UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[Geoffrey Howe]

Perhaps some of the British posters here could help explain this to me.
(By the way, I am not and do not 'identify as' a Tory.)

Under a Tory government, when anything health-related goes wrong (or the Labour Party needs something to campaign on), it is because the Tories have been starving 'our NHS' of funds, or 'privatising' it. Yet no government since 1945 has ever reduced spending on healthcare, and since 2010 as percentage of GDP it has only really plateaued.

When anything goes well, e.g. vaccines so far, it is because of the 'wonderful' NHS (the same thing which has been destroyed by the Tories) and volunteers.

Now I am not trying to defend Tory healthcare policy, which I don't know much about; but this seems wildly inconsistent. Maybe it's a bit of a straw-man, but I hear it a lot. And as for the vaccine programme, I think it's widely acknowledged that much of our success relative to other countries is down to Kate Bingham, a venture capitalist.

[Geoffrey Howe]

(In fact I am a member of the Labour Party, which I joined to vote in the leadership election, and not for entryist reasons. Now some people here might say that my vote for Keir Starmer is proof of entryism...)

[Geoffrey Howe]

Not this sh**t again.

France uses Second Ballot, which is arguably even less representative. Also, as plenty of other countries demonstrate, PR doesn't give you good politicians.

PR is a wonderful way of getting governments that everybody hates. Indeed, our one recent example of coalition is proof positive that the electorate doesn’t want politicians from different sides to work together.

Would you regard Israel as a success for PR?...

Anyway, from what I can tell, people don't understand how to use STV - i.e. people giving their first preference tactically. I know someone who is campaigning for the Greens in the London Mayoral and apparently this is a big problem for them.

[Geoffrey Howe]

The problem for London is that you can’t expect people to understand a system used in an election with 30% turnout and where Labour actively say ‘it’s a two horse race’!

I’m being slightly vacuous but the races in London have always been relatively boring and haven’t really been changed by being ATV.

Well fair enough, it might be better advertised (or manipulated) in a national election.

But it also shows just how little some people think before casting their ballot.

[Geoffrey Howe]

I would be wary of reading a *massive* amount into an undertaking a decade ago which was putting forward far from the most popular option for electoral reform, and for a large number of people turned into a de facto plebiscite on one of the most despised politicians of modern times.

Though of course it *could* be passed without a referendum, especially if various parties committed to that in their manifestos.

Though it may have been a vote on Clegg, it did best where the Lib Dems lost support to Labour in 2015.

[Geoffrey Howe]

Mr Hancock is a shareholder of a possible NHS supplier. His sister is also a director.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56768601

He has declared it in the register, and they haven't (I think) won any contracts yet with NHS England. But this may not end up looking too good.

[Geoffrey Howe]

People already saying "all this sleaze will make no difference, look at the polls".

But that's how it works; it doesn't make any difference - until, one day, it does.

Well indeed. But is this sleaze? They may well be perfectly qualified to do the job, we don't know; and anyway they haven't got a contract yet. Obviously if they do there will be serious questions.

[Geoffrey Howe]

More 'lobbying scandals', this time with Brexiteer Mr Dyson.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56819137

It seems wrong that he should be personally communicating with the PM, but his actual request seems perfectly acceptable when, in a time of crisis, the government was asking companies to take a risk of loss (which materialised) to help provide equipment for the NHS. (Maybe I've misunderstood this, but if it is what it took to get ventilators when it was thought they were urgently needed, I cannot blame Mr Johnson.)

[Geoffrey Howe]

Umm, when one is in a time of crisis such as then, one isn't exactly inclined to be too discriminating or reject offers because they might fail or not produce as much as one would like. It's much the same principle with vaccines. Surely it's perfectly fair that if he/his employees were going to come to the UK to try and help - taking a risk, and they did end up with a loss - they shouldn't be taxed extra? It seems a fair compromise on the part of the government trying to get equipment when (it was thought) desperately needed.

[Geoffrey Howe]

Yes, Norman Fowler. What is Lord McFall like? And those he beat?

[Geoffrey Howe]

^ What did Lord McFall do in the crash?

[Geoffrey Howe]

McFall is perhaps best known for his role in the financial crash.

Alderdice came surprisingly close.  I suppose it's possible the NI situation may have helped him.  He is a former leader of the Alliance Party (Northern Ireland LD affiliate).

Hayter is from the right of Labour and according to Wikipedia:
was sacked as Shadow Brexit Minister for making what Labour called "deeply offensive" remarks at a Labour First group meeting, asserting that the party's leadership was not open to external views and comparing them to being "in a bunker" like the "last days of Hitler".

You’ve just changed your political matrix score, Conservatopia, to become even crazier

[Geoffrey Howe]

Nah I'm still your friendly neighborhood Patel-ite.

The two terms do not compute...I shouldn't move to Glos.

Not a lot - that's the problem.

To be fair he wasn't really to blame but they say perception is reality.

Basically he was chair of the committee overseeing banking and some people say he didn't do a great deal before the crash to investigate what some saw as warning signs.  He was very zealous in the aftermath however.

Ah, nothing that should disqualify him as Lord Speaker. Who did you support? Alderdice seems like a decent fellow. One wonders what makes a 'good' (Lord) Speaker.

[Geoffrey Howe]

I supported McFall but unlike in the Commons Speaker election I didn't really care a great deal who won.  The Lord Speaker is even less of a political role than Commons Speaker.  No bellowing "order" and such like.  Alderdice being a Lib Dem hurt him because many in the two main parties can't countenance a Lib Dem being speaker.

Makes sense. Who did you support in the Commons speakership election? It was interesting that a Labour MP should be easily chosen in a landslide Tory House. I don't really know what the distinctions were between them all.

The Speaker election was before the general election bear in mind.

I supported Hoyle (Lab).  Many Tories backed him over Bryant (Lab) as they worried Bryant could be more inclined to be partisan.  Bryant was also a proud Remainer whilst Hoyle has never given any clues which way he voted in the referendum.  Hoyle has long been a highly respected MP and enjoyed broad support across the House.  This can be seen in the list of nominations with rightwingers such as Charles Walker, arch remainers like Joan Ryan and Brexit-curious Labourites like Caroline Flint all backing him.  After years of Bercow (a Tory) stymying them Tories weren't really too bothered to support an MP from the other side.  Leigh was the candidate of the Tory Right but I saw no sense in backing him because he clearly wasn't going to win.  Laing is also a Brexiteer Tory and came quite close but I was never too impressed with her performances as Deputy Speaker.

Ah yes it was before the election. This makes a lot of sense. Hoyle seems to wear a morning suit sometimes - Bercow never did? Or is this an illusion on my part?

[Geoffrey Howe]

It was generally expected (although like a lot of parliamentary rules it was probably a lot newer than people thought) that the Speakers should rotate between the two main parties- this rule was broken by Michael Martin winning in 2000, where the Labour Government supported George Young but the sizeable Government backbenches wanted one of their own & elected Martin- who was rather inept.

It was a very young "rule" indeed in 2000.  For many years until Betty Boothroyd's election in 1992 Speakers had been members of the governing party at the time of their election, and there were four consecutive ex-Tory Speakers from 1928 until 1965.  It is perhaps becoming a more established rule now, though Bercow was very detatched from his party by the time of his election and was Labour's choice.

I think Martin was a poor choice, but some of the stick he got ("Gorbals Mick") was pretty nasty stuff.

Looking back at some constituency results, it seems fairly recent that the main parties do not contest the Speaker's seat. There were some close results; the Speaker usually did as well after becoming Speaker for that party in the seat as before.

[Geoffrey Howe]

Looking back at some constituency results, it seems fairly recent that the main parties do not contest the Speaker's seat. There were some close results; the Speaker usually did as well after becoming Speaker for that party in the seat as before.

The different parties have had different attitudes.  Bercow was actually the first ex-Tory speaker for some time not to have Labour opposition; they stood against Weatherill in 1987, Lloyd in 1974 and Hylton-Foster in 1964.  The Tories, though, have never put up a candidate against an ex-Labour Speaker, and indeed not since any Speaker since 1895.  (They were threatening to stand against Bercow if he stood again, though.)  Curiously the Liberals/SDP also stood against the ex-Tory speakers when Labour did, but not against the ex-Labour ones.

The Nationalist parties haven't stood down: the SNP stood against Martin in both 2001 and 2005, and Plaid also stood against George Thomas.

Ah, interesting to hear. Was there a central policy for the Tories on that? I wonder why Labour persisted.

[Geoffrey Howe]

Unrelated to the substance of your post (sorry), how big is Mr Cummings' blog readership?

[Geoffrey Howe]

I very much think that the flat story is the one most likely to cause damage here...

It tends to be the drip-drip of repeated stories that really does the damage, but I agree that one could be bad for him, depending on what actually happened and how much gets out.

As someone who has never got the appeal of Johnson, though, I'm not in the best position to judge what will get people who like him to change their minds.

Why do people care so much about his flat? The No 10 and No 11 flats seem to be in a perennial state of disrepair. Cummings did say his plans might be illegal though.

[Geoffrey Howe]

Just looking at BBC News it does feel like we're getting into the stage where a government has been in for too long, has no ideas left and all the news is dreary 'sleaze'. Is this a bit like what the end of the Major years felt like?

[Geoffrey Howe]

Just looking at BBC News it does feel like we're getting into the stage where a government has been in for too long, has no ideas left and all the news is dreary 'sleaze'. Is this a bit like what the end of the Major years felt like?

Its been that way since the days of... well, Cameron.

Certainly not from the referendum till COVID.

[Geoffrey Howe]

Well the whole Brexit process was hardly dull. For one thing, it always felt like May wouldn't be able to stay in any longer.

[Geoffrey Howe]

Well the whole Brexit process was hardly dull. For one thing, it always felt like May wouldn't be able to stay in any longer.

Well, after the 2017 GE that was certainly true. Not so much before then.

Well there was the Miller case and the ridiculous headlines, Article 50 triggering etc.

[Geoffrey Howe]

Do you not remember this? (I can’t bring myself to post the disgraceful headline about the judges.)

[Geoffrey Howe]

Johnson lost his rag today at PMQs, it really wasn't a pretty sight.

People complain about Corbyn twitter but the sight of Boris/Tory twitter defending him today and calling him a 'national hero' was gut-wrenching.

I just do not understand the psychological need some people evidently have to debase themselves in that way over politicians, of all people.

Over these politicians in particular, of all people.

[Geoffrey Howe]

Re the flat business, this was in The Times today:

Sir,
A larger role for the state in the maintenance of official buildings is long overdue (leading article, Apr 28). No controversy would have arisen today in relation to the prime minister’s official residence if a plan proposed by the Treasury in 1885 had been agreed. A new use was needed for Dover House, the grand mansion in Whitehall where Lord Melbourne, Queen Victoria’s first prime minister, had once lived. The Treasury offered to refurbish it and keep it thereafter in a style worthy of all prime ministers in perpetuity. The cabinet as a whole approved, but Gladstone, in power at the time, refused to move because his wife could not be expected to entertain on the lavish scale that would be required. Mrs Gladstone was indeed a lamentable hostess, but Carrie Symonds would surely have been in her element in a large elegant house decorated to her specifications at the state’s expense.

Lord Lexden