UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[Filuwaúrdjan]

So, a brief summary of the constitutional situation.

Raab appears to be have been designated as an emergency stand-in (without the formal title of Deputy PM) but this has no constitutional significance. Neither does the Deputy PM title. If Johnson were to die or be rendered so ill that it is not realistic for him to remain in post, then it is likely that there would be an emergency meeting of the Cabinet and quite probably a vote, or at least an earnest discussion with the same function. The 'winner' would then be nominated to the Queen and there would be some form of virtual kissing of hands.* There is no such thing as an interim PM under British constitutional law; the 'winner' would be PM. At some point there would then be a Conservative leadership election, but it would not be possible to hold one for a while. The 'interim' PM would then resign and be replaced by the winner of the leadership poll, unless that person was the same person.

_{*They do not, actually, kiss the hand of the sovereign anyway. It's just a thing that's said.}

[brucejoel99]

So, a brief summary of the constitutional situation.

Raab appears to be have been designated as an emergency stand-in (without the formal title of Deputy PM) but this has no constitutional significance. Neither does the Deputy PM title. If Johnson were to die or be rendered so ill that it is not realistic for him to remain in post, then it is likely that there would be an emergency meeting of the Cabinet and quite probably a vote, or at least an earnest discussion with the same function. The 'winner' would then be nominated to the Queen and there would be some form of virtual kissing of hands.* There is no such thing as an interim PM under British constitutional law; the 'winner' would be PM. At some point there would then be a Conservative leadership election, but it would not be possible to hold one for a while. The 'interim' PM would then resign and be replaced by the winner of the leadership poll, unless that person was the same person.

_{*They do not, actually, kiss the hand of the sovereign anyway. It's just a thing that's said.}

In all likelihood, I presume said 'winner' would indeed end up being Raab since that's who Boris evidently wanted in charge.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The only good thing about BoJo dying would be it might get Trumbo to take this situation seriously, but that's too much of a long shot.

[Pericles]

If Boris does come back from this (and ftr I hope he does), I wonder if this experience will change his personality and whether in turn that could alter his decision-making in the years ahead?

[CumbrianLefty]

Even if he does get through it, it might put his longer term political future in serious doubt.

[Lechasseur]

Even if he does get through it, it might put his longer term political future in serious doubt.

How so?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Even if he does get through it, it might put his longer term political future in serious doubt.

How so?

Any serious respiratory condition can cause permanent damage to the tissue of the lungs, reducing lung capacity, sometimes quite dramatically. The effect of that on a portly middle aged man could be severely debilitating.

[brucejoel99]

Even if he does get through it, it might put his longer term political future in serious doubt.

How so?

Any serious respiratory condition can cause permanent damage to the tissue of the lungs, reducing lung capacity, sometimes quite dramatically. The effect of that on a portly middle aged man could be severely debilitating.

"Iain Duncan Smith declares Boris Johnson fit for work."

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

So, a brief summary of the constitutional situation.

Raab appears to be have been designated as an emergency stand-in (without the formal title of Deputy PM) but this has no constitutional significance. Neither does the Deputy PM title. If Johnson were to die or be rendered so ill that it is not realistic for him to remain in post, then it is likely that there would be an emergency meeting of the Cabinet and quite probably a vote, or at least an earnest discussion with the same function. The 'winner' would then be nominated to the Queen and there would be some form of virtual kissing of hands.* There is no such thing as an interim PM under British constitutional law; the 'winner' would be PM. At some point there would then be a Conservative leadership election, but it would not be possible to hold one for a while. The 'interim' PM would then resign and be replaced by the winner of the leadership poll, unless that person was the same person.

_{*They do not, actually, kiss the hand of the sovereign anyway. It's just a thing that's said.}

The UK didn't have to deal with a dying Prime Minister since Palmerston.

There were however two interesting cases in Australia, dealing with an interim appointment when the Prime Minister died in office. First in 1945, when the Governor General appointed Labor's Deputy Leader, Frank Forde, as Prime Minister. He served for mere seven days, until Labor held a leadership vote, which he lost to Ben Chifley. If such a scenario were to be implemented then we have a little pickle, as Tories doesn't have a "Deputy Leader" position.

The second example from Australia occurred after Harold Holt's disappearance in 1967. The Governor General appointed John McEwen as Prime Minister. McEwen was the leader of the Country Party, a junior coalition partner to Holt's Liberals, and served under the understanding it'll last only until Liberals picked the new leader. It wouldn't apply either, as BoJo has a majority.

It'd be an interesting situation if it comes to the worst, and the country would be constitutionally leaderless between the Prime Minister's death and the cabinet picking an interim successor.

[Hnv1]

So, a brief summary of the constitutional situation.

Raab appears to be have been designated as an emergency stand-in (without the formal title of Deputy PM) but this has no constitutional significance. Neither does the Deputy PM title. If Johnson were to die or be rendered so ill that it is not realistic for him to remain in post, then it is likely that there would be an emergency meeting of the Cabinet and quite probably a vote, or at least an earnest discussion with the same function. The 'winner' would then be nominated to the Queen and there would be some form of virtual kissing of hands.* There is no such thing as an interim PM under British constitutional law; the 'winner' would be PM. At some point there would then be a Conservative leadership election, but it would not be possible to hold one for a while. The 'interim' PM would then resign and be replaced by the winner of the leadership poll, unless that person was the same person.

_{*They do not, actually, kiss the hand of the sovereign anyway. It's just a thing that's said.}

The UK didn't have to deal with a dying Prime Minister since Palmerston.

There were however two interesting cases in Australia, dealing with an interim appointment when the Prime Minister died in office. First in 1945, when the Governor General appointed Labor's Deputy Leader, Frank Forde, as Prime Minister. He served for mere seven days, until Labor held a leadership vote, which he lost to Ben Chifley. If such a scenario were to be implemented then we have a little pickle, as Tories doesn't have a "Deputy Leader" position.

The second example from Australia occurred after Harold Holt's disappearance in 1967. The Governor General appointed John McEwen as Prime Minister. McEwen was the leader of the Country Party, a junior coalition partner to Holt's Liberals, and served under the understanding it'll last only until Liberals picked the new leader. It wouldn't apply either, as BoJo has a majority.

It'd be an interesting situation if it comes to the worst, and the country would be constitutionally leaderless between the Prime Minister's death and the cabinet picking an interim successor.

I assume a meeting will occur within an hour of his death. It’s not like a president, there can be a void in time when there is no PM and we all just pretend the monarch heads the government for an hour.

[brucejoel99]

So, a brief summary of the constitutional situation.

Raab appears to be have been designated as an emergency stand-in (without the formal title of Deputy PM) but this has no constitutional significance. Neither does the Deputy PM title. If Johnson were to die or be rendered so ill that it is not realistic for him to remain in post, then it is likely that there would be an emergency meeting of the Cabinet and quite probably a vote, or at least an earnest discussion with the same function. The 'winner' would then be nominated to the Queen and there would be some form of virtual kissing of hands.* There is no such thing as an interim PM under British constitutional law; the 'winner' would be PM. At some point there would then be a Conservative leadership election, but it would not be possible to hold one for a while. The 'interim' PM would then resign and be replaced by the winner of the leadership poll, unless that person was the same person.

_{*They do not, actually, kiss the hand of the sovereign anyway. It's just a thing that's said.}

The UK didn't have to deal with a dying Prime Minister since Palmerston.

There were however two interesting cases in Australia, dealing with an interim appointment when the Prime Minister died in office. First in 1945, when the Governor General appointed Labor's Deputy Leader, Frank Forde, as Prime Minister. He served for mere seven days, until Labor held a leadership vote, which he lost to Ben Chifley. If such a scenario were to be implemented then we have a little pickle, as Tories doesn't have a "Deputy Leader" position.

The second example from Australia occurred after Harold Holt's disappearance in 1967. The Governor General appointed John McEwen as Prime Minister. McEwen was the leader of the Country Party, a junior coalition partner to Holt's Liberals, and served under the understanding it'll last only until Liberals picked the new leader. It wouldn't apply either, as BoJo has a majority.

It'd be an interesting situation if it comes to the worst, and the country would be constitutionally leaderless between the Prime Minister's death and the cabinet picking an interim successor.

I assume a meeting will occur within an hour of his death. It’s not like a president, there can be a void in time when there is no PM and we all just pretend the monarch heads the government for an hour.

Moreover, during said hour, Raab would presumably be the one 'in charge,' on the basis of his having been chosen by Boris to deputize for him in his absence.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

So, a brief summary of the constitutional situation.

Raab appears to be have been designated as an emergency stand-in (without the formal title of Deputy PM) but this has no constitutional significance. Neither does the Deputy PM title. If Johnson were to die or be rendered so ill that it is not realistic for him to remain in post, then it is likely that there would be an emergency meeting of the Cabinet and quite probably a vote, or at least an earnest discussion with the same function. The 'winner' would then be nominated to the Queen and there would be some form of virtual kissing of hands.* There is no such thing as an interim PM under British constitutional law; the 'winner' would be PM. At some point there would then be a Conservative leadership election, but it would not be possible to hold one for a while. The 'interim' PM would then resign and be replaced by the winner of the leadership poll, unless that person was the same person.

_{*They do not, actually, kiss the hand of the sovereign anyway. It's just a thing that's said.}

The UK didn't have to deal with a dying Prime Minister since Palmerston.

There were however two interesting cases in Australia, dealing with an interim appointment when the Prime Minister died in office. First in 1945, when the Governor General appointed Labor's Deputy Leader, Frank Forde, as Prime Minister. He served for mere seven days, until Labor held a leadership vote, which he lost to Ben Chifley. If such a scenario were to be implemented then we have a little pickle, as Tories doesn't have a "Deputy Leader" position.

The second example from Australia occurred after Harold Holt's disappearance in 1967. The Governor General appointed John McEwen as Prime Minister. McEwen was the leader of the Country Party, a junior coalition partner to Holt's Liberals, and served under the understanding it'll last only until Liberals picked the new leader. It wouldn't apply either, as BoJo has a majority.

It'd be an interesting situation if it comes to the worst, and the country would be constitutionally leaderless between the Prime Minister's death and the cabinet picking an interim successor.

I assume a meeting will occur within an hour of his death. It’s not like a president, there can be a void in time when there is no PM and we all just pretend the monarch heads the government for an hour.

Well. technically the monarch never ceased to be the head of the governnment

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Moreover, during said hour, Raab would presumably be the one 'in charge,' on the basis of his having been chosen by Boris to deputize for him in his absence.

This designation, and this is very important, has no constitutional significance. All it means is that he's heading up press briefings and chairing cabinet meetings.

[brucejoel99]

Moreover, during said hour, Raab would presumably be the one 'in charge,' on the basis of his having been chosen by Boris to deputize for him in his absence.

This designation, and this is very important, has no constitutional significance. All it means is that he's heading up press briefings and chairing cabinet meetings.

Well, he's also chairing the National Security Council & Boris has even given him the authority to launch military action without Boris' consent if required (& if the Cabinet agrees), so in the event of a major calamity, Raab is surely the one who's at the helm, if not formally 'in charge' on paper.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Obviously BoJo doesn't deserve to die and I wish him a full recovery.

However, I do have to say this serves him well for his disastrous management of the outbreak thus far. Usually, it's only ever regular people who pay the price for the mistakes of the ruling elite. It is nice to see that for once, a politician is forced to bear personal consequences for their actions. If that happened more often, the world would be a better place.

It used to not be that rare for a monarch to die in battle. 7 Scottish monarchs did.

And in other cases like Napoleon III, they didn't die but suffered the consequences personally as well.

[Hnv1]

So, a brief summary of the constitutional situation.

Raab appears to be have been designated as an emergency stand-in (without the formal title of Deputy PM) but this has no constitutional significance. Neither does the Deputy PM title. If Johnson were to die or be rendered so ill that it is not realistic for him to remain in post, then it is likely that there would be an emergency meeting of the Cabinet and quite probably a vote, or at least an earnest discussion with the same function. The 'winner' would then be nominated to the Queen and there would be some form of virtual kissing of hands.* There is no such thing as an interim PM under British constitutional law; the 'winner' would be PM. At some point there would then be a Conservative leadership election, but it would not be possible to hold one for a while. The 'interim' PM would then resign and be replaced by the winner of the leadership poll, unless that person was the same person.

_{*They do not, actually, kiss the hand of the sovereign anyway. It's just a thing that's said.}

The UK didn't have to deal with a dying Prime Minister since Palmerston.

There were however two interesting cases in Australia, dealing with an interim appointment when the Prime Minister died in office. First in 1945, when the Governor General appointed Labor's Deputy Leader, Frank Forde, as Prime Minister. He served for mere seven days, until Labor held a leadership vote, which he lost to Ben Chifley. If such a scenario were to be implemented then we have a little pickle, as Tories doesn't have a "Deputy Leader" position.

The second example from Australia occurred after Harold Holt's disappearance in 1967. The Governor General appointed John McEwen as Prime Minister. McEwen was the leader of the Country Party, a junior coalition partner to Holt's Liberals, and served under the understanding it'll last only until Liberals picked the new leader. It wouldn't apply either, as BoJo has a majority.

It'd be an interesting situation if it comes to the worst, and the country would be constitutionally leaderless between the Prime Minister's death and the cabinet picking an interim successor.

I assume a meeting will occur within an hour of his death. It’s not like a president, there can be a void in time when there is no PM and we all just pretend the monarch heads the government for an hour.

Well. technically the monarch never ceased to be the head of the governnment

Exactly, hence there isn’t really a void. If needed the monarch can name Raab/someone for an hour until cabinet choose a temp, but this is really unnecessary, it’s not a nuclear war here you need a strong PM.

I would go to the radical experiment of just breaking down collective responsibility and have the different ministries account to parliament on their own like in the 18th century with Raab only chairing the covid cabinet. A strong PM was not always a requirement

[cp]

Obviously BoJo doesn't deserve to die and I wish him a full recovery.

However, I do have to say this serves him well for his disastrous management of the outbreak thus far. Usually, it's only ever regular people who pay the price for the mistakes of the ruling elite. It is nice to see that for once, a politician is forced to bear personal consequences for their actions. If that happened more often, the world would be a better place.

It used to not be that rare for a monarch to die in battle. 7 Scottish monarchs did.

And in other cases like Napoleon III, they didn't die but suffered the consequences personally as well.

Anyone want to take odds on how far we are away from things getting so bad that that's how Elizabeth II's reign ends?

[Blair]

In true british fashion this whole fiasco has emerged because Gordon Brown had a feud with Harriet Harman & didn't want to make her deputy prime minister- and then wanted to make Mandelson deputy prime minister without the title so made him 'First Secretary of State'

I'm not a constitional historian/scholar or expert but we really should have some sort of codified succession; I never understand why the position of Deputy Prime Minister was not made virtually obligtatory & beefed up with the explicit understanding that they can take over the reins.

The latest rumour is that the Cabinet Office has a 'document' which deals with the national security implications of a succession or lack of in some sort of similar event; of course most of these probably date from the Cold War or from post 9/11 plans.

[CumbrianLefty]

Today's front page of the Sun is genuinely beyond parody - literal North Korean stuff.

(though hopefully, it will cause their circulation to drop yet further)

[Hnv1]

In true british fashion this whole fiasco has emerged because Gordon Brown had a feud with Harriet Harman & didn't want to make her deputy prime minister- and then wanted to make Mandelson deputy prime minister without the title so made him 'First Secretary of State'

I'm not a constitional historian/scholar or expert but we really should have some sort of codified succession; I never understand why the position of Deputy Prime Minister was not made virtually obligtatory & beefed up with the explicit understanding that they can take over the reins.

The latest rumour is that the Cabinet Office has a 'document' which deals with the national security implications of a succession or lack of in some sort of similar event; of course most of these probably date from the Cold War or from post 9/11 plans.

I assume to avoid the scenario where the second in line always undermines the PM knowing he gets the job automatically

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

In true british fashion this whole fiasco has emerged because Gordon Brown had a feud with Harriet Harman & didn't want to make her deputy prime minister- and then wanted to make Mandelson deputy prime minister without the title so made him 'First Secretary of State'

I'm not a constitional historian/scholar or expert but we really should have some sort of codified succession; I never understand why the position of Deputy Prime Minister was not made virtually obligtatory & beefed up with the explicit understanding that they can take over the reins.

The latest rumour is that the Cabinet Office has a 'document' which deals with the national security implications of a succession or lack of in some sort of similar event; of course most of these probably date from the Cold War or from post 9/11 plans.

Good points. The positions of Deputy Prime Minister and/or¹ First Secretary of State are legally nothing more than honorary titles, denoting honorary precedence over other cabinet members. The UK clearly needs a proper legislation to have someone who's clearly second in the chain of command and who can fully take over in the time of emergency. Right now all you have is the PM saying "this guy will deputize for me", which is both vague and lacking a firm legal basis.

I mean, let's imagine the Prime Minister died and before the cabinet agrees on an interim appointment to take over until a leadership election something big happens that would require the Prime Minister to make an instant decision. Who's going to make that decision? The cabinet at large or will they go to the Queen and ask her to do it in a violation of the constitutional convention?

¹ It becomes even "funnier" when you have two diffrent people serving as Deputy PM and First Secretary at the same time.

[Hnv1]

In true british fashion this whole fiasco has emerged because Gordon Brown had a feud with Harriet Harman & didn't want to make her deputy prime minister- and then wanted to make Mandelson deputy prime minister without the title so made him 'First Secretary of State'

I'm not a constitional historian/scholar or expert but we really should have some sort of codified succession; I never understand why the position of Deputy Prime Minister was not made virtually obligtatory & beefed up with the explicit understanding that they can take over the reins.

The latest rumour is that the Cabinet Office has a 'document' which deals with the national security implications of a succession or lack of in some sort of similar event; of course most of these probably date from the Cold War or from post 9/11 plans.

Good points. The positions of Deputy Prime Minister and/or¹ First Secretary of State are legally nothing more than honorary titles, denoting honorary precedence over other cabinet members. The UK clearly needs a proper legislation to have someone who's clearly second in the chain of command and who can fully take over in the time of emergency. Right now all you have is the PM saying "this guy will deputize for me", which is both vague and lacking a firm legal basis.

I mean, let's imagine the Prime Minister died and before the cabinet agrees on an interim appointment to take over until a leadership election something big happens that would require the Prime Minister to make an instant decision. Who's going to make that decision? The cabinet at large or will they go to the Queen and ask her to do it in a violation of the constitutional convention?

¹ It becomes even "funnier" when you have two diffrent people serving as Deputy PM and First Secretary at the same time.

The PM office was only acknowledged by the fixed term parliament act, till then it was a complete fiction of the first lord of the treasury

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

In true british fashion this whole fiasco has emerged because Gordon Brown had a feud with Harriet Harman & didn't want to make her deputy prime minister- and then wanted to make Mandelson deputy prime minister without the title so made him 'First Secretary of State'

I'm not a constitional historian/scholar or expert but we really should have some sort of codified succession; I never understand why the position of Deputy Prime Minister was not made virtually obligtatory & beefed up with the explicit understanding that they can take over the reins.

The latest rumour is that the Cabinet Office has a 'document' which deals with the national security implications of a succession or lack of in some sort of similar event; of course most of these probably date from the Cold War or from post 9/11 plans.

Good points. The positions of Deputy Prime Minister and/or¹ First Secretary of State are legally nothing more than honorary titles, denoting honorary precedence over other cabinet members. The UK clearly needs a proper legislation to have someone who's clearly second in the chain of command and who can fully take over in the time of emergency. Right now all you have is the PM saying "this guy will deputize for me", which is both vague and lacking a firm legal basis.

I mean, let's imagine the Prime Minister died and before the cabinet agrees on an interim appointment to take over until a leadership election something big happens that would require the Prime Minister to make an instant decision. Who's going to make that decision? The cabinet at large or will they go to the Queen and ask her to do it in a violation of the constitutional convention?

¹ It becomes even "funnier" when you have two diffrent people serving as Deputy PM and First Secretary at the same time.

The PM office was only acknowledged by the fixed term parliament act, till then it was a complete fiction of the first lord of the treasury

I think the first official document mentioning the "Prime Minister" dates from the time of Henry Campbell-Bannerman (or even Disraeli signing the Treaty of Berlin as "Prime Minister of her Britannic Majesty"), so, given the very nature of the British "constitution" you can say the title had some constitutional recognition already. Also, isn't the Chequers officially designed as a country residence for the Prime Minister, as opposed to 10 Downing Street, which is assigned to the "First Lord"?

[Blair]

In true british fashion this whole fiasco has emerged because Gordon Brown had a feud with Harriet Harman & didn't want to make her deputy prime minister- and then wanted to make Mandelson deputy prime minister without the title so made him 'First Secretary of State'

I'm not a constitional historian/scholar or expert but we really should have some sort of codified succession; I never understand why the position of Deputy Prime Minister was not made virtually obligtatory & beefed up with the explicit understanding that they can take over the reins.

The latest rumour is that the Cabinet Office has a 'document' which deals with the national security implications of a succession or lack of in some sort of similar event; of course most of these probably date from the Cold War or from post 9/11 plans.

Good points. The positions of Deputy Prime Minister and/or¹ First Secretary of State are legally nothing more than honorary titles, denoting honorary precedence over other cabinet members. The UK clearly needs a proper legislation to have someone who's clearly second in the chain of command and who can fully take over in the time of emergency. Right now all you have is the PM saying "this guy will deputize for me", which is both vague and lacking a firm legal basis.

I mean, let's imagine the Prime Minister died and before the cabinet agrees on an interim appointment to take over until a leadership election something big happens that would require the Prime Minister to make an instant decision. Who's going to make that decision? The cabinet at large or will they go to the Queen and ask her to do it in a violation of the constitutional convention?

¹ It becomes even "funnier" when you have two diffrent people serving as Deputy PM and First Secretary at the same time.

I think Al might have touched on it before but when we last had it when Macmillian's health was in an awful state- the Chief Whip (Ted Heath) asked cabinet members and backbenchers who should be leader although this was before the tories had a formal provision for electing a leader.

It's all rather chaotic; to be quite morbid if something had happened to Brown between 2007-2008 we would have had Harriet Harman as the acting leader of the Labour Party, which by rights would make her the de-facto choice as Prime Minister as the leader of the majority party; but of course the cabinet could have easily gone for Straw, Miliband or Alan Johnson.

On the whole it has generally worked previously when the DPM or first secretary of state is someone rather umabitouous, at the end of their career and without extreme views (catergories that Hague, Lidington, Green and even by the end Mandelson fell into)

That's why the Raab choice is a bit bizarre; but looking at the cabinet I can't see who else there is!

[EastAnglianLefty]

If Gove were even halfway trustworthy, he'd be the obvious choice, but if he wasn't self-isolating he'd probably have been caught sneaking into the hospital with a Do Not Resuscitate letter, so you can see why Johnson didn't pick him...