against the Tsar and Bolsheviks—but the options here are not war or Ukrainian annihilation. The recent flexing and insanity since 2014 can end if the EuroMaidan putsch government resigns (The US can make them), stops the electoral suppression, and hosts a free and fair election free from any oligarchic influence. No Ukrainian wants this hellscape to go any longer, and the US government supporting the current militias and oligarchs will cause blowback once there are millions of dollars worth of weapons sold on the black market to terrorist groups around the world.

You know, PSOL, every election in Ukraine was fair and free. Each since independence (excluding Round 2 of 2004, when the results were falsified in favor of Yanukovych, resulting in the Orange Revolution). In 1999, Kuchma's main rival, Chornovil, was killed. Of course, the latter would have won if he had been alive, but in reality Kuchma defeated Symonenko without any falsifications. The 2014 elections were completely fair and transparent. As for 2019, I cannot deny that the influence of the oligarchs took place, but it was rather a manipulation of voters' opinions through slander against Poroshenko. The elections of that year were fair and free.

As for Euromaidan, it was not a coup, and the Nazis did not come to power as a result, as is popularly believed. The power that was established after the Euromaidan was absolutely legitimate, and Poroshenko became the first President to take care, first of all, of the country and then of himself, and not the other way around, as everyone before and after him did.

[PSOL]

Ukraine has a right to defend itself, just as the rightful representative of the Ukrainian people, the Black Army, did against the Tsar and Bolsheviks—but the options here are not war or Ukrainian annihilation. The recent flexing and insanity since 2014 can end if the EuroMaidan putsch government resigns (The US can make them), stops the electoral suppression, and hosts a free and fair election free from any oligarchic influence. No Ukrainian wants this hellscape to go any longer, and the US government supporting the current militias and oligarchs will cause blowback once there are millions of dollars worth of weapons sold on the black market to terrorist groups around the world.

You know, PSOL, every election in Ukraine was fair and free. Each since independence (excluding Round 2 of 2004, when the results were falsified in favor of Yanukovych, resulting in the Orange Revolution). In 1999, Kuchma's main rival, Chornovil, was killed. Of course, the latter would have won if he had been alive, but in reality Kuchma defeated Symonenko without any falsifications. The 2014 elections were completely fair and transparent. As for 2019, I cannot deny that the influence of the oligarchs took place, but it was rather a manipulation of voters' opinions through slander against Poroshenko. The elections of that year were fair and free.

As for Euromaidan, it was not a coup, and the Nazis did not come to power as a result, as is popularly believed. The power that was established after the Euromaidan was absolutely legitimate, and Poroshenko became the first President to take care, first of all, of the country and then of himself, and not the other way around, as everyone before and after him did.

I never said this, nor have I believed it since the creation of this thread.

EuroMaidan was a US-backed coup that has led to the state financing fascist groups to routinely harass and attack opponents of the new regime. As bad as Yanukovich was, the dominant faction on the streets were those willing to sell Ukraine to the highest bidder to the EU and NATO bloc, not anyone who cares about the people.

The severe entrenchment of Ukrainian oligarchs from the chaos and insanity of the news media in fooling the people to vote in for austerity freaks and for some to join fascist militias to fight not just Russia, but hidden columns in Ukraine threatening the Ukrainian “race”. This cannot be compared to the regulatory control in the EU and even the United States.

For the United States to give the Mobotu and Shah treatment to the current clown administration and allow for an interim government to take control is the best course of action to preserve the current boundaries of the state of Ukraine and for the mismanagement to stop. Peace is still possible here. Prosperity and freedom for your people is still possible here.

[Splash]

EuroMaidan was not a "US-backed coup" and the Nyland-Pyatt phone conversation is hardly evidence to the contrary. If you consider that the conversation was centered on the short-lived Agreement on Settlement of the Political Crisis in Ukraine, then it's evidence of arguably heavy-handed US involvement the political machinations of a failed peace settlement but nothing coming close to an actual coup.

I mean, they literally talk about approaching Yanukovych the following day about the possibility putting forward Yatsenyuk as a PM candidate acceptable to the Party of Regions, which isn't normally something that one would do in a coup.