UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[Alcibiades]

I mean, the UK is still bizarrely centralised for such a large and regionally diverse country, so I’m not sure even more (re-)centralisation is the way to go. Federalism doesn’t seem to work too badly for Germany or Switzerland. By the way, if you want to reduce the SNP’s influence in a legitimate, democratic manner, get rid of FPTP, which allows them to win 80% of Scottish Westminster seats on 45% of the vote.

[afleitch]

Cassius thinking devolution in Scotland was a devious Labour 'plot' and thinking the people of Scotland didn't have any f-cking agency in choosing it themselves.

[Blair]

I think the fact that the GLC was abolished because it 'got in the way' shows that we have a rather complex relationship with devolded power in this country.

[Cassius]

Cassius thinking devolution in Scotland was a devious Labour 'plot' and thinking the people of Scotland didn't have any f-cking agency in choosing it themselves.

Well, they wouldn’t have been able to exercise their ‘f-cking agency’ if Labour hadn’t given them a referendum, would they? I suppose if Labour hadn’t done so Salmond could’ve held up a post office in Edinburgh and inspired a national uprising in favour of devolution, but I suspect that would have been somewhat unlikely. Devolution was self-evidently a galaxy brained scheme to try and head off the electoral threat of the SNP, but it clearly wasn’t a very good idea for the Labour Party in hindsight was it? I mean for the record I’m all in favour of Scottish independence at this point, rather than persisting with this charade of the Scottish government demanding that the UK government treats Scotland as a independent country in all but name whilst Scotland continues to send 59 MP’s to Westminster.

[parochial boy]

Replace "Tory majority" and "Tory power" with "(Little) English Nationalism" In Cassius's typical blue-goggled #Analysis and you have the crux of the problem that Gordon Brown was hinting at the other day.

English nationalism is not whatever you don't like.

The paradox of English nationalism as ever, so much to be proud of, yet the expression of it never seems to get anywhere beyond the resentment of all things foreign.

Anyway, I would stick to what I have said before - the problems with devolution is just the same as the problem that already exists with UK local government; namely that quick fixes and badly thought through, vaguely populist-ish reforms have created an incomprehensible mess of different and uneven forms of subnational administration. Like, does anyone really know or care quite what the difference between a metropolitan region, local council, county council, unitary authority all is? At least in other pointlessely centralised western European nations, most people can identify what a commune, a department and a region all actually are.

[Zinneke]

I think the fact that the GLC was abolished because it 'got in the way' shows that we have a rather complex relationship with devolded power in this country.

And at any time Johnson can do the same to Scottish parliament, which is scandalous.

[Former President tack50]

I think the fact that the GLC was abolished because it 'got in the way' shows that we have a rather complex relationship with devolded power in this country.

And at any time Johnson can do the same to Scottish parliament, which is scandalous.

To be fair, 326 MPs could, at any time, if acting coordinatedly, run the UK like a dictatorship, so that doesn't surprise me too much.

Parliamentary supremacy and unwritten constitutions may have their advantages (see: Scotland vs Catalonia; although the UK's constitutional differences are only one of the many reasons) but I don't think it is worth it at the end of the day.

[EastAnglianLefty]

Labour has been moving to becoming more devolution-friendly since the 1960s.

Something else that is often missed.

True, but prior to the 1980’s it was an issue upon which there was considerable division (Neil Kinnock had some choice words to say about Welsh devolution and Welsh nationalists in 1979 for example), as was the case with Europe. It was only with the advent of Labour’s repeated electoral failures that firm support for both became the consensus opinion across the party (with a few exceptions).

That's one hell of an understatement. There's a reason the Welsh devolution referendum only barely succeeded.

[CumbrianLefty]

True, but the Welsh pro-devolution "swing" in the 1979-97 period was actually higher than Scotland's.

Even by the latter vote, anti-devolutionism *within* Welsh Labour was a clearly minority position.

Does it even meaningfully exist now?

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Cassius thinking devolution in Scotland was a devious Labour 'plot' and thinking the people of Scotland didn't have any f-cking agency in choosing it themselves.

The idea that devolution was invented by Labour to hobble Tory governments in Westminster is delusional, yeah. It happened because voters in Scotland demanded it.

In fact Labour was paranoid about Osborne's devolved metro mayors because they saw it as a plan to trap the party in isolated fiefdoms.

[CumbrianLefty]

And also saw it as a way of Gidiot giving Labour people "responsibility without power".

[Conservatopia]

And also saw it as a way of Gidiot giving Labour people "responsibility without power".

Ultimately the role has become one that is as powerful as one chooses to make it.
See the power of Street and Burnham compared to Bowles.

They're a stupid idea though because they're a half measure towards federalism.  Personally I think Canadian-style* federalism centred on the 12 Nations and Regions would be the best solution but I guess we each have our One Weird Trick to Solve the Problem.

* Why do all ideas come from former colonies?

[afleitch]

Cassius thinking devolution in Scotland was a devious Labour 'plot' and thinking the people of Scotland didn't have any f-cking agency in choosing it themselves.

Well, they wouldn’t have been able to exercise their ‘f-cking agency’ if Labour hadn’t given them a referendum, would they?

Yes. That would have been holding Scotland to hostage in refusing to let them vote in favour of something that Scotland wanted and even voted for in 1979 but didn't get because of a recking amendment given that 74% voted for devolution months after Labour won. And those who voted Labour, from Thurso to Truro in May 1997, knew that Labour proposed referenda on devolution. So they delivered.

[Battista Minola 1616]

I mean, the UK is still bizarrely centralised for such a large and regionally diverse country, so I’m not sure even more (re-)centralisation is the way to go. Federalism doesn’t seem to work too badly for Germany or Switzerland. By the way, if you want to reduce the SNP’s influence in a legitimate, democratic manner, get rid of FPTP, which allows them to win 80% of Scottish Westminster seats on 45% of the vote.

It's never a bad moment to do that.

Of course last time you tried to do that it was rejected everywhere outside of Inner London, Central Edinburgh, Central Glasgow and Oxbridge... though I am not sure whether AV would change the seat distribution in Scotland that much unless there's a heck of a Unionist tactical vote?
As a slight aside, is proportional representation perceived as, ahem, un-British in the UK?

[CumbrianLefty]

As a slight aside, is proportional representation perceived as, ahem, un-British in the UK?

There are certainly those who see things that way, yes.

Though tbh I wouldn't see the 2011 referendum result as definitive on this matter. At the end of the day the actual change on offer was one described previously as a "miserable little compromise" by a man who had by that time become one of the most electorally toxic front line politicians ever seen in the UK.

[Blair]

I mean, the UK is still bizarrely centralised for such a large and regionally diverse country, so I’m not sure even more (re-)centralisation is the way to go. Federalism doesn’t seem to work too badly for Germany or Switzerland. By the way, if you want to reduce the SNP’s influence in a legitimate, democratic manner, get rid of FPTP, which allows them to win 80% of Scottish Westminster seats on 45% of the vote.

It's never a bad moment to do that.

Of course last time you tried to do that it was rejected everywhere outside of Inner London, Central Edinburgh, Central Glasgow and Oxbridge... though I am not sure whether AV would change the seat distribution in Scotland that much unless there's a heck of a Unionist tactical vote?
As a slight aside, is proportional representation perceived as, ahem, un-British in the UK?

I think the results of not having PR or even AV have shaped our political culture in a number of important ways- mainly that the two large parties don't feel a need to do anything other than get ahead of the other (or in the Conservatives case get a large enough buffer between them & Labour+SNP+Lib Dem in recent years)

It's actually funny as the 2015 election was the one that was most dominated by the spectre of a non-majority government; the entire campaign was dominated by stories about A.) Will Labour sell out England to get SNP votes B.) What will the Lib Dems trade/cut from the main partiess... and the electorate answered by giving the Conservatives a majority.

I feel like it's a subject that most people don't care about- hence why the attack against AV in 2011 was 'why are we spending time on this when [issue you care about] needs to be fixed'. I believe there was a poster with a soldier saying he needs body armour not an AV vote... if you kept the constituency link (something that if fetished by MPs & politicians but honestly how many normal people know their MP?) I think the system could be changed without any hassle.

[Battista Minola 1616]

I mean, the UK is still bizarrely centralised for such a large and regionally diverse country, so I’m not sure even more (re-)centralisation is the way to go. Federalism doesn’t seem to work too badly for Germany or Switzerland. By the way, if you want to reduce the SNP’s influence in a legitimate, democratic manner, get rid of FPTP, which allows them to win 80% of Scottish Westminster seats on 45% of the vote.

It's never a bad moment to do that.

Of course last time you tried to do that it was rejected everywhere outside of Inner London, Central Edinburgh, Central Glasgow and Oxbridge... though I am not sure whether AV would change the seat distribution in Scotland that much unless there's a heck of a Unionist tactical vote?
As a slight aside, is proportional representation perceived as, ahem, un-British in the UK?

I think the results of not having PR or even AV have shaped our political culture in a number of important ways- mainly that the two large parties don't feel a need to do anything other than get ahead of the other (or in the Conservatives case get a large enough buffer between them & Labour+SNP+Lib Dem in recent years)

It's actually funny as the 2015 election was the one that was most dominated by the spectre of a non-majority government; the entire campaign was dominated by stories about A.) Will Labour sell out England to get SNP votes B.) What will the Lib Dems trade/cut from the main partiess... and the electorate answered by giving the Conservatives a majority.

I feel like it's a subject that most people don't care about- hence why the attack against AV in 2011 was 'why are we spending time on this when [issue you care about] needs to be fixed'. I believe there was a poster with a soldier saying he needs body armour not an AV vote... if you kept the constituency link (something that if fetished by MPs & politicians but honestly how many normal people know their MP?) I think the system could be changed without any hassle.

Something like the New Zealand system? That would be great.
And incidentally New Zealand had FPTP too before switching to MMP (of course it had, as a good Westminster system nation).

[Alcibiades]

I mean, the UK is still bizarrely centralised for such a large and regionally diverse country, so I’m not sure even more (re-)centralisation is the way to go. Federalism doesn’t seem to work too badly for Germany or Switzerland. By the way, if you want to reduce the SNP’s influence in a legitimate, democratic manner, get rid of FPTP, which allows them to win 80% of Scottish Westminster seats on 45% of the vote.

It's never a bad moment to do that.

Of course last time you tried to do that it was rejected everywhere outside of Inner London, Central Edinburgh, Central Glasgow and Oxbridge... though I am not sure whether AV would change the seat distribution in Scotland that much unless there's a heck of a Unionist tactical vote?
As a slight aside, is proportional representation perceived as, ahem, un-British in the UK?

I think someone ran the number and concluded that AV would have delivered an even less proportional result in one of the recent elections, although I think it is marginally more democratic than FPTP because each constituency MP would have to get majority support. I don’t think most people have strong feelings either way on PR, but I think it would get rejected in a referendum because most people would stick with the devil they know. The AV proposal was defeated so heavily because it was turned into a referendum on the deeply unpopular Nick Clegg.

[Battista Minola 1616]

I mean, the UK is still bizarrely centralised for such a large and regionally diverse country, so I’m not sure even more (re-)centralisation is the way to go. Federalism doesn’t seem to work too badly for Germany or Switzerland. By the way, if you want to reduce the SNP’s influence in a legitimate, democratic manner, get rid of FPTP, which allows them to win 80% of Scottish Westminster seats on 45% of the vote.

It's never a bad moment to do that.

Of course last time you tried to do that it was rejected everywhere outside of Inner London, Central Edinburgh, Central Glasgow and Oxbridge... though I am not sure whether AV would change the seat distribution in Scotland that much unless there's a heck of a Unionist tactical vote?
As a slight aside, is proportional representation perceived as, ahem, un-British in the UK?

I think someone ran the number and concluded that AV would have delivered an even less proportional result in one of the recent elections, although I think it is marginally more democratic than FPTP because each constituency MP would have to get majority support. I don’t think most people have strong feelings either way on PR, but I think it would get rejected in a referendum because most people would stick with the devil they know. The AV proposal was defeated so heavily because it was turned into a referendum on the deeply unpopular Nick Clegg.

I am aware of that. Not unusual for these things to turn into a referendum on [insert unpopular politician here], like our 2016 Constitutional referendum which failed mostly because people wanted to stick a middle finger to Renzi.
I find the debacle that happened to the Lib Dems in that period quite tragicomic. It halved its support in the polls in, like, eight months?

[Alcibiades]

I mean, the UK is still bizarrely centralised for such a large and regionally diverse country, so I’m not sure even more (re-)centralisation is the way to go. Federalism doesn’t seem to work too badly for Germany or Switzerland. By the way, if you want to reduce the SNP’s influence in a legitimate, democratic manner, get rid of FPTP, which allows them to win 80% of Scottish Westminster seats on 45% of the vote.

It's never a bad moment to do that.

Of course last time you tried to do that it was rejected everywhere outside of Inner London, Central Edinburgh, Central Glasgow and Oxbridge... though I am not sure whether AV would change the seat distribution in Scotland that much unless there's a heck of a Unionist tactical vote?
As a slight aside, is proportional representation perceived as, ahem, un-British in the UK?

I think someone ran the number and concluded that AV would have delivered an even less proportional result in one of the recent elections, although I think it is marginally more democratic than FPTP because each constituency MP would have to get majority support. I don’t think most people have strong feelings either way on PR, but I think it would get rejected in a referendum because most people would stick with the devil they know. The AV proposal was defeated so heavily because it was turned into a referendum on the deeply unpopular Nick Clegg.

I am aware of that. Not unusual for these things to turn into a referendum on [insert unpopular politician here], like our 2016 Constitutional referendum which failed mostly because people wanted to stick a middle finger to Renzi.
I find the debacle that happened to the Lib Dems in that period quite tragicomic. It halved its support in the polls in, like, eight months?

It is a common phenomenon around the world that junior coalition partners are punished at the next election, but the Lib Dems’ case was particularly brutal.

I know that this is a very unpopular stance to take these days, but I am a bit of a Clegg apologist. While I think the coalition negotiations could have been handled better, in particular pushing harder for constitutional reform, in reality, and without hindsight, the results of the 2010 election left him with no real choice but to enter coalition with the Tories (and one can also argue that it is the duty of a political party to their voters to try to the best of their ability to implement their manifesto, and thus to enter government if they can). While the tuition fees thing was a complete fiasco, the Lib Dems did do a lot of important and under-appreciated work to curb the worst excesses of Tory austerity. In this respect, it is a tragic tale.

[cp]

I mean, the UK is still bizarrely centralised for such a large and regionally diverse country, so I’m not sure even more (re-)centralisation is the way to go. Federalism doesn’t seem to work too badly for Germany or Switzerland. By the way, if you want to reduce the SNP’s influence in a legitimate, democratic manner, get rid of FPTP, which allows them to win 80% of Scottish Westminster seats on 45% of the vote.

It's never a bad moment to do that.

Of course last time you tried to do that it was rejected everywhere outside of Inner London, Central Edinburgh, Central Glasgow and Oxbridge... though I am not sure whether AV would change the seat distribution in Scotland that much unless there's a heck of a Unionist tactical vote?
As a slight aside, is proportional representation perceived as, ahem, un-British in the UK?

I think someone ran the number and concluded that AV would have delivered an even less proportional result in one of the recent elections, although I think it is marginally more democratic than FPTP because each constituency MP would have to get majority support. I don’t think most people have strong feelings either way on PR, but I think it would get rejected in a referendum because most people would stick with the devil they know. The AV proposal was defeated so heavily because it was turned into a referendum on the deeply unpopular Nick Clegg.

I am aware of that. Not unusual for these things to turn into a referendum on [insert unpopular politician here], like our 2016 Constitutional referendum which failed mostly because people wanted to stick a middle finger to Renzi.
I find the debacle that happened to the Lib Dems in that period quite tragicomic. It halved its support in the polls in, like, eight months?

It is a common phenomenon around the world that junior coalition partners are punished at the next election, but the Lib Dems’ case was particularly brutal.

I know that this is a very unpopular stance to take these days, but I am a bit of a Clegg apologist. While I think the coalition negotiations could have been handled better, in particular pushing harder for constitutional reform, in reality, and without hindsight, the results of the 2010 election left him with no real choice but to enter coalition with the Tories (and one can also argue that it is the duty of a political party to their voters to try to the best of their ability to implement their manifesto, and thus to enter government if they can). While the tuition fees thing was a complete fiasco, the Lib Dems did do a lot of important and under-appreciated work to curb the worst excesses of Tory austerity. In this respect, it is a tragic tale.

Of course the Lib Dems had a choice. They could have gone into a confidence and supply agreement or some other informal arrangement where they don't allow the parliament to dissolve (this is pre-FTPA days) but still prevent the Tories from enacting the worst of their ideas.*

I used to be sympathetic to the argument that the Lib Dems did the best they could with a weak hand, but the effectiveness of the DUP in hamstringing the Tories' Brexit 'plans' (lol) from 2017-2019 shows that an even smaller caucus could be even more impactful when played right. Clegg lacked the political nous and sheer ruthlessness Foster demonstrated. Allowing the AV referendum to get watered down, undercut by the Tory part of the coalition, and scheduled when it was is a case in point.

*As a side note, Clegg's, and the LD's more generally, conceit of getting into government to 'deliver on the manifesto' or curb the worst of Tory excesses looks in retrospect more and more a cover for wanting access to the trappings of office and patronage/sinecures.

[Alcibiades]

I mean, the UK is still bizarrely centralised for such a large and regionally diverse country, so I’m not sure even more (re-)centralisation is the way to go. Federalism doesn’t seem to work too badly for Germany or Switzerland. By the way, if you want to reduce the SNP’s influence in a legitimate, democratic manner, get rid of FPTP, which allows them to win 80% of Scottish Westminster seats on 45% of the vote.

It's never a bad moment to do that.

Of course last time you tried to do that it was rejected everywhere outside of Inner London, Central Edinburgh, Central Glasgow and Oxbridge... though I am not sure whether AV would change the seat distribution in Scotland that much unless there's a heck of a Unionist tactical vote?
As a slight aside, is proportional representation perceived as, ahem, un-British in the UK?

I think someone ran the number and concluded that AV would have delivered an even less proportional result in one of the recent elections, although I think it is marginally more democratic than FPTP because each constituency MP would have to get majority support. I don’t think most people have strong feelings either way on PR, but I think it would get rejected in a referendum because most people would stick with the devil they know. The AV proposal was defeated so heavily because it was turned into a referendum on the deeply unpopular Nick Clegg.

I am aware of that. Not unusual for these things to turn into a referendum on [insert unpopular politician here], like our 2016 Constitutional referendum which failed mostly because people wanted to stick a middle finger to Renzi.
I find the debacle that happened to the Lib Dems in that period quite tragicomic. It halved its support in the polls in, like, eight months?

It is a common phenomenon around the world that junior coalition partners are punished at the next election, but the Lib Dems’ case was particularly brutal.

I know that this is a very unpopular stance to take these days, but I am a bit of a Clegg apologist. While I think the coalition negotiations could have been handled better, in particular pushing harder for constitutional reform, in reality, and without hindsight, the results of the 2010 election left him with no real choice but to enter coalition with the Tories (and one can also argue that it is the duty of a political party to their voters to try to the best of their ability to implement their manifesto, and thus to enter government if they can). While the tuition fees thing was a complete fiasco, the Lib Dems did do a lot of important and under-appreciated work to curb the worst excesses of Tory austerity. In this respect, it is a tragic tale.

Of course the Lib Dems had a choice. They could have gone into a confidence and supply agreement or some other informal arrangement where they don't allow the parliament to dissolve (this is pre-FTPA days) but still prevent the Tories from enacting the worst of their ideas.*

I used to be sympathetic to the argument that the Lib Dems did the best they could with a weak hand, but the effectiveness of the DUP in hamstringing the Tories' Brexit 'plans' (lol) from 2017-2019 shows that an even smaller caucus could be even more impactful when played right. Clegg lacked the political nous and sheer ruthlessness Foster demonstrated. Allowing the AV referendum to get watered down, undercut by the Tory part of the coalition, and scheduled when it was is a case in point.

*As a side note, Clegg's, and the LD's more generally, conceit of getting into government to 'deliver on the manifesto' or curb the worst of Tory excesses looks in retrospect more and more a cover for wanting access to the trappings of office and patronage/sinecures.

I didn’t mean to say that Clegg’s political instincts were underrated, but rather that I don’t agree with the notion that he was a covert ‘Yellow Tory’ eager to enact sweeping austerity. As for your last point, well yes, but I don’t really see how you can separate those two points as a motive for entering government.

[rc18]

I mean, the UK is still bizarrely centralised for such a large and regionally diverse country, so I’m not sure even more (re-)centralisation is the way to go. Federalism doesn’t seem to work too badly for Germany or Switzerland. By the way, if you want to reduce the SNP’s influence in a legitimate, democratic manner, get rid of FPTP, which allows them to win 80% of Scottish Westminster seats on 45% of the vote.

It's never a bad moment to do that.

Of course last time you tried to do that it was rejected everywhere outside of Inner London, Central Edinburgh, Central Glasgow and Oxbridge... though I am not sure whether AV would change the seat distribution in Scotland that much unless there's a heck of a Unionist tactical vote?
As a slight aside, is proportional representation perceived as, ahem, un-British in the UK?

FPTP has of course contributed to the UK having relatively stable government (last few years excepted) for a long time. Our primary reference point for alternative systems are those on the continent; Outside perhaps committed europhiles or minor parties (effectively the same thing), it's not like there's a general feeling publicly their systems are any better. For many of us we're quite happy with the voting system (the politicians themselves is another matter), or at least apathetic to changing it.

[Pericles]

It took almost a perfect storm for New Zealand to vote for MMP. We had two elections where the popular vote loser won a majority, then two consecutive governments that pushed unpopular agendas that went massively against their promises (and could do so because they had a majority). In a lucky accident the referendum was actually offered and held at the exact right time to capitalize on the backlash to both major parties, and still MMP only got 54%. I do think the UK should have MMP, but without the electoral system being as obviously broken (and normal people won't see hung parliament as such a good thing), the fear of change will likely prevail and FPP would win (though not by as much as in the AV referendum).

[Blair]

There hasn't been much discussion about this; I'm not that clued up on the situation but it did seem to be the first time in a while where the Government, Labour, the DUP and the Irish Government all seemed in agreement that the EU had played it's hand extremely poorly with it's threat to basically impose controls on the Irish border.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-30/faced-with-a-vaccine-emergency-the-eu-made-an-enemy-of-everyone

As an FYI it's interesting how the brexit lense still clouds people's thoughts; I've seen a lot of FBPE types saying this is all completely the fault of Boris Johnson & that the EU have every right to do this...