UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[cp]

The hard truth is that the left of the party are so unpopular with the general public that the more they attack Starmer the more his standing will improve with them.

The only Labour leader to gain the party seats in a post-1997 GE was one Jeremy Corbyn.

Or is it some other "hard truth" that you had in mind?

2017 is a political lifetime ago...

The hard left had their shot and blew it, unfortunately. Partly because of controversies like these.

Funny, I thought it had something to do with the Labour right deliberately sabotaging them, but w/e.



Getting back to the controversy at hand: as usual, most of this is hyperbolic kabuki nonsense in service of political score settling, utterly divorced from the facts of the matter.

Here's the offending quotation from the article:

“I don’t know how we escape that cycle that’s indoctrinated into us all,” continues the 45-year-old [Peake]. “Well, we get rid of it when we get rid of capitalism as far as I’m concerned. That’s what it’s all about. The establishment has got to go. We’ve got to change it.” Born in Bolton to a lorry driver father and care worker mother, Peake is strident and expressive; if religion wasn’t anathema to her, she’d be perfect in the pulpit. “Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.” (A spokesperson for the Israeli police has denied this, stating that “there is no tactic or protocol that calls to put pressure on the neck or airway”.)

The astute will note the reference is not about Jewish people or Israel, but about Israeli secret service tactics, and is mentioned in the context of a sweeping statement about the global nature of racism, not as an accusation or calumny against Israel as a state.

I can see how this puts people on edge, of course. It can be read to suggest there's a Jewish/Israeli origin to the repressive racism that set off the most recent demonstrations in the US and elsewhere. However, as others in this thread have noted, Israel has a well developed security infrastructure whose tactics and training have been exported across the world, including to the US. To call making mention of that the way Peake did antisemitic, even if it's wrong on the specifics, stretches the definition of antisemitism beyond recognition.

My last point: the article criticised Keir Starmer, her leader.

I'd have to read it again, but I took the point of that part of the article to be "I don't like Starmer but just like I told people who didn't like Corbyn you have to vote Labour to get the Tories out". Okay, maybe not a full-throated endorsement but Starmer would surely be fine with RLB promoting it to her supporters.

Again, the record is rather different. Here's the relevant line:

"What does she think of the new Labour leader? “You know what, at the end of the day, all I want is the Tories out. I think people will get behind Starmer, won’t they? He’s a more acceptable face of the Labour Party for a lot of people who are not really left wing. But that’s fine. Whatever. As long as the Tories get out, I don’t care anymore. You can’t be sad, you’ve just got to get on and organise, without standing at the rooftops and going, ‘You reap what you sow!’ There were moments when I wanted to scream that,” she adds with a doleful laugh, “but no, we’ve got to keep moving forward.”

To paraphrase myself from earlier in this post: if that constitutes being unsupportive of the Labour leader, the term 'unsupportive' loses all meaning.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Yeah, I was wondering when Labor would start shafting Momentum to the sidelines. Wouldn’t think they’d do it over this though, but I guess they needed to show that the era of international solidarity being apart of the Labour platform is over.

International solidarity against Jews isn't tolerated, yes.

The dismissals of this being an antisemitic theory are wholly unsurprising and frankly a bit funny- they sound exactly like the refusal of many on the left to accept that Corbyn and his thugs promoted antisemitism. The exact same rhetoric. If ya'll want to continue down that path, be my guests, but reality continues to contradict the apologists.

[PSOL]

Yeah, I was wondering when Labor would start shafting Momentum to the sidelines. Wouldn’t think they’d do it over this though, but I guess they needed to show that the era of international solidarity being apart of the Labour platform is over.

International solidarity against Jews isn't tolerated, yes.

The dismissals of this being an antisemitic theory are wholly unsurprising and frankly a bit funny- they sound exactly like the refusal of many on the left to accept that Corbyn and his thugs promoted antisemitism. The exact same rhetoric. If ya'll want to continue down that path, be my guests, but reality continues to contradict the apologists.

Except the story is true, there have been cases of Israeli and American police forces training together.

Edit: and no one should have solidarity with a Settler-Colonial, segregationist state. There’s a reason why the only people supporting that mess are people invested in military R&D and neofascistic parties. This handwaiving of that fact repeatedly is annoying already. You look like an English South African apologist who doesn’t ever have enough tact to actually reform the state from its current position, even just to maintain it long-term.

Anyway, I have no doubt that with media and institutional support, Starmer will sideline momentum easily. No one in power wants Labour to return to being a genuine working class party again.

[Blair]

The key word is secret services.

There is no evidence that the restraint method used has any link to Israeli Secret Services training.

[cp]

Yeah, I was wondering when Labor would start shafting Momentum to the sidelines. Wouldn’t think they’d do it over this though, but I guess they needed to show that the era of international solidarity being apart of the Labour platform is over.

International solidarity against Jews isn't tolerated, yes.

The dismissals of this being an antisemitic theory are wholly unsurprising and frankly a bit funny- they sound exactly like the refusal of many on the left to accept that Corbyn and his thugs promoted antisemitism. The exact same rhetoric. If ya'll want to continue down that path, be my guests, but reality continues to contradict the apologists.

Except the story is true, there have been cases of Israeli and American police forces training together.

Indeed it is. The only points to quibble about are that Peake made specific reference to the neck kneeling maneuver, which is not specifically indicated as being taught, and that she attributed them to Israeli secret services, rather than any other component of Israel's security industrial complex. These are distinctions without meaningful difference. The larger point - that Israel's defense industry has exported training and procedures that are being used in service of systematic racism in other countries - Peake is correct about.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Indeed it is. The only points to quibble about are that Peake made specific reference to the neck kneeling maneuver, which is not specifically indicated as being taught, and that she attributed them to Israeli secret services, rather than any other component of Israel's security industrial complex. These are distinctions without meaningful difference.

The neck-kneeling technique claim is why Peake linked Israel to George Floyd's killing. It's not a distinction without a difference but the substance of her point.

[jaymichaud]

An unfortunate no-win scenario for Starmer - he obviously had no choice but to sack her, but it's going to reopen quite a lot of wounds. The last thing Labour needs right now is the left growing an even bigger victim complex.

Of course he did, don't be ridiculous. A dressing down and apology from RLB for her "carelessness" would have satisfied all but the headbangers (who are never going to vote Labour anyway)

Impossible to see any good coming from this.

Really?

You'd think after God knows how long of Labour failing to do anything to address a massive problem that a senior member of the Shadow Cabinet would be allowed to get away with sharing anti-semitic conspiracy theories? Making her say sorry and that she won't do it again would just reinforce the perception that the leadership doesn't give a sh!t about the issue and that nothing has changed except the name of the leader. It is an unfortunate situation no doubt, but Starmer functionally did not have a choice.

What, that Israel has trained US police forces?

Counter terrorism training, lmao.

https://www.adl.org/who-we-are/our-organization/signature-programs/law-enforcement-trainings/leadership-seminar-in-israel

[cp]

Indeed it is. The only points to quibble about are that Peake made specific reference to the neck kneeling maneuver, which is not specifically indicated as being taught, and that she attributed them to Israeli secret services, rather than any other component of Israel's security industrial complex. These are distinctions without meaningful difference.

The neck-kneeling technique claim is why Peake linked Israel to George Floyd's killing. It's not a distinction without a difference but the substance of her point.

It's the example, not the substance of the point. The substance of the point is that militarized police forces are used to oppress racial minorities across the world. The fact that Israel is a chief exporter of the training and tactics for said militarized police forces is an uncomfortable, but not antisemitic, truth.

[Blair]

I foolishly said I'd do my last post about three posts ago....

We've now got several of the Socialist Campaign Group on resignation watch; including a few who serve as PPS. I'd be surprised to see more than one resign; as the anti-corbyn lot learnt the moment you walk the party tilts even greater towards the leader.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Indeed it is. The only points to quibble about are that Peake made specific reference to the neck kneeling maneuver, which is not specifically indicated as being taught, and that she attributed them to Israeli secret services, rather than any other component of Israel's security industrial complex. These are distinctions without meaningful difference.

The neck-kneeling technique claim is why Peake linked Israel to George Floyd's killing. It's not a distinction without a difference but the substance of her point.

It's the example, not the substance of the point. The substance of the point is that militarized police forces are used to oppress racial minorities across the world. The fact that Israel is a chief exporter of the training and tactics for said militarized police forces is an uncomfortable, but not antisemitic, truth.

There's a way to say that without spreading conspiracy theories that Israel taught the Minneapolis police how to kill George Floyd.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Except the story is true, there have been cases of Israeli and American police forces training together.

Edit: and no one should have solidarity with a Settler-Colonial, segregationist state. There’s a reason why the only people supporting that mess are people invested in military R&D and neofascistic parties. This handwaiving of that fact repeatedly is annoying already. You look like an English South African apologist who doesn’t ever have enough tact to actually reform the state from its current position, even just to maintain it long-term.

Anyway, I have no doubt that with media and institutional support, Starmer will sideline momentum easily. No one in power wants Labour to return to being a genuine working class party again.

Aside from stale and chewed up marxist talking points (which are again made to legitimize antisemitism), this post is blatantly false for two reasons:
1. Many politicians from the left support Israel and its right to exist and defend itself without supporting our atrocious government. What you're saying is that Jews such as Jerry Nadler who are passionate about it support Israel because they're part of the military industrial complex, and not because Israel is the only refuge for our people from antisemitism
2. The story is untrue where it matters, which I will explain (for the third time because leftists love to legitimize bigotry on their side) in the next part of the post:

Indeed it is. The only points to quibble about are that Peake made specific reference to the neck kneeling maneuver, which is not specifically indicated as being taught, and that she attributed them to Israeli secret services, rather than any other component of Israel's security industrial complex. These are distinctions without meaningful difference. The larger point - that Israel's defense industry has exported training and procedures that are being used in service of systematic racism in other countries - Peake is correct about.

WHICH MAKES THE STORY UNTRUE! Jesus, the point isn't whether or not a fraction of the police forces get training in Israel, it's whether the Israeli secret service trained police in a way that lead to the murder of innocent black people. She wasn't having a leisurely teatime talk about random facts about training policemen get, she was specifically advancing a conspiracy theory that blames the Jews for institutional racism and the murder of George Floyd.

Honestly disgusting. Again and again people proving they don't give two sh**ts about antisemitism when it involves their side.

[cp]

Indeed it is. The only points to quibble about are that Peake made specific reference to the neck kneeling maneuver, which is not specifically indicated as being taught, and that she attributed them to Israeli secret services, rather than any other component of Israel's security industrial complex. These are distinctions without meaningful difference.

The neck-kneeling technique claim is why Peake linked Israel to George Floyd's killing. It's not a distinction without a difference but the substance of her point.

It's the example, not the substance of the point. The substance of the point is that militarized police forces are used to oppress racial minorities across the world. The fact that Israel is a chief exporter of the training and tactics for said militarized police forces is an uncomfortable, but not antisemitic, truth.

There's a way to say that without spreading conspiracy theories that Israel taught the Minneapolis police how to kill George Floyd.

And if she had said (or even implied) 'Israel taught the Minneapolis police how to kill George Floyd', then that would be heinous. But she didn't. To repeat, her words were:

“Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

Her point is about systemic racism and the way states through their policing organs collaborate to enforce it on oppressed people. Her phrasing isn't as nuanced as one would hope, but it's disingenuous to impute an antisemitic conspiracy theory from it.

[America Needs R'hllor]

And if she had said (or even implied) 'Israel taught the Minneapolis police how to kill George Floyd', then that would be heinous. But she didn't. To repeat, her words were:

“Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

Her point is about systemic racism and the way states through their policing organs collaborate to enforce it on oppressed people. Her phrasing isn't as nuanced as one would hope, but it's disingenuous to impute an antisemitic conspiracy theory from it.

No, her point is Jews bad. If her point is about systemic racism, she'd talk about systemic racism rather than spew blood libel meant to incite black people against Jews. Randomly starting to talk about the Israeli secret service is not it.

[cp]

And if she had said (or even implied) 'Israel taught the Minneapolis police how to kill George Floyd', then that would be heinous. But she didn't. To repeat, her words were:

“Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

Her point is about systemic racism and the way states through their policing organs collaborate to enforce it on oppressed people. Her phrasing isn't as nuanced as one would hope, but it's disingenuous to impute an antisemitic conspiracy theory from it.

No, her point is Jews bad. If her point is about systemic racism, she'd talk about systemic racism rather than spew blood libel meant to incite black people against Jews. Randomly starting to talk about the Israeli secret service is not it.

Her quote literally began by framing the issue as one of systemic racism. She raised a point about Israel's security services inarticulately, but it's a disingenuous leap of hyperbole to frame that as propagating antisemitism.

Honestly disgusting. Again and again people proving they don't give two sh**ts about antisemitism when it involves their side.

FWIW, it is precisely because I care so deeply about extinguishing antisemitism that I despise seeing accusations of it deployed mendaciously or ignorantly, as they appear to have here.

[Boobs]

You know, people would take the far-left much more seriously if they just openly admitted to being antisemites rather than feigning offense whenever anyone calls them out for it.

[America Needs R'hllor]

And if she had said (or even implied) 'Israel taught the Minneapolis police how to kill George Floyd', then that would be heinous. But she didn't. To repeat, her words were:

“Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

Her point is about systemic racism and the way states through their policing organs collaborate to enforce it on oppressed people. Her phrasing isn't as nuanced as one would hope, but it's disingenuous to impute an antisemitic conspiracy theory from it.

No, her point is Jews bad. If her point is about systemic racism, she'd talk about systemic racism rather than spew blood libel meant to incite black people against Jews. Randomly starting to talk about the Israeli secret service is not it.

Her quote literally began by framing the issue as one of systemic racism. She raised a point about Israel's security services inarticulately, but it's a disingenuous leap of hyperbole to frame that as propagating antisemitism.

Honestly disgusting. Again and again people proving they don't give two sh**ts about antisemitism when it involves their side.

FWIW, it is precisely because I care so deeply about extinguishing antisemitism that I despise seeing accusations of it deployed mendaciously or ignorantly, as they clearly have here.

What she started with is good, but the moment she came up with this blaming the Israeli secret service (which is a deliberate way to make it sound more like a Jewish conspiracy, by the way- the word "secret" is meant to create a more sinister and scary setting to the sentence) for George Floyd's murder, it was rendered worthless. Antisemitism, actually, is very often about this: take a random fact (Israel trains cops for antiterrorism, Israel has illegal settlements, many Jews have earned wealth and influence, most Jews support liberal ideals) and turn it into a sinister conspiracy meant to pit people against the Jews (Israel is to blame for institutional racism, Israel is an illegal colonialist state as a whole and Jews should thus not have a national home, Jews are controlling the world and the media, Jews are undermining our glorious fatherland).

I always ask Corbyn apologist types to imagine themselves talking about anti-black dog whistles the same way they talk about antisemitism, by the way. Try to imagine someone blaming a large black organization for drugs in the street, and it's the same thing. It's relatively subtle, yeah, but it's still terrible. Starmer made a great decision and it makes me very optimistic that Labour can purge most of the antisemitism from its ranks.

[jaymichaud]

I think what she posted was ignorant (it's not like the entire article revolved around that one line) but not done with hateful or malicious intent. She should have just said sorry and moved on, she'd have probably kept her job.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Indeed it is. The only points to quibble about are that Peake made specific reference to the neck kneeling maneuver, which is not specifically indicated as being taught, and that she attributed them to Israeli secret services, rather than any other component of Israel's security industrial complex. These are distinctions without meaningful difference.

The neck-kneeling technique claim is why Peake linked Israel to George Floyd's killing. It's not a distinction without a difference but the substance of her point.

It's the example, not the substance of the point. The substance of the point is that militarized police forces are used to oppress racial minorities across the world. The fact that Israel is a chief exporter of the training and tactics for said militarized police forces is an uncomfortable, but not antisemitic, truth.

There's a way to say that without spreading conspiracy theories that Israel taught the Minneapolis police how to kill George Floyd.

And if she had said (or even implied) 'Israel taught the Minneapolis police how to kill George Floyd', then that would be heinous. But she didn't. To repeat, her words were:

“Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

Her point is about systemic racism and the way states through their policing organs collaborate to enforce it on oppressed people. Her phrasing isn't as nuanced as one would hope, but it's disingenuous to impute an antisemitic conspiracy theory from it.

Yes, and the example Peake used to illustrate this was: "The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.” Which is not true.

[cp]

I think what she posted was ignorant (it's not like the entire article revolved around that one line) but not done with hateful or malicious intent. She should have just said sorry and moved on, she'd have probably kept her job.

Pulling us back a bit, thank you! That sums up my view on this quite nicely.

[Former President tack50]

I agree with jaymichaud and DaWN here. What she did was ignorant and the reaction by Starmer is an overreaction. Overreaction is also understandable because Labour was too lax before on the issue (and unlike changes in other things, while this is a massive flip flop it is not one that can be weaponized by the Tories lol)

If a zero tolerance policy on that issue is what makes Labour win, even if I do not 100% agree I would shut up though.

I will also say that Britain tends to overanalyze the issue of antisemitism for some reason? Probably this is the fault of Labour (particularly the left of Labour) and its supporters, but you never hear anti-semitism stories rocking the German SPD or Greens; the French left, the Spanish PSOE or any other comparable party in Western Europe. Or at the very least, said stories are not as prevalent as in Britain.

Finally, let's remember that Bailey was not the interviewee nor did she endorse the entire interview on her not-quite-an-apology for a moment.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I've thought for a few months that we appear to be in the early stages of a divorce between the Labour Party and 'Left Culture'. I suspect both parties will be better off apart, but it is going to be messy.

[PSOL]

I've thought for a few months that we appear to be in the early stages of a divorce between the Labour Party and 'Left Culture'. I suspect both parties will be better off apart, but it is going to be messy.

That would turn the Labour Party into something more resembling the German SPD then, only in this case they won’t do as badly electorally due to FPTP and never entering a coalition with the Tories like the SPD does with the CDU.

[Silent Hunter]

Ms Peake is a known member of 'Left Culture' from her public utterances.

[Cassius]

I've thought for a few months that we appear to be in the early stages of a divorce between the Labour Party and 'Left Culture'. I suspect both parties will be better off apart, but it is going to be messy.

That would turn the Labour Party into something more resembling the German SPD then, only in this case they won’t do as badly electorally due to FPTP and never entering a coalition with the Tories like the SPD does with the CDU.

Doubtful. The SPD have lost a lot of votes in a lot of directions for a lot of reasons, but as you point out they’re operating in a different political system within a different political culture, so you can’t really compare like for like. Moreover, the party that the SPD seems to be being supplanted by (the German Greens) isn’t particularly to the left of it and certainly isn’t a party of British-style hard leftism.

[Silent Hunter]

Wouldn't that be more Die Linke?