UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[brucejoel99]

British people like to say they have an "unwritten" constitution, but what this effectively means is that there's no constitution at all. Anybody who can command a majority in Parliament has absolute & unchecked power over the country, meaning Britain is just one Act of Parliament away from the Supreme Court being abolished. Britain is just one Act of Parliament away from habeas corpus being abolished. Indeed, Britain is just one Act of Parliament away from elections & democracy being abolished.

[brucejoel99]

For the Liberal Democrats, who will likely run to succeed Swinson? Daisy Cooper? Munira Wilson?

The 3 names floating about are Moran, Davey, & Cooper.

Davey is currently co-Acting Leader by virtue of having veen made Deputy Leader after Swinson beat him in the last election, but I'm fairly sure he still won't win it; the Coalition was a major stumbling block last election & everybody's aware that Davey will just continue those problems.

Cooper is a wildcard.

All signs tend to point toward Moran, & she seems like the likeliest choice: she has a solid constituency & comes across well on TV, but I don't know if she's leadership material, & that story about her slapping her boyfriend will resurface (though I think it'll affect opinion much less than some think & would instead just be trumpeted about by people who were never gonna vote Lib Dem anyway).

FWIW, my bet would've been Andrew George to lead the Lib Dems had he managed to regain his old seat, but rather than doing so, he fell behind by quite the margin.

[brucejoel99]

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1208036791623831552

We don't deserve McDonnell's sense of humor lmao

[brucejoel99]

You know, if McDonnell hadn't needlessly screwed over that poor old sot Michael Meacher in 2007, and act that blackened his name to the soft Left and meant that ballot access in 2015 was for him impossible, it would have been him who stood in 2015. One wonders how things might have played out differently. McDonnell has severe baggage issues as well (though not so many), but sounder political judgment and a serious manner. I've said it before, and I suspect McDonnell would not appreciate the comparison, but he has much in common with Philip Snowden.

Anyway an interesting thing is that relations between McDonnell's people and Corbyn's people have not been good for a while. Quite what they are like between the men themselves (and this is now a historical point rather than an active political one) we don't know. Though it is the way of such things that we will eventually find out.

Nah. McDonnell's great but he has just as much a dark history as Corbyn; perhaps moreso regarding the IRA issue (McDonnell is on record as praising the "bombs and bullets that brought the British Government to the negotiating table"). I think he'd have been better able to defend himself/apologize, but the media would've still had more than enough ammo to destroy him.

[brucejoel99]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/12/20/uk/boris-johnson-brexit-deal-parliament-vote-gbr-intl/index.html


This is great news

Sheer insanity is nothing worth celebrating.

[brucejoel99]

Boris wants Ireland to pay for a Bridge to Scotland.

Ahh yes, Ireland should pay for a bridge that would lie completely within the United Kingdom's internal borders. Makes complete sense!!

[brucejoel99]

Boris is already proving to be the best Tory PM since Thatcher

He's objectively the worst PM in modern history, let alone since Thatcher.

[brucejoel99]

The Withdrawal Agreement recieves royal assent.

Alright Brexiteers, over to you now. We've had a lot of promises & it's time to deliver on them. And you'll have nobody to blame if Brexit f**ks up. You got what you wanted &, now, you have to live with it.

Oh, who am I kidding, they'll always blame somebody other than themselves.

Bercow is also having a bad day, between the government denying him a peerage and a dossier regarding the bullying allegations against him being presented.

Hmmm, perfectly timed accusations to stop him from becoming a peer.

*Dominic Cummings intensifies*

[brucejoel99]

Remember how some were predicting that Brexit would bring the United Kingdom and the United States closer together, especially under their current leadership?  Now Trump is threatening yet another trade war and Johnson is considering ending the longstanding alliance between our two countries:

Trump is threatening a damaging new trade war with the United Kingdom after Brexit

He has a single-note foreign policy: bluster & threaten to try & get what he wants, intentionally let a situation deteriorate, & then, when things revert to where they were before he started messing them up, demand credit & claim that he's achieved an unprecedented breakthrough. Anybody seriously expecting that Trump would bend over backwards to get a trade deal with the UK just because he's buddies with BoJo either hasn't been paying attention to what Trump's been doing on the world stage over the past 3 years (e.g. Iran, North Korea, the Chinese trade war), or has been intentionally ignoring it.

[brucejoel99]

Probably won't last for long - and it is early enough for it not to matter too much - but the latest GE poll:

CON: 49% (+4)
LAB: 29% (-4)
LDEM: 10% (-2)
GRN: 4% (+1)
BREX: 2% (-)

Impressive after 10 years of government.

[brucejoel99]

Farage's farewell speech. I hope the EU takes his words to heart. The Union is a disingenuous violation of national sovereignty and it needs to be destroyed.

Being a single zebra, even a strong one, is always less strong than being in the herd. The members of the EU each agreed to give up some of their sovereignty in exchange for a stronger position in the world. That was their sovereign choice: to defer to, & be bound by, the EU.

Not to mention, all countries in the EU still have the power to refuse to follow EU directives anyway, precisely because they are indeed still sovereign countries. Of course, such countries would potentially face consequences if they were to do so, as the EU is still a club with rules, after all, but for such countries, it's a simple matter of deciding whether the potential consequences are worth taking the action: that is also their sovereign choice.

So take your uninformed opinions about sovereignty.

[brucejoel99]

Farage's farewell speech. I hope the EU takes his words to heart. The Union is a disingenuous violation of national sovereignty and it needs to be destroyed.

Oh my God you're also one of these f**king people. Good grief. One minute you're posting well-researched effortposts and the next you're back with the bottom-of-the-barrel dumbass cold takes.

Westphalian sovereignty isn't controversial outside of far-left groups and the boards of multinational corporations. But politics makes strange bedfellows, I suppose.

The principle of Westphalian sovereignty (the very concept of which originated within an international agreement) can & has been tempered by international agreements, which in & of themselves help to comprise international law! The fact that the UK was able to voluntarily withdraw from the EU treaties is, in & of itself, proof that your argument over 'sovereignty' is, was, & always will be complete & utter nonsense.

Farage's farewell speech. I hope the EU takes his words to heart. The Union is a disingenuous violation of national sovereignty and it needs to be destroyed.

Being a single zebra, even a strong one, is always less strong than being in the herd.

Stopped reading here. Collectivist rhetoric isn't just logically wrong, it's boring and repetitive. You don't even know what you're saying; you're just puking up the BS leftist ideology you've been raised in.

Thank you John Dule, very cool!

[brucejoel99]

Farage's farewell speech. I hope the EU takes his words to heart. The Union is a disingenuous violation of national sovereignty and it needs to be destroyed.

Oh my God you're also one of these f**king people. Good grief. One minute you're posting well-researched effortposts and the next you're back with the bottom-of-the-barrel dumbass cold takes.

Westphalian sovereignty isn't controversial outside of far-left groups and the boards of multinational corporations. But politics makes strange bedfellows, I suppose.

The principle of Westphalian sovereignty (the very concept of which originated within an international agreement) can & has been tempered by international agreements, which in & of themselves help to comprise international law! The fact that the UK was able to voluntarily withdraw from the EU treaties is, in & of itself, proof that your argument over 'sovereignty' is, was, & always will be complete & utter nonsense.

Oh please, the EU is not just another international institution. Does NAFTA have a president? Can its courts override the US constitution? Where is the army of ASEAN?

The EU stopped being a representative institution when it rammed the Lisbon treaty through. Macron and Merkel are discussing an EU army. I'm glad the UK got out while it still could. The rest of the member nations need to start feeling the slow boil of the pot they're in, or they'll be forever trapped as vassal states to Germany and France.

You keep forgetting that each member state is a sovereign country that voluntarily chose to voluntarily exercise their sovereignty so as to voluntarily cede certain competences to the EU in its treaties & which, at any time they so choose, can voluntarily stop doing so by once again voluntarily exercising their sovereignty so as to voluntarily withdraw.

Here's hoping you don't forget that it was all voluntary.

Farage's farewell speech. I hope the EU takes his words to heart. The Union is a disingenuous violation of national sovereignty and it needs to be destroyed.

Being a single zebra, even a strong one, is always less strong than being in the herd. The members of the EU each agreed to give up some of their sovereignty in exchange for a stronger position in the world. That was their sovereign choice: to defer to, & be bound by, the EU.

Not to mention, all countries in the EU still have the power to refuse to follow EU directives anyway, precisely because they are indeed still sovereign countries. Of course, such countries would potentially face consequences if they were to do so, as the EU is still a club with rules, after all, but for such countries, it's a simple matter of deciding whether the potential consequences are worth taking the action: that is also their sovereign choice.

So take your uninformed opinions about sovereignty & shove it.

The US has been a far better ally to the UK than the EU ever has so UK will benefit from a trade deal with the US.


Also Europe adopting US style nationalism(not the Trump style, the pre Trump style more like)>>> the EU easily

We've had this discussion before. I'm not having it again, except to say that if you think that Brexit will benefit the British economy, then good luck to you (or, rather, the British people). And even more luck to them if you think that there will ever be a trade deal with the US that benefits the UK in any greater way, shape, or size than the EU ever did. Trump will try to screw the UK over so much that the EU will have seemed like a blessing (which it really was).

[brucejoel99]

^ Trump hates the EU. Literally. He openly admits that to him, we are worse than China. He regards Europe in general, and Merkel and Macron in particular, as on par with, if not *the*  US' number one geopolitical enemy. He will give the UK a trade deal because everything that weakens Europe and poaches a country from the EUs sphere of Influence is a win for the Trump doctrine. Little economic logic behind it.
Both Johnson and Trump have an interest in weakening the EU position during UK-EU talks, and will use a prospective US-UK trade deal, and the now imminent Trade war with the EU (after the Ceasefire with China) to do so. You'll see how fast such a deal can be done, if the political will is really there (just look at the US-Israel FTA).

Which is why the Outcome of the US presidential election is going to be so massively important for the Balance of Power in the UK-EU trade talks (and at such a crucial time too, right before the deadline to reach a deal). If Trump is reelected, the UKs position will be much stronger, if  a democrat is, then the UK will find themselves very much out in the cold and hardly in a position not to bend to most of the EUs demands.

Keep in mind that the UK is negotiating as a tiny fish rather than as part of a large trading bloc. The reason that Trump hates the EU so much is because the EU is too big to be bullied by America in negotiations. Meanwhile, a lonesome UK, with no trade deals with its neighbors, will be easy pickings, because despite Trump & BoJo's bromance, the US doesn't have much incentive to make any exceptions in its game of playing hardball with trading partners when it's the more dominant player during negotiations. So that trade deal that BoJo is looking forward to will consist of nothing more than him selling off the UK to America for a couple of quid.

[brucejoel99]

Indy at 50% and 52% in new polls from Panelbase and Survation. SNP at over 50% in polling for Holyood in both.

Terrible news for Ed Miliband.

'Patriotic' Brexiteers 🤡 have made sure that Scottish independence is all-but-guaranteed. I guess that's a benefit for them, though, since it all-but-ensures perpetual Tory government, benefiting them with the state paying for their miserable existence, all to the detriment of the young.

[brucejoel99]

Indy at 50% and 52% in new polls from Panelbase and Survation. SNP at over 50% in polling for Holyood in both.

Terrible news for Ed Miliband.

'Patriotic' Brexiteers 🤡 have made sure that Scottish independence is all-but-guaranteed. I guess that's a benefit for them, though, since it all-but-ensures perpetual Tory government, benefiting them with the state paying for their miserable existence, all to the detriment of the young.

So... what do you believe exactly, that the old should be left to die in the road because a majority of them voted to leave the EU?

Besides, Scottish independence has been more likely than not since the Scottish Parliament was established; preventing Scotland being ‘dragged’ out of the EU is simply a (dubious) casus belli for the SNP to have another crack at a referendum.

The only thing here that's dubious is the argument that a significant change in circumstances is dubious.

[brucejoel99]

Indy at 50% and 52% in new polls from Panelbase and Survation. SNP at over 50% in polling for Holyood in both.

Terrible news for Ed Miliband.

'Patriotic' Brexiteers 🤡 have made sure that Scottish independence is all-but-guaranteed. I guess that's a benefit for them, though, since it all-but-ensures perpetual Tory government, benefiting them with the state paying for their miserable existence, all to the detriment of the young.

So... what do you believe exactly, that the old should be left to die in the road because a majority of them voted to leave the EU?

Besides, Scottish independence has been more likely than not since the Scottish Parliament was established; preventing Scotland being ‘dragged’ out of the EU is simply a (dubious) casus belli for the SNP to have another crack at a referendum.

The only thing here that's dubious is the argument that a significant change in circumstances is dubious.

Whether Scotland would be an EU member or not in the event of an independence vote was discussed in 2014, but was hardly the crux of the campaign. More to the point, the United Kingdom leaving the EU only represents a significant change in circumstances for Scotland should there be no free trade agreement between the UK and the EU+significant divergence in regulatory standards between the two. In that scenario, however, Scotland leaving a no-free trade agreement UK in order to rejoin the EU would be even more economically damaging for Scotland than staying put, given the considerably greater degree of economic interconnectedness between Scotland and the rest of the UK than between Scotland and the EU. This is a simple fact that belies the dubious ‘Scotland must be protected from a damaging no-deal Brexit’ case for independence.

From a democratic point of view, a change in circumstances from what was presumed to be likely before a referendum could very well invalidate the will behind the choice made in said referendum. Full stop. Now, I can't speak for Scotland but I'm more than fine with the vote being delayed until Brexit has been completed & the trade arrangements with the EU & USA are more clear than they currently are (&, in the meantime, the Scottish government needs to come up with a comprehensive, realistic plan for how Scotland would be run post-independence, & ought to commit to a confirmatory referendum on any deal with the UK that differs in any way from its plan too).

But let's be real here: this is BoJo we're talking about. He'll inevitably f**k up Brexit & Scotland will be in more turmoil than it currently is. I'm more than happy to wait for another year or 2 for a new referendum once we see what the terms of Brexit are (if BoJo actually manages to even get that far), but my initial point was that, if/when Scotland does get a new referendum (& BoJo should certainly just man up & allow them to have one), independence will be inevitable.

[brucejoel99]

Main news item to-day is the resignation - on Budget Day - of the Scottish finance minister under... um... something of a cloud.

On what planet did this guy think that his behavior could possibly be okay? I mean, what the f**k!? He's a fairly high-profile politician contacting a kid who's 26 years younger than him!

[brucejoel99]

It appears that Boris wants his bridge again.

BoJo & vanity bridge projects. Name a more iconic duo.

[brucejoel99]

At least we don't have chaos with Ed Miliband!

[brucejoel99]

It is noted that none of the Britannia Unchained gang any longer hold economic ministerial posts.

That depends on whether or not your definition of "economic ministerial post" includes or excludes posts held within BEIS & DIT.

[brucejoel99]

Boris has gone too far.  Sacking Theresa Villiers?  Traitor.

Villiers gone? Be still my beating heart... until she gets replaced by somebody who's worse, that is.

[brucejoel99]

Boris Johnson has tested positive for coronavirus and is self-isolating at Downing Street, but will still lead the government's response to the accelerating outbreak.

So it's possible that every member of the British Government he has met over the last week could get it?

[brucejoel99]

https://www.ft.com/content/c7f5a8bc-eb0e-45e5-a080-bbfd6d317def

Boris Johnson's approval ratings have risen by 25 points in reaction to his response on the coronavirus outbreak, more than any other polled leader. I find it that incredibly remarkable, since I don't think his response has been particularly outstanding in any form, but the British public seems to disagree.

The general consensus among most people seems to be that the government took the best possible measures to create a balance between protecting public health & the economy, which is fair.

And honestly, all of the political commentators knew that post-election Boris would be very different to Brexit/election Boris. It's just that a crisis has forced him into a very somber position which the politicos knew he was capable of operating. He's a good political operator. It's just also that he's a massive chancer, but that's a different argument.

[brucejoel99]

It's difficult to judge Boris too harshly when there's an example of a far worst response just across the sea in a country Britons are quite interested in, but I think over time the governments failings will cause his ratings to drop.

I mean I don't think anyone here expects this to end quickly right?

Stupid & wrong people do. Unfortunately, there's a lot of them.