UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero
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  UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero
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Author Topic: UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero  (Read 283610 times)
EastAnglianLefty
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« Reply #600 on: June 19, 2020, 02:22:24 PM »

The SNP do not have Labour's best interests at heart. They care about Scottish independence. Where this is helped by supporting a Labour government in Westminster, they'll go along with it. Where there's a political advantage to not supporting Labour, they'll do that. We're not all one big happy family.
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Blair
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« Reply #601 on: June 19, 2020, 03:32:44 PM »

The issue is that if Labour need SNP votes in the commons it is coming at the price of an indepedence referedum now; there's a world where a 2017 Corbyn Government survives a 18 months without an explicit commitment to one but that requires using Brexit as a distraction.

In a world where we haven't yet had indy-ref 2 & where we have a minority Labour Government you can guess what the price is; this is when it gets difficult for the party.

The party needs a clear public message on this & a clear private strategy to how it would treat any campaign
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Blair
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« Reply #602 on: June 19, 2020, 03:52:25 PM »

I didn't like the review; I read about 70% of it and gave up.

I'm going to sound extremely smug/obnoxious but it was very entry level- 25% of it was stuff I heard at university lectures about politics (historic decline in Labour communities etc etc) & the other 75% is stuff I've been hearing for years from people both professionally involved in politics & those with a passing interest.

I hope & very much trust that there is a clear qualitative piece of work on the 2019 election; I'm talking what seats were given extra funds, doors knocked, strong & weak social media+print messages etc etc

I'm not sure if I'm making sense but every election has the historic long term factors (harder to message & easier to argue over) & the short term mangement- this for me includes both the parliamentary term (17-19) & the campaign.

There needs to be a report into what wrong with Labour during the last Parliament & then what went wrong during the campaign; and this needs to be done internally as this is where the data is. It's fascinating as much like 2015 all the major people in the defeat have left the party and don't appear to want to publicly discuss what was clearly a poorly ran & internaly miserable campaign.

On top of that we need a comprehensive report into Labours brand; I don't think people realise that the Labour Party is an extremely distrusted & broken brand (there was actually a relatively large group of people who liked Corbyn a lot more than Labour) which requires a complete redo.

but to finish I was shocked (yes I actually was) to see Ian Lavery & Jon Trickett blaming Tony Blair again today for the election defeat & claiming it was because the last Labour Government didn't do anything that we lost seats that had given Blair a 20K majority, which I suppose renders the above pointless and just proves reviews are pointless when to quote Emily Thornberry you can just make up s**t
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NewYorkExpress
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« Reply #603 on: June 19, 2020, 08:29:39 PM »

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/uk-foreign-secretary-fire-taking-knee-comments-71320239

Quote
Britain’s foreign secretary has drawn criticism after he suggested in an interview that taking a knee appeared to be from “Game of Thrones” and was a symbol of subjugation.

Dominic Raab told talkRADIO Thursday that he understood the frustration driving the Black Lives Matter movement, before adding: “I’ve got to say on this taking the knee thing - which I don’t know, maybe it’s got a broader history - but it seems to be taken from the ‘Game Of Thrones’.”


“It feels to me like a symbol of subjugation and subordination, rather than one of liberation and emancipation,” he said. "But I understand people feel differently about it, so it is a matter of personal choice.”
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brucejoel99
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« Reply #604 on: June 19, 2020, 08:51:58 PM »

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/uk-foreign-secretary-fire-taking-knee-comments-71320239

Quote
Britain’s foreign secretary has drawn criticism after he suggested in an interview that taking a knee appeared to be from “Game of Thrones” and was a symbol of subjugation.

Dominic Raab told talkRADIO Thursday that he understood the frustration driving the Black Lives Matter movement, before adding: “I’ve got to say on this taking the knee thing - which I don’t know, maybe it’s got a broader history - but it seems to be taken from the ‘Game Of Thrones’.”


“It feels to me like a symbol of subjugation and subordination, rather than one of liberation and emancipation,” he said. "But I understand people feel differently about it, so it is a matter of personal choice.”

A lot of very, very stupid things have been said about the Black Lives Matter movement & such: from the racists who think that "Black Lives Matter" means that black lives matter more than white lives, to the racists who wanted to find a new brand of tea because Yorkshire Tea wasn't racist enough for them, but thinking that kneeling during the anthem &/or taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones may actually take 1st place for being the most stupid reaction of all.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #605 on: June 19, 2020, 10:11:25 PM »

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/uk-foreign-secretary-fire-taking-knee-comments-71320239

Quote
Britain’s foreign secretary has drawn criticism after he suggested in an interview that taking a knee appeared to be from “Game of Thrones” and was a symbol of subjugation.

Dominic Raab told talkRADIO Thursday that he understood the frustration driving the Black Lives Matter movement, before adding: “I’ve got to say on this taking the knee thing - which I don’t know, maybe it’s got a broader history - but it seems to be taken from the ‘Game Of Thrones’.”


“It feels to me like a symbol of subjugation and subordination, rather than one of liberation and emancipation,” he said. "But I understand people feel differently about it, so it is a matter of personal choice.”

For all the sh*t the T***p admin gets, we really can't overlook how deeply and astonishingly stupid the BoJo cabinet collectively is.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #606 on: June 20, 2020, 06:52:58 AM »

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/uk-foreign-secretary-fire-taking-knee-comments-71320239

Quote
Britain’s foreign secretary has drawn criticism after he suggested in an interview that taking a knee appeared to be from “Game of Thrones” and was a symbol of subjugation.

Dominic Raab told talkRADIO Thursday that he understood the frustration driving the Black Lives Matter movement, before adding: “I’ve got to say on this taking the knee thing - which I don’t know, maybe it’s got a broader history - but it seems to be taken from the ‘Game Of Thrones’.”


“It feels to me like a symbol of subjugation and subordination, rather than one of liberation and emancipation,” he said. "But I understand people feel differently about it, so it is a matter of personal choice.”

A lot of very, very stupid things have been said about the Black Lives Matter movement & such: from the racists who think that "Black Lives Matter" means that black lives matter more than white lives, to the racists who wanted to find a new brand of tea because Yorkshire Tea wasn't racist enough for them, but thinking that kneeling during the anthem &/or taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones may actually take 1st place for being the most stupid reaction of all.

It plays well to BoJo's base, though.
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cp
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« Reply #607 on: June 20, 2020, 12:23:51 PM »

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/uk-foreign-secretary-fire-taking-knee-comments-71320239

Quote
Britain’s foreign secretary has drawn criticism after he suggested in an interview that taking a knee appeared to be from “Game of Thrones” and was a symbol of subjugation.

Dominic Raab told talkRADIO Thursday that he understood the frustration driving the Black Lives Matter movement, before adding: “I’ve got to say on this taking the knee thing - which I don’t know, maybe it’s got a broader history - but it seems to be taken from the ‘Game Of Thrones’.”


“It feels to me like a symbol of subjugation and subordination, rather than one of liberation and emancipation,” he said. "But I understand people feel differently about it, so it is a matter of personal choice.”

A lot of very, very stupid things have been said about the Black Lives Matter movement & such: from the racists who think that "Black Lives Matter" means that black lives matter more than white lives, to the racists who wanted to find a new brand of tea because Yorkshire Tea wasn't racist enough for them, but thinking that kneeling during the anthem &/or taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones may actually take 1st place for being the most stupid reaction of all.

It plays well to BoJo's base, though.

But perhaps not Raab's. There was a BLM protest in Cobham (deep Esher & Walton). It was reasonably well attended, especially given the profile of the area.
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Oryxslayer
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« Reply #608 on: June 20, 2020, 03:43:18 PM »

I get the feel that in certain sections of European society, there is no recognition of structural/institutional racism and poor historical inertia and apathy, and all the other things that are frequently discussed in American (and other postcolonial societies like Brazil, South Africa, and Canada, all of which also work in this example) because the construct of race is important to ones American identity. For America to imagine itself as a multiracial melting pot where you can be X-American, the race of X must be a thing. I get the feeling that there is a whole lot less of this identity in the European subconsciousness, so there is in turn less recognition of the implicit racist actions a society performs. Islamophobia and general distrust of the Middle East? Antisemitism? All actors in European political discourse recognize these two, and utilize/attack/ignore/tolerate/punish/skapegoat people who hold those views along with whatever else they so desire depending on the parties position.

All this is to say that there are groups who don't think these issues exist in their society, since nobody talks about it like in America. These people are therefore confused as to why BLM protests are occurring and are going after their society. This strain of thought exists within the Tories, who as a whole view integration as equivalent to economic mobility and market access. This view is of course reinforced by folks like Patel and Javid who are used as examples which prove the norm. So when stuff like Windrush occurs, certain sections of the Conservative party are legitimately confused and don't possess the skills to avoid making statements that come off as racist like this one.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #609 on: June 20, 2020, 03:59:22 PM »

The irony is that Raab is himself Jewish.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #610 on: June 20, 2020, 04:18:17 PM »

There seems to have been something very nasty gone down in Reading tonight, two dead and two hospitalised.

Unclear what the motive was.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #611 on: June 21, 2020, 09:35:02 AM »

I didn't like the review; I read about 70% of it and gave up.

I'm going to sound extremely smug/obnoxious but it was very entry level- 25% of it was stuff I heard at university lectures about politics (historic decline in Labour communities etc etc) & the other 75% is stuff I've been hearing for years from people both professionally involved in politics & those with a passing interest.

I think this assessment is........slightly harsh. Though that may partly be simple relief that it didn't lazily go down the "eVeRyThInG wAs GoInG fInE bEfOrE mAd JeZmErY cRoMbYn RuInEd It !!??!!11!!" line, which is the outlook most of our AMAZINGLY SENSIBLE media remains utterly wedded to.
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EastAnglianLefty
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« Reply #612 on: June 21, 2020, 03:06:59 PM »

I think probably the fairest thing to say about it is that it's a genuinely cross-factional product - meaning it has enough in it for everybody to accept it, but that accordingly in pulls punches in multiple directions to avoid antagonising elements of the party.

Most takes I've seen on it from any faction have been either, "This proves what I was saying all along" or "This fails to denounce my opponents sufficiently", which gives you some idea of its likely utility. Though that's not necessarily the fault of the report, obviously.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #613 on: June 21, 2020, 04:00:21 PM »

I think it's fair to say Corbyn didn't exactly help the situation Labour was in, mind.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #614 on: June 21, 2020, 08:28:55 PM »

I think probably the fairest thing to say about it is that it's a genuinely cross-factional product - meaning it has enough in it for everybody to accept it, but that accordingly in pulls punches in multiple directions to avoid antagonising elements of the party.

Most takes I've seen on it from any faction have been either, "This proves what I was saying all along" or "This fails to denounce my opponents sufficiently", which gives you some idea of its likely utility. Though that's not necessarily the fault of the report, obviously.

I think the best description of it would be a 'polite version of the truth'. Which still has its uses - it is good that it has highlighted the issue of electorate churn, which is critical to understanding so much of what happened, and of what might happen in the future.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #615 on: June 22, 2020, 04:34:50 AM »

If correct, its estimate of how many 2017 non-voters went Tory last year is a genuine "scoop".

(and explains how some were surprised by the scale of Labour's reverses in the "red wall" - claims that not that many Labour voters were going Tory may have been right, but still didn't save them)
 
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Blair
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« Reply #616 on: June 23, 2020, 05:12:22 PM »

Yep I have always been sceptical of the idea that there was a huge mass of straight Labour-Tory defectors in these seats; I'm being lazy but to use Yvette Coopers seat as an example you had the Liberal Democrat vote increase by 5%, the UKIP/Brexit vote more than double in raw term and yet there was still a gap between the all of that, the Tory increase & the number of raw votes lost since 2017.. which is a long way of saying that Al is right about churn.

There certainly is an active tendency in political parties to ignore it; because it's hard to measure & goes against the natural instincts of political obsessives (you mean you weren't watching Meaningful vote No.11 on Parliament TV?)

I'm thinking aloud but there it's interesting how Boris Johnson managed to send out a bat signal to these two million voters while Theresa May appeared to have it in grasp in April 2017 but completly lost it; I do wonder how much the letterbox comments played into that.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #617 on: June 24, 2020, 10:27:35 AM »

That may have been a factor sure, but I think all else pales into insignificance compared to having a simple three word slogan that both resonated and bore constant repetition.

May never had anything as compelling as "GET BREXIT DONE!"
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Blair
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« Reply #618 on: June 24, 2020, 01:22:08 PM »

Robert Jenrick, the Housing & Communities Minister, has released documents about his decision to overrule officals and award planning permission to a property developer who was a Tory party donor.

I would be shocked if he wasn't sacked in the next reshuffle & not too surprised if he doesn't quit by the end of the week.

This comes after Labour used an oppositon day debate in Parliament to raise the issue & were going to a humble address motion to get all the documents; as obesssive brexit followers will remember this was the parliamentary tool to require the Government to turn over documents that Keir rediscovered after it fell out of use since the 1800s.

This was an example of good opposition politics; it followled a UQ & lots and lots of work with the broadsheets on this. Steve Reed, the Shadow Secretary of State, has been going at this relentlessly & is clearly not on the christmas card.

The debate in Parliament was a joy to watch; it mainly consisted of Tory MPs ranting about A.) How corrupt Tower Hamlets is B.) How Labour hate to build houses C.) How great the Tory Housing record is D.) How this is all a waste of time.

If it's such a waste of time god knows why you'd speak in the debate?
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EastAnglianLefty
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« Reply #619 on: June 24, 2020, 03:25:06 PM »

I can't see Jenrick resigning. The Cabinet Secretary's investigation has been closed on the say-so of the PM and Johnson seems to be working on the basis that nobody resigns for anything.

Which is perhaps unsurprising when you consider he's been fired from two jobs for dishonesty.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #620 on: June 24, 2020, 06:51:24 PM »

That may have been a factor sure, but I think all else pales into insignificance compared to having a simple three word slogan that both resonated and bore constant repetition.

May never had anything as compelling as "GET BREXIT DONE!"

It was an Issue Election (other things as well, but) and historically those were always won by the side able to best condense its message into something easily transmissible. 1945 was a case in point, actually. Quite often they led to, how shall we say, evaporating landslides.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #621 on: June 25, 2020, 07:57:40 AM »

I can't see Jenrick resigning. The Cabinet Secretary's investigation has been closed on the say-so of the PM and Johnson seems to be working on the basis that nobody resigns for anything.

Which is perhaps unsurprising when you consider he's been fired from two jobs for dishonesty.

Nobody ever resigning over anything ever may "work" for you in the short term, but its hard to see how it doesn't fall prey to both voter disenchantment and internal strife sooner or later.
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Blair
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« Reply #622 on: June 25, 2020, 09:19:06 AM »



Rebecca Long-Bailey sacked from the Shadow Cabinet for sharing an interview from Maxine Peak, which claimed that the murder of George Floyd was because the Israeli Secret Services had trained the US police.

A new front in the forever war is open.
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DaWN
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« Reply #623 on: June 25, 2020, 09:22:13 AM »

An unfortunate no-win scenario for Starmer - he obviously had no choice but to sack her, but it's going to reopen quite a lot of wounds. The last thing Labour needs right now is the left growing an even bigger victim complex.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #624 on: June 25, 2020, 09:23:26 AM »

Ridiculous decision, she needed a dressing down at the most.

(not least because it is a *fact* that several US police forces have had Israeli training)

And you have to wonder what his deputy thinks - odds of her taking over before the next GE have just shot up, I reckon.
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