UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[cp]

I've thought for a few months that we appear to be in the early stages of a divorce between the Labour Party and 'Left Culture'. I suspect both parties will be better off apart, but it is going to be messy.

I think that would be a mistake for both parties. The 'left culture' (hate that term, but I'll go along for now) is closer to achieving systemic change than it has been for 75 years. It needs a party organization to consolidate and propagate itself. Meanwhile, the Labour Party would be worse than useless without the animating force of the 'left culture'. It would sink back into the baleful and despicable Blairism that is, unfortunately, its natural resting place for the time being.

[Cassius]

Wouldn't that be more Die Linke?

I’m sure one of our German posters would be able to answer this more thoroughly, but I’m of the impression that Die Linke is a hybrid of GDR Ostalgists and anti-Hartz IV SPD rebels and other left wingers from outside the mainstream. So yes, in certain respects more similar to the left wing of the Labour party, but note they’ve not really managed to exploit SPD’s steady implosion, as they continue to be stuck in single digits.

[Silent Hunter]

Saying it a lot though is problematic. Especially if you want to be Prime Minister.

[cp]

Saying it a lot though is problematic. Especially if you want to be Prime Minister.

The problem with that metric is that it opens up a debate about 'how much' bigotry is too much. Zero is, obviously, the ideal. But that's not how individual instances of bigoted speech are treated, even by savvy and intelligent commentators.

By any reasonable measurement, the level of Islamophobia, or homophobia, or transphobia, or xenophobia expressed by virtually every MP and prospective MP ought to be disqualifying. I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've heard politicians at every level spout hackneyed stereotypes about the French, or 'colonials' (Canadians, Australians), 'terrorists' who just happen to always be Muslim, or 'predatory' trans people. Hell, Boris Johnson wrote a book called 'Seventy Two Virgins' where Jewish characters were said to have rigged elections and were 'controlling the media'. Yet for him, obviously, it wasn't problematic. It seems the outrage about bigoted speech is selectively fastidious and demonizing, case in point: the Peake/RLB kerfuffle. Even when the details are more nuanced, people seem to take leave of their senses and follow a seemingly arbitrary adjudication. Whomever yells loudest and is the best organized and direct in their messaging wins out.

Regrettably, as a result, the resulting appearance of a double standard in how 'problematic' any given accusation of bigotry is treated fosters a great deal of rancour and cynicism on all sides.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Starmer seems to enjoy circular firing squads.

[Blair]

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/keir-starmer-rebecca-long-bailey_uk_5ef50f91c5b6acab283efcb2?iuw

[CumbrianLefty]

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/keir-starmer-rebecca-long-bailey_uk_5ef50f91c5b6acab283efcb2?iuw

Absolutely awful hack, if he thinks something is good the opposite is likely true.

[Horus]

Quite the overreaction, but I don't blame Starmer for playing it safe. The British media still wants to portray labour as an institutionally antisemitic party, even though they never have been.

[Former President tack50]

If Labour went too far, how well would a party to the left of Labour do?

Would they be able to win any seats? Or get like 3-4% of the vote at least?

[jaymichaud]

If Labour went too far, how well would a party to the left of Labour do?

Would they be able to win any seats? Or get like 3-4% of the vote at least?

There was the Respect Party in the 00s but they were winning like 0.1% of the vote

[morgieb]

If Labour went too far, how well would a party to the left of Labour do?

Would they be able to win any seats? Or get like 3-4% of the vote at least?

My guess is we see the Greens go closer to their 2015 numbers so like 3-4% of the vote. Can't see any seats changing though - the sort of seats which were Lib Dems in 05/10 but Labour otherwise are really safely Labour now so while the margins might tighten, it won't be enough to threaten the seat.

[Blair]

The lesson that both the Labour left learnt with Corbyn & the Labour Right learned under Starmer is that you stay in the party and wait for events.

The problems facing the left is that a small number of party members are leaving the party; although a lot of the very online people often who threaten to quit either don't leave or were never actually party members.

There's some hilarous talk of Lavery launching a leadership challenge but even the SCG isn't that stupid.

This sacking, as the Paul Waugh article says is slightly similar to when Owen Smith was sacked for openly defying Labour Party Policy (not for the content but rather the reaction) I remember the right & remain wing of the party had a collective breakdown over it but I was baffled- it's clear you serve in the Shadow Cabinet at the pleasure of the leader & you have to be trusted. Smith's actions were a lot more flagrant & he was begging to be sacked but a lot of people are treating this as if she has lost the whip.

For me the fundamental question is this- as a represenative of the Labour Leadership on the Frontbench was she correct to retweet an article that was A.) Factually inaccurate (as both Peake & Amensty International have now admitted) B.) Criticising her own Leader (When the comment in question was reposted by CP above the most daming line was cut out- which was Peake saying that people who rejoin Labour because of Starmer should hang their head in shame)

Again for me it's about judgement; if you're tweeting stuff without reading the article then you're sloppy & if you can't see the whiff of anti-semitism in this then you've got a blindspot- we know that Long-Bailey has a historic weakness on anti-semitism & frankly it is worrying that after she got so politically burned for this when she ran for leader that she has not learnt.

The thing no-one is discussing is that this is yet another reason why politicians should not tweet; almost every outbound communication generally gets vetted, approved and signed off by staff or the party.

In terms of the opposition there seems to be two strands; one claims it is not anti-semitic at all. Some of the people saying this are the same people who supported Chris Williamson, who supported Jackie Walker, who claimed that there was no anti-semitism in Labour & then pivoted to claiming there was a little bit & then pivoted to claim there was and it was covered up by the right of the party. If you don't think Labour has a historic failure to tackle anti-semitism then you're not going to see anything wrong with this

The second group seem to think it was a mistake but that she should have been censured. This has happened in the past, including to those on the frontbench. There's some claims that she refused to take down the tweet & apologise fully; and RLB claims that the half-apology was agreed by LOTO- as with most things happening quickly there is probably truth in both claims but if she refused to apologise fully thinking that she wouldn't get sacked...

The left of the party seem to be cranking up the machine over this; the e-petition has 8,000 signatures & Momentum are data gathering from it but frankly as someone said this morning a tad harshly it's a surpise if the left of the party are foolish to burn their capital for Long-Bailey again- who is one of the reasons why we have Starmer.

[CumbrianLefty]

Well, part of the problem for some of us is that the very worst people are celebrating over this.

[EastAnglianLefty]

Honestly, deciding your opinion based on how your internal opponents react is how we got into this mess in the first place.

[CumbrianLefty]

I don't disagree, but this is one of those things where only multilateral disarmament will work.

[MABA 2020]

Starmer made the right decision on this one, after years of dealing with this people should know better

[CumbrianLefty]

I've thought for a few months that we appear to be in the early stages of a divorce between the Labour Party and 'Left Culture'. I suspect both parties will be better off apart, but it is going to be messy.

I think that would be a mistake for both parties. The 'left culture' (hate that term, but I'll go along for now) is closer to achieving systemic change than it has been for 75 years. It needs a party organization to consolidate and propagate itself. Meanwhile, the Labour Party would be worse than useless without the animating force of the 'left culture'. It would sink back into the baleful and despicable Blairism that is, unfortunately, its natural resting place for the time being.

Have to say this is my thinking as well - the thought of the "left movement" falling (back) into the clutches of opportunist demagogic cranks like Galloway and Williamson is depressing enough, the idea that Labour would (again) become the plaything of the likes of Reeves and Phillipson if anything even more so. A rightward turn would be a lot more tolerable if I thought the Labour right had any sort of vision or even grand plan, but they don't - almost without exception they are deeply mediocre managerialists who appear motivated almost solely by the idea that they should "be in charge". To do *what*, exactly? They never tell us. And that is before we get to the reality is that much of Labour's "natural" voting base - not least in that fabled "red wall" - have interaction with these types in their daily life, and for the most part heartily detest them (how else was a Tory party, one led by Boris Johnson no less, able to - so brazenly but also so successfully - pass themselves off as "insurgents"?)

I would certainly be interested to know how the OP thinks this could actually end well for either group.

[afleitch]

Mass stabbing incident in Glasgow. Suspect shot dead. No information other than spurious rumours.

[jaymichaud]

Mass stabbing incident in Glasgow. Suspect shot dead. No information other than spurious rumours.

OMG

[brucejoel99]

Mass stabbing incident in Glasgow. Suspect shot dead. No information other than spurious rumours.

OMG

If this is terror-related, then that's 2 incidents in as many weeks.

[CumbrianLefty]

Mass stabbing incident in Glasgow. Suspect shot dead. No information other than spurious rumours.

OMG

If this is terror-related, then that's 2 incidents in as many weeks.

Now seems it may not be (and "only" the perpetrator dead thus far)

[Estrella]

Hey, do y'all remember when Boris was this amazingly popular invincible man of the people etc?

To be fair to him, people do simply get tired of politicians. It's most likely just fatigue after all of his...er, eleven months in power. 

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1276960024355618817

[brucejoel99]

Hey, do y'all remember when Boris was this amazingly popular invincible man of the people etc?

To be fair to him, people do simply get tired of politicians. It's most likely just fatigue after all of his...er, eleven months in power. 

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1276960024355618817

Good stuff, but the public's favorable attitude to Starmer needs to be extended to the rest of Labour. Seems like they like him but don't totally trust the party, though I suppose that's to be expected with a recent change in leadership. Hopefully he'll bring the party with him in time.

[EastAnglianLefty]

We're only 6 months out from an election, which is almost always too early to really change perceptions of the party, because there hasn't been time for anything else to be changed yet. Given that Covid effectively stopped normal politics for a couple of months and given that it's not going to be possible to hold annual conference this year, that probably applies even more so.

[CumbrianLefty]

All true, and Starmer getting healthy ratings is unequivocally good - but at some point they need to translate into clear Labour VI leads.

Praise from people who still won't vote Labour will only get you so far.