UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[Oryxslayer]

Rebecca Long-Bailey sacked from the Shadow Cabinet for sharing a highly questionable interview from Maxine Peak, which claimed that the murder of George Flloyd was because the Israeli Secret Services had trained the police.

A new front in the forever war is open.

Of all the conspiracies to emerge from this era of uncertainty, this one is is almost the weirdest. For example, the 5G one is at least grounded in a faulty conclusion that both the virus and the 5G rollout occuring at the same time is more than a coincidence.

[CumbrianLefty]

An unfortunate no-win scenario for Starmer - he obviously had no choice but to sack her, but it's going to reopen quite a lot of wounds. The last thing Labour needs right now is the left growing an even bigger victim complex.

Of course he did, don't be ridiculous. A dressing down and apology from RLB for her "carelessness" would have satisfied all but the headbangers (who are never going to vote Labour anyway)

Impossible to see any good coming from this.

[CumbrianLefty]

Rebecca Long-Bailey sacked from the Shadow Cabinet for sharing a highly questionable interview from Maxine Peak, which claimed that the murder of George Flloyd was because the Israeli Secret Services had trained the police.

A new front in the forever war is open.

Of all the conspiracies to emerge from this era of uncertainty, this one is is almost the weirdest. For example, the 5G one is at least grounded in a faulty conclusion that both the virus and the 5G rollout occuring at the same time is more than a coincidence.

It is a simple reality, on the record, that several US police forces (including Minnesota's) have been trained by Israeli outfits. Now, I agree it is possible to do the usual AS conspiracies out of that - but the basic facts are not in dispute.

[DaWN]

An unfortunate no-win scenario for Starmer - he obviously had no choice but to sack her, but it's going to reopen quite a lot of wounds. The last thing Labour needs right now is the left growing an even bigger victim complex.

Of course he did, don't be ridiculous. A dressing down and apology from RLB for her "carelessness" would have satisfied all but the headbangers (who are never going to vote Labour anyway)

Impossible to see any good coming from this.

Really?

You'd think after God knows how long of Labour failing to do anything to address a massive problem that a senior member of the Shadow Cabinet would be allowed to get away with sharing anti-semitic conspiracy theories? Making her say sorry and that she won't do it again would just reinforce the perception that the leadership doesn't give a sh!t about the issue and that nothing has changed except the name of the leader. It is an unfortunate situation no doubt, but Starmer functionally did not have a choice.

[CumbrianLefty]

An unfortunate no-win scenario for Starmer - he obviously had no choice but to sack her, but it's going to reopen quite a lot of wounds. The last thing Labour needs right now is the left growing an even bigger victim complex.

Of course he did, don't be ridiculous. A dressing down and apology from RLB for her "carelessness" would have satisfied all but the headbangers (who are never going to vote Labour anyway)

Impossible to see any good coming from this.

Really?

You'd think after God knows how long of Labour failing to do anything to address a massive problem that a senior member of the Shadow Cabinet would be allowed to get away with sharing anti-semitic conspiracy theories? Making her say sorry and that she won't do it again would just reinforce the perception that the leadership doesn't give a sh!t about the issue and that nothing has changed except the name of the leader. It is an unfortunate situation no doubt, but Starmer functionally did not have a choice.

What, that Israel has trained US police forces?

[afleitch]

Whoa.

Way to horeshoe Labour.

I really dislike RLB.

But she shared an interview with Maxine Peake with claims which are yet to be fully substantiated about Israeli Security services but has been alleged by Palestinian activists and got the attention of Amnesty International. That isn't anti-semitic nor even remotely a dog whistle.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Beautiful, amazing decision by Starmer! Proving to the Jewish community that he's very serious on the issue is a gigantic step towards rebuilding trust.

This is also great because he took it seriously enough to delve deeper into the nuance than the Corbyn-apologist left is willing to- I've seen too many Jews refusing to go beyond "only blatantly calling out Jews is antisemitic" and understanding the more subtle ways of inciting against Jews.

It is a simple reality, on the record, that several US police forces (including Minnesota's) have been trained by Israeli outfits. Now, I agree it is possible to do the usual AS conspiracies out of that - but the basic facts are not in dispute.

What, that Israel has trained US police forces?

Every lie has a core of truth. The fact that Israel gives counterterrorism training to some police forces (a tiny percentage at that) because, well, it's an Israeli proficiency, doesn't come close to that person's claim. Taking this small fact and using it to put the blame of a huge systemic racism problem on the Jews isn't only very antisemitic, it's also extremely dismissive of the aforementioned problem.

You're blatantly ignoring the fact that the allegation isn't simply that Israel is training some police forces- it's using this minor fact to blame the murder of George Floyd on Israel, aka on the Jews. Try perhaps to understand our concerns more instead of dismissing them- Starmer is doing just that and the polls are showing it's paying off (besides paying off in being a decent human being).

I really hope Starmer is the next PM- if the Labour left dares to replace him because of this I'll definitely not support anyone they put forward and will hope they get punished in another election (possibly destroyed as a party).

[Zinneke]

Either way anybody with political acumen would know that it would court controversy - Israel always does these days apparently - so to share it when there is an anti-Semitism report coming out is just staggeringly ignorant and self-destructive.

[Oryxslayer]

An unfortunate no-win scenario for Starmer - he obviously had no choice but to sack her, but it's going to reopen quite a lot of wounds. The last thing Labour needs right now is the left growing an even bigger victim complex.

Of course he did, don't be ridiculous. A dressing down and apology from RLB for her "carelessness" would have satisfied all but the headbangers (who are never going to vote Labour anyway)

Impossible to see any good coming from this.

Really?

You'd think after God knows how long of Labour failing to do anything to address a massive problem that a senior member of the Shadow Cabinet would be allowed to get away with sharing anti-semitic conspiracy theories? Making her say sorry and that she won't do it again would just reinforce the perception that the leadership doesn't give a sh!t about the issue and that nothing has changed except the name of the leader. It is an unfortunate situation no doubt, but Starmer functionally did not have a choice.

What, that Israel has trained US police forces?

It takes a big brain to ignore a history of american systematic racism and blame everything on an attache. It partially goes back to what I said a page or so ago; some people in European politics haven't ever had to confront casual, systematic, or silent racism as a political issue, so it therefore doesn't exist. But, it does.

[CumbrianLefty]

But there is no evidence that RLB endorsed such theories - indeed, she has been attacked by some on the Labour left in recent years for being too "accommodating" towards Jewish organisations.

Many people will see it as basically unfair - she deserved censure perhaps, but not sacking.

I will still support Starmer personally, but on a rather more conditional basis than before.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Whoa.

Way to horeshoe Labour.

I really dislike RLB.

But she shared an interview with Maxine Peake with claims which are yet to be fully substantiated about Israeli Security services but has been alleged by Palestinian activists and got the attention of Amnesty International. That isn't anti-semitic nor even remotely a dog whistle.

Again, no dancing around. This isn't a claim and didn't get anyone's attention- this is a way to misconstruct a reality to blame a huge problem on the Jews. More simply put, it's a way to pit the black community on the Jewish community.

This is how RLB justified herself:

https://twitter.com/RLong_Bailey/status/1276112455891070978?s=20

Ya'll really gotta understand that w're not gonna accept "this article has a little antisemitic lie, but it's ok that I shared it because I like the liar and the rest of it is good". Just like the black community isn't going to accept "just a little bit racism", we're not accepting compromises on antisemitism. Starmer's move is a fantastic way to show Jews that unlike Corbyn and his thugs, he cares.

[Blair]

I deleted my post because frankly this is the type of thing you either agree with or don't; but if you serve on the Frontbench you do as as a represenative of the Leader & the Party. This is an issue of competence & judgement- she lacked both.

But there is no evidence that RLB endorsed such theories - indeed, she has been attacked by some on the Labour left in recent years for being too "accommodating" towards Jewish organisations.

Many people will see it as basically unfair - she deserved censure perhaps, but not sacking.

I will still support Starmer personally, but on a rather more conditional basis than before.

FWIW I say this as a subtle nudge there was the very badly handled incident at the hustings where she didn't stop the person who was going on a rant about anti-semitism smears; my own judgement is that like a lot of people in Labour she's been sloppy at dealing with the issue.

[CumbrianLefty]

Either way anybody with political acumen would know that it would court controversy - Israel always does these days apparently - so to share it when there is an anti-Semitism report coming out is just staggeringly ignorant and self-destructive.

There is that, yes.

But it still looks like an over-reaction. She should have been made to apologise for being careless, but that should have been it - I might think otherwise about certain people but (as I just said) RLB's past record on these things has been pretty sound.

I just think it is going to bring about a huge amount of strife for little obvious benefit.

[DaWN]

Look, if Labour was a party with no recent history of antisemitism then, yes, an apology and a wrist slap would be sufficient. But this is a party that is literally being investigated by the EHRC for antisemitism. A senior Shadow Cabinet member sharing conspiracy theories of Israel training George Floyd's killers is just not something that can happen under those circumstances if the party wants any hope of regaining public trust. 

[EastAnglianLefty]

Rebecca Long-Bailey sacked from the Shadow Cabinet for sharing a highly questionable interview from Maxine Peak, which claimed that the murder of George Flloyd was because the Israeli Secret Services had trained the police.

A new front in the forever war is open.

Of all the conspiracies to emerge from this era of uncertainty, this one is is almost the weirdest. For example, the 5G one is at least grounded in a faulty conclusion that both the virus and the 5G rollout occuring at the same time is more than a coincidence.

It is a simple reality, on the record, that several US police forces (including Minnesota's) have been trained by Israeli outfits. Now, I agree it is possible to do the usual AS conspiracies out of that - but the basic facts are not in dispute.

This is not correct. The claim originates in an Amnesty International report, but that one doesn't mention Minneapolis. Nor does it mention putting a knee on the neck as a technique taught.

In any case, reading Long-Bailey's statement after her sacking it's fairly clear that she made things significantly worse for herself by not immediately apologising and instead trying to defend the comments. It was a remarkably tone-deaf way to respond.

[Blair]

My last point: the article criticised Keir Starmer, her leader.

You don't generally share articles that criticise your own leader & expect to remain part of the Leadership team. Yes it's petty, yes this stuff went on under Corbyn & yes it's not the reason why she was sacked but this is a competence issue in part.

[CumbrianLefty]

Well we shall see what transpires. I still think this will get Starmer a lot of grief for little benefit.

[Blair]

Well we shall see what transpires. I still think this will get Starmer a lot of grief for little benefit.

The words on our membership card should be lots of grief for little benefit.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Starmer probably can't believe his luck to be honest. Gets to prove his bonafides on antisemitism and sack an awkward factional opponent (one he only appointed because of the promise to give shadow cabinet positions to both of his leadership rivals) in one fell swoop.

Well we shall see what transpires. I still think this will get Starmer a lot of grief for little benefit.

The hard truth is that the left of the party are so unpopular with the general public that the more they attack Starmer the more his standing will improve with them.

[CumbrianLefty]

The hard truth is that the left of the party are so unpopular with the general public that the more they attack Starmer the more his standing will improve with them.

The only Labour leader to gain the party seats in a post-1997 GE was one Jeremy Corbyn.

Or is it some other "hard truth" that you had in mind?

[Statilius the Epicurean]

My last point: the article criticised Keir Starmer, her leader.

I'd have to read it again, but I took the point of that part of the article to be "I don't like Starmer but just like I told people who didn't like Corbyn you have to vote Labour to get the Tories out". Okay, maybe not a full-throated endorsement but Starmer would surely be fine with RLB promoting it to her supporters.

[EastAnglianLefty]

The hard truth is that the left of the party are so unpopular with the general public that the more they attack Starmer the more his standing will improve with them.

The only Labour leader to gain the party seats in a post-1997 GE was one Jeremy Corbyn.

Or is it some other "hard truth" that you had in mind?

Popularity is not in fact a fixed value. There is some rather obvious recent evidence suggesting Corbyn was somewhat less popular as of December 2019.

[PSOL]

Yeah, I was wondering when Labor would start shafting Momentum to the sidelines. Wouldn’t think they’d do it over this though, but I guess they needed to show that the era of international solidarity being apart of the Labour platform is over.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

The hard truth is that the left of the party are so unpopular with the general public that the more they attack Starmer the more his standing will improve with them.

The only Labour leader to gain the party seats in a post-1997 GE was one Jeremy Corbyn.

Or is it some other "hard truth" that you had in mind?

2017 is a political lifetime ago...

The hard left had their shot and blew it, unfortunately. Partly because of controversies like these.

[CumbrianLefty]

The hard truth is that the left of the party are so unpopular with the general public that the more they attack Starmer the more his standing will improve with them.

The only Labour leader to gain the party seats in a post-1997 GE was one Jeremy Corbyn.

Or is it some other "hard truth" that you had in mind?

Popularity is not in fact a fixed value. There is some rather obvious recent evidence suggesting Corbyn was somewhat less popular as of December 2019.

And of course I know this all too well. But simply asserting "nobody likes the Labour left" as some sort of universal immutable rule reminds me of why our mainstream media has basically got nothing right since the 2008 financial crash.