Sultan Qaboos is dead
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Kalwejt
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« on: January 11, 2020, 06:25:46 AM »

This is pretty big news.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/gulf/2020/01/11/Sultan-of-Oman-dies-Oman-state-media.html
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andjey
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2020, 07:23:39 AM »

Massive FF. Rest in peace
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2020, 08:11:46 AM »


I'd rather say a "model modern enlightened despot".

Very inconvenient timing.
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Frodo
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2020, 03:08:53 PM »

Curious to see whose name he wrote down in that letter he left before he died.  Hopefully it will be someone just like him. 
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2020, 03:11:51 PM »

Curious to see whose name he wrote down in that letter he left before he died.  Hopefully it will be someone just like him. 

It's alredy been sorted out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitham_bin_Tariq_Al_Said
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Paul Weller
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2020, 07:39:37 PM »

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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2020, 10:15:16 PM »

I'm going to interrupt the lovefest on a Middle Eastern absolute monarch and say RIP, HP.
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PSOL
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2020, 10:27:18 PM »

I'm going to interrupt the lovefest on a Middle Eastern absolute monarch and say RIP, HP.
Thank you. He was an autocratic despot that suppressed the Omani people twice, once in the 70s and again during the Arab Spring. Are all you people gushing over Qaboos going to say the same about Gaddafi?
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Paul Weller
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2020, 11:26:11 PM »

I'm going to interrupt the lovefest on a Middle Eastern absolute monarch and say RIP, HP.
Thank you. He was an autocratic despot that suppressed the Omani people twice, once in the 70s and again during the Arab Spring. Are all you people gushing over Qaboos going to say the same about Gaddafi?

I'm not usually one who buys into the "strongman being necessary for the development of his country" trope, and I think it's untrue in most cases, examples being Park Chung-hee and Lee Kuan Yew. However, in my opinion Qaboos is an exception. He could've chosen to be like his father and done nothing to better the country, but instead he proved himself to be far better than he had any right to be. The internal improvements he made to Oman are obvious and well-known, but he also distinguished himself internationally by maintaining a position of neutrality and serving as a mediator in many instances. He refused to get Oman involved in proxy wars, and played a crucial role as an intermediary during the Iran Nuclear Deal negotiations. Also, unlike the other Gulf states of Bahrain, Qatar, and the UAE, Oman isn't a filthy rich petrostate, built off the backs of abused migrant workers, that uses its cash to fund terrorism. The Middle East would be a much better place if there were more rulers like Qaboos in charge.
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PSOL
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2020, 11:39:47 PM »

I'm going to interrupt the lovefest on a Middle Eastern absolute monarch and say RIP, HP.
Thank you. He was an autocratic despot that suppressed the Omani people twice, once in the 70s and again during the Arab Spring. Are all you people gushing over Qaboos going to say the same about Gaddafi?

I'm not usually one who buys into the "strongman being necessary for the development of his country" trope, and I think it's untrue in most cases, examples being Park Chung-hee and Lee Kuan Yew. However, in my opinion Qaboos is an exception. He could've chosen to be like his father and done nothing to better the country, but instead he proved himself to be far better than he had any right to be. The internal improvements he made to Oman are obvious and well-known, but he also distinguished himself internationally by maintaining a position of neutrality and serving as a mediator in many instances. He refused to get Oman involved in proxy wars, and played a crucial role as an intermediary during the Iran Nuclear Deal negotiations. Also, unlike the other Gulf states of Bahrain, Qatar, and the UAE, Oman isn't a filthy rich petrostate, built off the backs of abused migrant workers, that uses its cash to fund terrorism. The Middle East would be a much better place if there were more rulers like Qaboos in charge.
A Democratic Oman would have done the same, without spending the people’s money on royal yahts And having one of the highest defense spending % in the world, nor would they have suppressed the movement of Oman further into a better era.

Your claim that migrants aren’t doing the brunt of the backbreaking work in Oman are also false.
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Famous Mortimer
WillipsBrighton
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2020, 01:13:28 AM »

I'm going to interrupt the lovefest on a Middle Eastern absolute monarch and say RIP, HP.
Thank you. He was an autocratic despot that suppressed the Omani people twice, once in the 70s and again during the Arab Spring. Are all you people gushing over Qaboos going to say the same about Gaddafi?

I'm not usually one who buys into the "strongman being necessary for the development of his country" trope, and I think it's untrue in most cases, examples being Park Chung-hee and Lee Kuan Yew. However, in my opinion Qaboos is an exception. He could've chosen to be like his father and done nothing to better the country, but instead he proved himself to be far better than he had any right to be. The internal improvements he made to Oman are obvious and well-known, but he also distinguished himself internationally by maintaining a position of neutrality and serving as a mediator in many instances. He refused to get Oman involved in proxy wars, and played a crucial role as an intermediary during the Iran Nuclear Deal negotiations. Also, unlike the other Gulf states of Bahrain, Qatar, and the UAE, Oman isn't a filthy rich petrostate, built off the backs of abused migrant workers, that uses its cash to fund terrorism. The Middle East would be a much better place if there were more rulers like Qaboos in charge.
A Democratic Oman would have done the same, without spending the people’s money on royal yahts And having one of the highest defense spending % in the world, nor would they have suppressed the movement of Oman further into a better era.

Your claim that migrants aren’t doing the brunt of the backbreaking work in Oman are also false.

Well he stopped a communist takeover, increased literacy and life expectancy, kept out of other people's wars, and advocated for peace but he didn't let people cast a ballot for the pro-IMF party or the slightly less pro-IMF party every 4 years so screw him, HP.
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Devout Centrist
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2020, 02:31:16 AM »

I'm going to interrupt the lovefest on a Middle Eastern absolute monarch and say RIP, HP.
Thank you. He was an autocratic despot that suppressed the Omani people twice, once in the 70s and again during the Arab Spring. Are all you people gushing over Qaboos going to say the same about Gaddafi?

I'm not usually one who buys into the "strongman being necessary for the development of his country" trope, and I think it's untrue in most cases, examples being Park Chung-hee and Lee Kuan Yew. However, in my opinion Qaboos is an exception. He could've chosen to be like his father and done nothing to better the country, but instead he proved himself to be far better than he had any right to be. The internal improvements he made to Oman are obvious and well-known, but he also distinguished himself internationally by maintaining a position of neutrality and serving as a mediator in many instances. He refused to get Oman involved in proxy wars, and played a crucial role as an intermediary during the Iran Nuclear Deal negotiations. Also, unlike the other Gulf states of Bahrain, Qatar, and the UAE, Oman isn't a filthy rich petrostate, built off the backs of abused migrant workers, that uses its cash to fund terrorism. The Middle East would be a much better place if there were more rulers like Qaboos in charge.
A Democratic Oman would have done the same, without spending the people’s money on royal yahts And having one of the highest defense spending % in the world, nor would they have suppressed the movement of Oman further into a better era.

Your claim that migrants aren’t doing the brunt of the backbreaking work in Oman are also false.

Well he stopped a communist fascist takeover, increased literacy and life expectancy, kept out of other people's wars, and advocated for peace but he didn't let people cast a ballot for the pro-IMF party or the slightly less pro-IMF party every 4 years so screw him, HP.
"He who feeds you, controls you" --Thomas Sankara* --Snowstalker
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Co-Chair Bagel23
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2020, 02:46:19 AM »

Rip ff, the one good gulf Arab country, I love you Oman Smiley.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2020, 05:34:21 AM »

Tbh "enlightened despot" sounds about right, the point is that the second word also applies.
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kaoras
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2020, 06:40:10 AM »

My Arab teacher said he and his friend referred to him as Sultan Kaboos (nightmare)
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2020, 08:32:34 AM »

I'm going to interrupt the lovefest on a Middle Eastern absolute monarch and say RIP, HP.
Thank you. He was an autocratic despot that suppressed the Omani people twice, once in the 70s and again during the Arab Spring. Are all you people gushing over Qaboos going to say the same about Gaddafi?

I'm not usually one who buys into the "strongman being necessary for the development of his country" trope, and I think it's untrue in most cases, examples being Park Chung-hee and Lee Kuan Yew. However, in my opinion Qaboos is an exception. He could've chosen to be like his father and done nothing to better the country, but instead he proved himself to be far better than he had any right to be. The internal improvements he made to Oman are obvious and well-known, but he also distinguished himself internationally by maintaining a position of neutrality and serving as a mediator in many instances. He refused to get Oman involved in proxy wars, and played a crucial role as an intermediary during the Iran Nuclear Deal negotiations. Also, unlike the other Gulf states of Bahrain, Qatar, and the UAE, Oman isn't a filthy rich petrostate, built off the backs of abused migrant workers, that uses its cash to fund terrorism. The Middle East would be a much better place if there were more rulers like Qaboos in charge.
A Democratic Oman would have done the same, without spending the people’s money on royal yahts And having one of the highest defense spending % in the world, nor would they have suppressed the movement of Oman further into a better era.

Your claim that migrants aren’t doing the brunt of the backbreaking work in Oman are also false.

I'm actually willing to defend the defense spending (pun unintended), given Oman's very important strategic location, as well as the fact its' in rather dangerous neighbourhood.

I don't think we can truly predict how would a democratic Oman act, but I agree about the danger of perpetuating the notion that strongmen are somehow a necessary or desirable precondition for development. And Qaboos was indeed a ruthless despot, and had no qualms against using his peoples' money for personal pleasures.
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Vosem
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2020, 05:27:22 PM »

I don't think there's much of a contradiction in saying that, by the standards of a Middle Eastern sheikh, he was indeed a massive FF...but those standards are so amazingly, horrifically low that they allow a man who was in fact a brutal tyrant to be fairly described as an FF in comparison with his peers.
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LAKISYLVANIA
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2020, 06:53:30 PM »

he was in Belgium in december for medical purposes. He rented an entire hotel in Leuven.

HP obviously.
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2020, 08:08:28 PM »

It's worth mentioning there were longtime rumours the Sultan was deep in the closet, which, if true, would be especially relevant, given Oman's laws penalizing homosexuals.

At any rate, sure, Oman developed a lot during his reign, and he largely kept it neutral in what is a dangerous neighbourhood. And yes, there were some small, slow political reforms, but Oman remained overall an oppressive regime.
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Alex
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2020, 09:12:57 PM »

I'm going to interrupt the lovefest on a Middle Eastern absolute monarch and say RIP, HP.
Thank you. He was an autocratic despot that suppressed the Omani people twice, once in the 70s and again during the Arab Spring. Are all you people gushing over Qaboos going to say the same about Gaddafi?

I'm not usually one who buys into the "strongman being necessary for the development of his country" trope, and I think it's untrue in most cases, examples being Park Chung-hee and Lee Kuan Yew. However, in my opinion Qaboos is an exception. He could've chosen to be like his father and done nothing to better the country, but instead he proved himself to be far better than he had any right to be. The internal improvements he made to Oman are obvious and well-known, but he also distinguished himself internationally by maintaining a position of neutrality and serving as a mediator in many instances. He refused to get Oman involved in proxy wars, and played a crucial role as an intermediary during the Iran Nuclear Deal negotiations. Also, unlike the other Gulf states of Bahrain, Qatar, and the UAE, Oman isn't a filthy rich petrostate, built off the backs of abused migrant workers, that uses its cash to fund terrorism. The Middle East would be a much better place if there were more rulers like Qaboos in charge.
having one of the highest defense spending % in the world,


TBF, even as a pacifist myself, I can see why Oman would want a ridiculously high defense spending, considering that it's sandwiched between Saudi Arabia, Iran and the always unstable Yemen



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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2020, 10:45:04 PM »

Tbh "enlightened despot" sounds about right, the point is that the second word also applies.

I don't think there's much of a contradiction in saying that, by the standards of a Middle Eastern sheikh, he was indeed a massive FF...but those standards are so amazingly, horrifically low that they allow a man who was in fact a brutal tyrant to be fairly described as an FF in comparison with his peers.

Yes, these points exactly. I was certainly not trying to claim that Qaboos was nearly as much of an HP as the constellation of other Gulf potentates who ebbed and flowed around him.
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Indy Texas
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2020, 11:19:17 PM »

I'm going to interrupt the lovefest on a Middle Eastern absolute monarch and say RIP, HP.
Thank you. He was an autocratic despot that suppressed the Omani people twice, once in the 70s and again during the Arab Spring. Are all you people gushing over Qaboos going to say the same about Gaddafi?

I'm not usually one who buys into the "strongman being necessary for the development of his country" trope, and I think it's untrue in most cases, examples being Park Chung-hee and Lee Kuan Yew. However, in my opinion Qaboos is an exception. He could've chosen to be like his father and done nothing to better the country, but instead he proved himself to be far better than he had any right to be. The internal improvements he made to Oman are obvious and well-known, but he also distinguished himself internationally by maintaining a position of neutrality and serving as a mediator in many instances. He refused to get Oman involved in proxy wars, and played a crucial role as an intermediary during the Iran Nuclear Deal negotiations. Also, unlike the other Gulf states of Bahrain, Qatar, and the UAE, Oman isn't a filthy rich petrostate, built off the backs of abused migrant workers, that uses its cash to fund terrorism. The Middle East would be a much better place if there were more rulers like Qaboos in charge.
A Democratic Oman would have done the same, without spending the people’s money on royal yahts And having one of the highest defense spending % in the world, nor would they have suppressed the movement of Oman further into a better era.

Your claim that migrants aren’t doing the brunt of the backbreaking work in Oman are also false.

What makes you say that? At this point, the only countries in the Middle East that can conceivably be called 'democratic' are Israel and Lebanon, and both have governments that are dens of corruption and dysfunction.
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Indy Texas
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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2020, 11:23:46 PM »

It's worth mentioning there were longtime rumours the Sultan was deep in the closet, which, if true, would be especially relevant, given Oman's laws penalizing homosexuals.

He was married for a few years, never had children with his wife, quietly divorced while he was still quite young, and never married again.

I'm willing to wager he wasn't a "ladies' man" if you get my drift.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2020, 08:00:01 AM »

I'm going to interrupt the lovefest on a Middle Eastern absolute monarch and say RIP, HP.
Thank you. He was an autocratic despot that suppressed the Omani people twice, once in the 70s and again during the Arab Spring. Are all you people gushing over Qaboos going to say the same about Gaddafi?

I'm not usually one who buys into the "strongman being necessary for the development of his country" trope, and I think it's untrue in most cases, examples being Park Chung-hee and Lee Kuan Yew. However, in my opinion Qaboos is an exception. He could've chosen to be like his father and done nothing to better the country, but instead he proved himself to be far better than he had any right to be. The internal improvements he made to Oman are obvious and well-known, but he also distinguished himself internationally by maintaining a position of neutrality and serving as a mediator in many instances. He refused to get Oman involved in proxy wars, and played a crucial role as an intermediary during the Iran Nuclear Deal negotiations. Also, unlike the other Gulf states of Bahrain, Qatar, and the UAE, Oman isn't a filthy rich petrostate, built off the backs of abused migrant workers, that uses its cash to fund terrorism. The Middle East would be a much better place if there were more rulers like Qaboos in charge.
A Democratic Oman would have done the same, without spending the people’s money on royal yahts And having one of the highest defense spending % in the world, nor would they have suppressed the movement of Oman further into a better era.

Your claim that migrants aren’t doing the brunt of the backbreaking work in Oman are also false.

What makes you say that? At this point, the only countries in the Middle East that can conceivably be called 'democratic' are Israel and Lebanon, and both have governments that are dens of corruption and dysfunction.

Tunisia, or are you not counting them as "Middle East"?
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America Needs R'hllor
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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2020, 10:29:43 AM »

I'm going to interrupt the lovefest on a Middle Eastern absolute monarch and say RIP, HP.
Thank you. He was an autocratic despot that suppressed the Omani people twice, once in the 70s and again during the Arab Spring. Are all you people gushing over Qaboos going to say the same about Gaddafi?

I'm not usually one who buys into the "strongman being necessary for the development of his country" trope, and I think it's untrue in most cases, examples being Park Chung-hee and Lee Kuan Yew. However, in my opinion Qaboos is an exception. He could've chosen to be like his father and done nothing to better the country, but instead he proved himself to be far better than he had any right to be. The internal improvements he made to Oman are obvious and well-known, but he also distinguished himself internationally by maintaining a position of neutrality and serving as a mediator in many instances. He refused to get Oman involved in proxy wars, and played a crucial role as an intermediary during the Iran Nuclear Deal negotiations. Also, unlike the other Gulf states of Bahrain, Qatar, and the UAE, Oman isn't a filthy rich petrostate, built off the backs of abused migrant workers, that uses its cash to fund terrorism. The Middle East would be a much better place if there were more rulers like Qaboos in charge.
A Democratic Oman would have done the same, without spending the people’s money on royal yahts And having one of the highest defense spending % in the world, nor would they have suppressed the movement of Oman further into a better era.

Your claim that migrants aren’t doing the brunt of the backbreaking work in Oman are also false.

I'm actually willing to defend the defense spending (pun unintended), given Oman's very important strategic location, as well as the fact its' in rather dangerous neighbourhood.

I don't think we can truly predict how would a democratic Oman act, but I agree about the danger of perpetuating the notion that strongmen are somehow a necessary or desirable precondition for development. And Qaboos was indeed a ruthless despot, and had no qualms against using his peoples' money for personal pleasures.

Yeah, basically why I recommended both HenryWallace's and Nathan's posts. Sultan Qaboos was certainly an overall net positive influence on the region, and was better than other Sultans would be for his country, but he can't be described as a good person, or, indeed, a very contradictory "freedom fighter".
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