UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero
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  UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero
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Author Topic: UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero  (Read 283717 times)
MABA 2020
MakeAmericaBritishAgain
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« Reply #700 on: June 28, 2020, 07:33:21 AM »

Starmer has plenty of time to change peoples perception of the party, it's not like there's going to be an election anytime soon. He's made good progress in three months and he's got another four years to finish the job.
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DaWN
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« Reply #701 on: June 28, 2020, 09:46:32 AM »

All true, and Starmer getting healthy ratings is unequivocally good - but at some point they need to translate into clear Labour VI leads.

Praise from people who still won't vote Labour will only get you so far.

This is all true, but what is equally true is that to convert that praise into VI, Labour will have to do convince us it is no longer the party it was under Corbyn. It is likely that to achieve that it will have to do some things you don't like. Pandering to the left is not going to win our votes.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #702 on: June 28, 2020, 11:00:19 AM »

I would say there has already been a bit of that. But equally, what people like you don't like to admit is that Corbyn's actual *policy* programme was *mostly* popular.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #703 on: June 28, 2020, 11:02:36 AM »

I would say there has already been a bit of that. But equally, what people like you don't like to admit is that Corbyn's actual *policy* programme was *mostly* popular.

Many individual elements were, but the whole package wasn't; it was seen as just throwing goodies at the electorate and not credible in the whole.

Ultimately the person and the policy couldn't be divorced.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #704 on: June 28, 2020, 11:04:34 AM »

I would say there has already been a bit of that. But equally, what people like you don't like to admit is that Corbyn's actual *policy* programme was *mostly* popular.

Many individual elements were, but the whole package wasn't; it was seen as just throwing goodies at the electorate and not credible in the whole.

Ultimately the person and the policy couldn't be divorced.

As a critique of the 2019 manifesto that has *some* force - 2017's, not so much.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #705 on: June 28, 2020, 11:07:31 AM »

2017 was because May was useless and the antisemitism thing hadn't fully developed yet.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #706 on: June 28, 2020, 11:15:29 AM »

2017 was because May was useless and the antisemitism thing hadn't fully developed yet.

May's hopelessness is highly overstated save for the fiasco over the "dementia tax" which might have caused some older Tory voters to stay at home - even so she scored only slightly more than 1% less than Johnson did. AS became a real thing in Labour in 2016 (Livingstone et al) and attempts were made to turn it against the party the following year - they largely failed, as did other stratagems, because the Labour campaign then was *actually quite good*.

People who refuse to admit that Corbyn and his camp followers ever did anything wrong are certainly annoying, but those who decline to give any credit for anything in his time aren't much better.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #707 on: June 28, 2020, 11:24:38 AM »

He massively boosted Labour membership. That's something.

But you have to look at the state of the party when he started and compare it to how he left it. It seems obvious to me that he was an abject failure as leader.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #708 on: June 28, 2020, 11:31:04 AM »

Well, the wipeout in Scotland (which made winning a Labour majority so much harder) predated him. As did the rise of UKIP that presaged the referendum result and all that has flowed from that.

But above all, Corbyn was overall a symptom rather than a cause.
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EastAnglianLefty
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« Reply #709 on: June 28, 2020, 11:48:38 AM »

I would say there has already been a bit of that. But equally, what people like you don't like to admit is that Corbyn's actual *policy* programme was *mostly* popular.

Isn't this rather the point? As yet (some slightly histrionic wailing from the usual quarters notwithstanding) there's no sign of any significant change to the substantive programme. On the other hand, a number of symbolic actions have been taken to get rid of people and attitudes who meant that the party was unpopular, even if it's programme wasn't.

A trollish but not entirely untrue take would be that the most likely route to putting Corbynism into action starts off with firing all the Corbynite Cabinet ministers...
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thumb21
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« Reply #710 on: June 28, 2020, 12:22:56 PM »

This is the first time Labour has led or been close in preferred PM polls since it lost power in 2010 with the exception of a few polls at the height of Corbyn's popularity in 2017 and the lowest point of Theresa May's popularity in 2019 - which I think shows that the recent closing of the voting intention polls is meaningful.

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🦀🎂🦀🎂
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« Reply #711 on: June 28, 2020, 12:45:00 PM »

One of the things I never understand about pundit's beliefs around Corbynism is that he was a "populist", normally so they could make various half-baked comparisons with various other international politicians. Corbyn's lifelong status as a gadfly made him one of the least populist leaders in British history, with various planks that individually polled well rubbing shoulders with esoteric concerns that the public at large don't care about and certain issues that fly in the face of public support. This is not necessarily a bad thing or a good thing (it's one of the chief hypocrisies of partisanship that when my guy supports a policy disliked by the masses it is a sign of his noble character and attachment to principles, while if your guy endorses a hated plank he is an arrogant SOB), but the idea that Corbyn can boiled down to "nationalized trains and more money for NHS" is dishonest as either an attack or a defence.
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Pericles
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« Reply #712 on: June 28, 2020, 05:26:02 PM »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/28/covid-19-risk-of-death-in-uk-care-homes-13-times-higher-than-in-germany

Apparently 5.3% of care home residents may have died of coronavirus (so far). Yikes. The government has really failed abysmally here.
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NewYorkExpress
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« Reply #713 on: June 28, 2020, 11:54:24 PM »

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/28/britain-sedwill-boris-johnson-343384

Quote
Mark Sedwill, the most senior official in Boris Johnson's government, will stand down in September, Downing Street confirmed.

Sedwill will leave his posts as Cabinet secretary, head of the U.K. civil service and national security adviser.



His departure comes after months of speculation about his position, amid reports that he has clashed with Johnson's Downing Street team. It was announced 24 hours after Cabinet Office Minister Michael Gove gave a speech setting out the government's plans for major reforms of the civil service, while criticizing many aspects of the way Whitehall operates.


The U.K.'s chief Brexit negotiator and close Johnson ally, David Frost, will take over as national security adviser and the government will shortly launch the search for Sedwill's successor as cabinet secretary and head of the civil service.
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brucejoel99
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« Reply #714 on: June 29, 2020, 12:05:04 AM »


Prime Minister Cummings' shake-up continues, purging & fashioning the Civil Service in his own image. What a spineless joke BoJo is.
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Blair
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« Reply #715 on: June 29, 2020, 02:21:36 AM »
« Edited: June 29, 2020, 03:49:12 AM by Blair »

The one thing that is forgotten is that in 2019 Labour were attacked a lot more strongly over their economic argument; specifically issues around tax.

To take one example in both 2017 & 2019 Labour had a very sensible policy to increase the tax you pay on dividends (its taxed at a historically lower rate & some people go out of their way to earn via this way). This was done to allow Labour to claim we wouldn't increase income tax while still raising £- but in 2019 we were attacked ruthlessly for raising taxes on grannies & on small businesses. I know from the campaign that this had cut through.

The economic argument was a lot more botched in 2019 but we also faced a much sharper conservative attack machine; the thing I think that is laregly forgotten about 2017 is that the Tories were either AWOL or chasing other weaker targets (a lot more money was spend in 2017 on IRA ads than 2019)

I think it's perfectly fair to say that the 2017 manifesto had popular policies. Although I'm questionable of the instinctive use of polling to back this up; to take an example almost all the political tories in my family (retired, home owning brexiteers etc) believe the energy companies should be broken up; they agree with that but they don't agree with Labours method of fixing it (rasising & spending £££)

And of course you have the issue of trust & competence; people either thought we would were lying about doing it or they thought we were too incompetent to carry it out. It's also falling into the same trap of Labour in the 1980s & the Tories in the 2000s where both kept saying 'but the policies are popular' without noticing just how screwed the brand is.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #716 on: June 29, 2020, 06:27:00 AM »

(a lot more money was spend in 2017 on IRA ads than 2019)

Even so, anecdotal accounts suggest that "Corbyn IRA bad" stuff was heard much more on the fabled doorstep - especially from Labour deserters in "red wall" areas - last year.
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Blair
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« Reply #717 on: June 29, 2020, 06:41:09 AM »

(a lot more money was spend in 2017 on IRA ads than 2019)

Even so, anecdotal accounts suggest that "Corbyn IRA bad" stuff was heard much more on the fabled doorstep - especially from Labour deserters in "red wall" areas - last year.

Yes & something that even Long-Bailey hinted at was the need for the party to absolutely banish this image. I think the issue cut through with a very specific type of voter; while the tories hoped it would have a much bigger national effect.

It's interesting that the person charged with repairing this damage is Conor McGinn; whose father is a Sinn Fein councillor but who is firmly from the old right of the party.
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Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan
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« Reply #718 on: June 29, 2020, 09:42:59 AM »

Sorry for the offtop, but as far as I know there are few Labour Party members - do you know maybe how much Young Labour pays for membership in International Union of Socialist Youth and Young European Socialists?
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #719 on: June 29, 2020, 02:03:46 PM »
« Edited: June 29, 2020, 02:08:58 PM by Statilius the Epicurean »

"Defund the police" discourse has arrived here and it's even (significantly) dumber than in the United States. Literally what the hell is wrong with Labour left twitter? I think my brain is breaking from socialists arguing that austerity is good now.



And yes I know that when you point this out the advocates say "well we actually mean increasing funding for social services". Then don't ing say defund the police then!! How hard is it?!
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brucejoel99
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« Reply #720 on: June 29, 2020, 02:18:00 PM »
« Edited: June 29, 2020, 04:38:45 PM by brucejoel99 »

"Defund the police" discourse has arrived here and it's even (significantly) dumber than in the United States. Literally what the hell is wrong with Labour left twitter? I think my brain is breaking from socialists arguing that austerity is good now.

https://twitter.com/BBCBreakfast/status/1277556165040148485?s=20

And yes I know that when you point this out the advocates say "well we actually mean increasing funding for social services". Then don't ing say defund the police then!! How hard is it?!

Defund the police makes sense in an American context, where our police forces are equipped like paramilitaries. Doesn't make sense in Britain, though, since the police there are already excellent at deescalation & community policing anyway.

This is half of the problem with global movements. Are there issues with the police & policing in Britain? Yes, of course. But it's not the same as our issues here in the U.S. I agree with the ideas & concepts behind 'Defund the Police' (i.e. increasing funding for social services) as a goal, but in this context, Britain just isn't the U.S.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #721 on: June 29, 2020, 02:58:51 PM »

Police in the UK are excellent at deescalation because they don't have firearms. Neither do most of the criminals they face.
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Blair
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« Reply #722 on: June 29, 2020, 03:17:44 PM »

That clip for me is a reminder that most people do not know that Keir Starmer was the director of public prosecutions (and most people don't know what that role is) & the 2-3 years of being leader of the opposition is about defining & setting a public perception.

From a policy viewpoint it's a headbanging quality stupidity  to even go near that policy- in that it distracts from a very valid argument that the police have to do too much because of austerity. Almost everyone in the Labour Party agrees that factors like Housing, Mental Health care, work security & so forth impact crime rates; but we also know that communities have suffered from police cuts & police cuts have made it harder to investigate hate crime, sexual assaults & other serious crimes.

There's certainly a whole host of organisational reform issues around the police & race (use of Section 60 powers to stop & search for one) but I don't see how defunding them isn't just a blunt & crude tool.

Besides Labours most successful campaign & messages are around police cuts. I'm not even here to do my 'oh this is about distancing from Corbyn' because this is the exact same stance we had in 2019 & 2017; it's hilarous how much praise & sh**t Starmer gets for saying the exact same thing as Jeremy but just with a different tone.
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Blair
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« Reply #723 on: June 29, 2020, 03:20:18 PM »

I do wonder if myself & the Labour Party discourse/forever war would benefit from no twitter. I don't even use my account anymore- but even searching just brings up people like myself (who've had the exact same opinion on every political issue since 2016!)
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EastAnglianLefty
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« Reply #724 on: June 29, 2020, 04:00:36 PM »

It has been pointed out that it leads to an increased focus on aesthetics, which is not a great thing to have when so much of our public discourse was stunningly vapid to begin with.
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