UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[brucejoel99]

In true british fashion this whole fiasco has emerged because Gordon Brown had a feud with Harriet Harman & didn't want to make her deputy prime minister- and then wanted to make Mandelson deputy prime minister without the title so made him 'First Secretary of State'

I'm not a constitional historian/scholar or expert but we really should have some sort of codified succession; I never understand why the position of Deputy Prime Minister was not made virtually obligtatory & beefed up with the explicit understanding that they can take over the reins.

The latest rumour is that the Cabinet Office has a 'document' which deals with the national security implications of a succession or lack of in some sort of similar event; of course most of these probably date from the Cold War or from post 9/11 plans.

Good points. The positions of Deputy Prime Minister and/or¹ First Secretary of State are legally nothing more than honorary titles, denoting honorary precedence over other cabinet members. The UK clearly needs a proper legislation to have someone who's clearly second in the chain of command and who can fully take over in the time of emergency. Right now all you have is the PM saying "this guy will deputize for me", which is both vague and lacking a firm legal basis.

I mean, let's imagine the Prime Minister died and before the cabinet agrees on an interim appointment to take over until a leadership election something big happens that would require the Prime Minister to make an instant decision. Who's going to make that decision? The cabinet at large or will they go to the Queen and ask her to do it in a violation of the constitutional convention?

¹ It becomes even "funnier" when you have two diffrent people serving as Deputy PM and First Secretary at the same time.

I think Al might have touched on it before but when we last had it when Macmillian's health was in an awful state- the Chief Whip (Ted Heath) asked cabinet members and backbenchers who should be leader although this was before the tories had a formal provision for electing a leader.

It's all rather chaotic; to be quite morbid if something had happened to Brown between 2007-2008 we would have had Harriet Harman as the acting leader of the Labour Party, which by rights would make her the de-facto choice as Prime Minister as the leader of the majority party; but of course the cabinet could have easily gone for Straw, Miliband or Alan Johnson.

On the whole it has generally worked previously when the DPM or first secretary of state is someone rather umabitouous, at the end of their career and without extreme views (catergories that Hague, Lidington, Green and even by the end Mandelson fell into)

That's why the Raab choice is a bit bizarre; but looking at the cabinet I can't see who else there is!

Actually, when Labour is in government & the party leader is PM & the leader, for whatever reason, becomes permanently unavailable, then the party rules dictate that the Cabinet shall appoint one of its members to serve as leader "in consultation with the NEC" until a leadership election can be held, so it'd still be chaotic, but Harman wouldn't have been able to succeed to the acting leadership without the Cabinet consenting to it.

[John Dule]

Johnson went around deliberately shaking the hands of Coronavirus patients. How likely do you guys think it is that he gave himself the virus on purpose in order to gain publicity/sympathy and serve as a unifying national figure? It seems like the sort of thing he'd do; Boris loves to take risks and it might all play to his favor.

[brucejoel99]

Johnson went around deliberately shaking the hands of Coronavirus patients. How likely do you guys think it is that he gave himself the virus on purpose in order to gain publicity/sympathy and serve as a unifying national figure? It seems like the sort of thing he'd do; Boris loves to take risks and it might all play to his favor.

He's certainly a massive chancer, I'll give you that, but I can't imagine he's stupid enough to literally risk his life for a bump in the polls.

[CumbrianLefty]

Its the sort of galaxy brained thing you can imagine Cummings suggesting, though.

[EastAnglianLefty]

Most of the press are currently talking about the lockdown having to continue for weeks longer, with a sense of evident disappointment about this. Meanwhile, the Welsh government have just extended the lockdown and made clear they see no sign of it being possible to end it any time soon, because they've actually been paying attention.

One of the issues is that before Johnson got hospitalised, a lot of journalists in the general Telegraph/Spectator orbit were still downplaying the virus (and if he wasn't PM, it's fairly clear Johnson would have been with them) and they're still more sceptical about the lockdown than most, although another issue is that, as Stephen Bush puts it:

https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/1248165707700940806

[CumbrianLefty]

The strain of "libertarian" thinking that thinks this is just an excuse (or even an outright invention) to impose "socialist" measures has never really gone away on either side of the Atlantic.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Johnson went around deliberately shaking the hands of Coronavirus patients. How likely do you guys think it is that he gave himself the virus on purpose in order to gain publicity/sympathy and serve as a unifying national figure? It seems like the sort of thing he'd do; Boris loves to take risks and it might all play to his favor.

Completely impossible: Johnson spent the first ten days of his illness, it appears, insisting that it was no big deal, even when he started to struggle to breathe. Staff had prepared a bed for him at St Thomas's and were trying to persuade him to go there a week ago, but he refused until the weekend. There's no crazed gambit here, just a man who refused to take a potentially dangerous illness seriously because he believes that Illness Is For Other People.

As it is, he's now spent a significant amount of time in intensive care. Assuming that he pulls through, we cannot even be sure that he will ever be well enough to fully return to front-line politics.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

In true british fashion this whole fiasco has emerged because Gordon Brown had a feud with Harriet Harman & didn't want to make her deputy prime minister- and then wanted to make Mandelson deputy prime minister without the title so made him 'First Secretary of State'

I'm not a constitional historian/scholar or expert but we really should have some sort of codified succession; I never understand why the position of Deputy Prime Minister was not made virtually obligtatory & beefed up with the explicit understanding that they can take over the reins.

The latest rumour is that the Cabinet Office has a 'document' which deals with the national security implications of a succession or lack of in some sort of similar event; of course most of these probably date from the Cold War or from post 9/11 plans.

Good points. The positions of Deputy Prime Minister and/or¹ First Secretary of State are legally nothing more than honorary titles, denoting honorary precedence over other cabinet members. The UK clearly needs a proper legislation to have someone who's clearly second in the chain of command and who can fully take over in the time of emergency. Right now all you have is the PM saying "this guy will deputize for me", which is both vague and lacking a firm legal basis.

I mean, let's imagine the Prime Minister died and before the cabinet agrees on an interim appointment to take over until a leadership election something big happens that would require the Prime Minister to make an instant decision. Who's going to make that decision? The cabinet at large or will they go to the Queen and ask her to do it in a violation of the constitutional convention?

¹ It becomes even "funnier" when you have two diffrent people serving as Deputy PM and First Secretary at the same time.

I think Al might have touched on it before but when we last had it when Macmillian's health was in an awful state- the Chief Whip (Ted Heath) asked cabinet members and backbenchers who should be leader although this was before the tories had a formal provision for electing a leader.

Yes, looking for Macmillan's successor was quite a messy business.

I believe Rab Butler did effectively deputize for Eden, who was ill and out of country, in the late 1954, and did pretty a good job in alienating the party, which then played a big role in him being passed over for Eden's successor.

[CumbrianLefty]

Johnson went around deliberately shaking the hands of Coronavirus patients. How likely do you guys think it is that he gave himself the virus on purpose in order to gain publicity/sympathy and serve as a unifying national figure? It seems like the sort of thing he'd do; Boris loves to take risks and it might all play to his favor.

Completely impossible: Johnson spent the first ten days of his illness, it appears, insisting that it was no big deal, even when he started to struggle to breathe. Staff had prepared a bed for him at St Thomas's and were trying to persuade him to go there a week ago, but he refused until the weekend. There's no crazed gambit here, just a man who refused to take a potentially dangerous illness seriously because he believes that Illness Is For Other People.

As it is, he's now spent a significant amount of time in intensive care. Assuming that he pulls through, we cannot even be sure that he will ever be well enough to fully return to front-line politics.

A very, very revealing quote about him emerged after he entered hospital - the "intolerant of illness" one. Nearly all of us will have encountered the type in our working lives especially.

[Lechasseur]

Boris Johnson is out of intensive care and has been transferred to a different service within the hospital for monitoring

[brucejoel99]

Boris Johnson is out of intensive care and has been transferred to a different service within the hospital for monitoring

Fantastic news! Now rest, you f**ker, & get yourself fully fit so we can criticize you without any feelings of guilt.

[CumbrianLefty]

Maybe we will learn at some point how close he actually came to dying, might not be soon though.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Maybe we will learn at some point how close he actually came to dying, might not be soon though.

Reminds me of Nixon with phlebitis. The White House claimed it was no big deal, but it was in truth it really was big deal.

[CumbrianLefty]

Anyway, our fearless FREE PRESS really excelling themselves right now.

[afleitch]

Anyway, for fun the first post leadership poll from Opinium have the Tories on 55% to 29% for Labour.

[brucejoel99]

Anyway, for fun the first post leadership poll from Opinium have the Tories on 55% to 29% for Labour.

Broadly matches up with the other polls that the Tories are doing a decent job of managing the crisis & the public is rallying around them.

[CumbrianLefty]

The first post-Starmer poll was actually by BMG, showing the Tories ahead by a more modest 46-29 and the new Labour leader with significantly positive personal ratings (though also with half saying "don't know")

[Antonio the Sixth]

Does it matter in the slightest what the polls are saying now?

[CumbrianLefty]

Arguably not very much.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Does it matter in the slightest what the polls are saying now?

No. There is functionally no politics at present.

[afleitch]

Does it matter in the slightest what the polls are saying now?

No. There is functionally no politics at present.

Though it is interesting to compare the reactions of different countries to their respective leaders at a time of crisis.

[DaWN]

Does it matter in the slightest what the polls are saying now?

No but that hasn't stopped most online Conservatives wetting themselves with glee over them

[Lechasseur]

Boris Johnson is now out of the hospital

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-52262012

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Does it matter in the slightest what the polls are saying now?

No. There is functionally no politics at present.

Though it is interesting to compare the reactions of different countries to their respective leaders at a time of crisis.

Mostly a picture of much as muchness, but there are a few... exceptions.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Boris Johnson is now out of the hospital

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-52262012

I presume that they've decided that it's easier to turn a few rooms at Chequers into a little recovery ward for him than keep him in St Thomas'.