UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero
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  UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero
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Author Topic: UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero  (Read 283704 times)
CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #3575 on: January 20, 2022, 10:46:21 AM »

If yesterday's actions have slowed the path to 54, that's good for Labour, because Johnson is undoubtedly an unambiguous anchor on Tory support right now. However, the Gray report is likely to come out early next week and if that doesn't lead to a VoNC then the Tories are screwed, because it'll mean they're not going to try and disassociate themselves from Johnson at all.

Or at least not until the electorate effectively does it for them in May.
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Alcibiades
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« Reply #3576 on: January 20, 2022, 12:01:24 PM »

The blackmail accusations are totally unsurprising considering this government’s general approach to allocating local funds.

And yes, Johnson surviving for now would put the Tories in a really awful, bizarre limbo and be great news for Labour.
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YL
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« Reply #3577 on: January 20, 2022, 01:01:42 PM »

I wonder how many letters had actually been submitted before that rumour the 54 letter threshold had been reached appeared on Tuesday evening.  Before that, the view seemed to be that it wouldn't happen until Sue Gray's report.

I'm still a bit surprised Wakeford said he'd submitted one.  I'd have thought that if he'd made up his mind to defect, as it appears is the case, he'd have kept his head down before the announcement.
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Blair
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« Reply #3578 on: January 20, 2022, 02:05:37 PM »

Coups in British politics very often fail on the first occasion- although they do equally have the distinction of getting more haphazard and hilarious after each attempt.

Some of us still recall the Hoon/Hewitt "attempt" (though it can barely be called that) with fondness Smiley

Gives me a chance to tell the great story.

The plot was unveiled during PMQs. Brown was sat in the Chamber so a note had to be passed to him. It was written in something like size 40 font on account of his poor vision- so was seen by the entire press gallery over head.
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Blair
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« Reply #3579 on: January 20, 2022, 02:11:58 PM »

It's been touched upon briefly with some radio pieces with former defecting MPs (Lord Howarth apparently played a role in helping with this one- he too defected from the Tories to Labour) but I'm not sure anyone has really covered how big a change this is.

For MPs their staff are paid for by the taxpayer but are largely working for MPs they agree with politically; so you face having to re-hire an entirely new team. You lose your entire network & the support you have from your own intake (MPs like children are often friends with those elected who join in the same year) and you lose most of the influence or alliances you have with the wider political movement.

It is for this reason why it's rarer for Labour politicians to defect; we hate our movement, but it is our movement which dominates your life in a way that Conservative politics doesn't. The Labour Party is a chore you endure, the Conservative Party is a club you enjoy. If you compare the speeches from the departing Labour MPs who joined TIG with the departing Tories this is very clear- it was a genuine emotional detachment. Despite the Dennis Healey quip the Labour Party really is a socialist Sunday school.

Anyway it's a big move and a big decision; and well his seat certainly played a role it wasn't as grubby as previous ones (which were done for Government jobs & safe seats after MPs faced de-selection)
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Conservatopia
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« Reply #3580 on: January 20, 2022, 04:18:40 PM »

The Labour Party is a chore you endure, the Conservative Party is a club you enjoy.

And if you don't enjoy it you just shoot the bartender.
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LAB-LIB
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« Reply #3581 on: January 20, 2022, 07:34:42 PM »

It's been touched upon briefly with some radio pieces with former defecting MPs (Lord Howarth apparently played a role in helping with this one- he too defected from the Tories to Labour) but I'm not sure anyone has really covered how big a change this is.

For MPs their staff are paid for by the taxpayer but are largely working for MPs they agree with politically; so you face having to re-hire an entirely new team. You lose your entire network & the support you have from your own intake (MPs like children are often friends with those elected who join in the same year) and you lose most of the influence or alliances you have with the wider political movement.

It is for this reason why it's rarer for Labour politicians to defect; we hate our movement, but it is our movement which dominates your life in a way that Conservative politics doesn't. The Labour Party is a chore you endure, the Conservative Party is a club you enjoy. If you compare the speeches from the departing Labour MPs who joined TIG with the departing Tories this is very clear- it was a genuine emotional detachment. Despite the Dennis Healey quip the Labour Party really is a socialist Sunday school.

Anyway it's a big move and a big decision; and well his seat certainly played a role it wasn't as grubby as previous ones (which were done for Government jobs & safe seats after MPs faced de-selection)

It can also be very difficult if you have a butler...
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Conservatopia
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« Reply #3582 on: January 21, 2022, 06:03:43 AM »

It's been touched upon briefly with some radio pieces with former defecting MPs (Lord Howarth apparently played a role in helping with this one- he too defected from the Tories to Labour) but I'm not sure anyone has really covered how big a change this is.

For MPs their staff are paid for by the taxpayer but are largely working for MPs they agree with politically; so you face having to re-hire an entirely new team. You lose your entire network & the support you have from your own intake (MPs like children are often friends with those elected who join in the same year) and you lose most of the influence or alliances you have with the wider political movement.

It is for this reason why it's rarer for Labour politicians to defect; we hate our movement, but it is our movement which dominates your life in a way that Conservative politics doesn't. The Labour Party is a chore you endure, the Conservative Party is a club you enjoy. If you compare the speeches from the departing Labour MPs who joined TIG with the departing Tories this is very clear- it was a genuine emotional detachment. Despite the Dennis Healey quip the Labour Party really is a socialist Sunday school.

Anyway it's a big move and a big decision; and well his seat certainly played a role it wasn't as grubby as previous ones (which were done for Government jobs & safe seats after MPs faced de-selection)

It can also be very difficult if you have a butler...

No - you just have to start calling him Comrade Butler.
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President Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #3583 on: January 21, 2022, 06:06:38 AM »

It's been touched upon briefly with some radio pieces with former defecting MPs (Lord Howarth apparently played a role in helping with this one- he too defected from the Tories to Labour) but I'm not sure anyone has really covered how big a change this is.

For MPs their staff are paid for by the taxpayer but are largely working for MPs they agree with politically; so you face having to re-hire an entirely new team. You lose your entire network & the support you have from your own intake (MPs like children are often friends with those elected who join in the same year) and you lose most of the influence or alliances you have with the wider political movement.

It is for this reason why it's rarer for Labour politicians to defect; we hate our movement, but it is our movement which dominates your life in a way that Conservative politics doesn't. The Labour Party is a chore you endure, the Conservative Party is a club you enjoy. If you compare the speeches from the departing Labour MPs who joined TIG with the departing Tories this is very clear- it was a genuine emotional detachment. Despite the Dennis Healey quip the Labour Party really is a socialist Sunday school.

Anyway it's a big move and a big decision; and well his seat certainly played a role it wasn't as grubby as previous ones (which were done for Government jobs & safe seats after MPs faced de-selection)

It can also be very difficult if you have a butler...

No - you just have to start calling him Comrade Butler.
It's okay for Labour MPs to have butlers. This meme was brought to you by Shaun Woodward.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #3584 on: January 21, 2022, 09:58:43 AM »

So when is Gray's report actually coming out? It was going to be today, according to some.
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Torrain
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« Reply #3585 on: January 21, 2022, 12:06:39 PM »

So when is Gray's report actually coming out? It was going to be today, according to some.

Johnson mumbled “next week” at PMQs, and this has been parroted by the Telegraph and Independent in the days since. There’s no official date yet, from what I can see, just a vague feeling it might happen by Wednesday.

(Most UK news outlets now have a “When will the Gray Report be released?” page, but it’s basically got the same info as this post, just spaced out over four paragraphs, with ads between each.)

If it does release on Mon or Tues, it could set us up for a third week of raucous PMQs. Although whether that hurts or helps Boris at this point is hard to see.
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LAB-LIB
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« Reply #3586 on: January 21, 2022, 01:47:21 PM »

It's been touched upon briefly with some radio pieces with former defecting MPs (Lord Howarth apparently played a role in helping with this one- he too defected from the Tories to Labour) but I'm not sure anyone has really covered how big a change this is.

For MPs their staff are paid for by the taxpayer but are largely working for MPs they agree with politically; so you face having to re-hire an entirely new team. You lose your entire network & the support you have from your own intake (MPs like children are often friends with those elected who join in the same year) and you lose most of the influence or alliances you have with the wider political movement.

It is for this reason why it's rarer for Labour politicians to defect; we hate our movement, but it is our movement which dominates your life in a way that Conservative politics doesn't. The Labour Party is a chore you endure, the Conservative Party is a club you enjoy. If you compare the speeches from the departing Labour MPs who joined TIG with the departing Tories this is very clear- it was a genuine emotional detachment. Despite the Dennis Healey quip the Labour Party really is a socialist Sunday school.

Anyway it's a big move and a big decision; and well his seat certainly played a role it wasn't as grubby as previous ones (which were done for Government jobs & safe seats after MPs faced de-selection)

It can also be very difficult if you have a butler...

No - you just have to start calling him Comrade Butler.
It's okay for Labour MPs to have butlers. This meme was brought to you by Shaun Woodward.

Yeah, how it did happen again? I think he said he had a butler and then he said he didn't have a butler and then the butler turned up a few days before the election blowing up red balloons!
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #3587 on: January 21, 2022, 02:04:18 PM »

Very relevant to the topic at hand as, of course, he also crossed the floor. After a fairly rocky start he made himself quite at home in his new party, sufficiently so that senior party figures came to trust him a great deal, which is not normal for defectors.
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Blair
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« Reply #3588 on: January 21, 2022, 02:23:56 PM »

So when is Gray's report actually coming out? It was going to be today, according to some.

‘Early next week is what’s been briefed’. Wouldn’t be shocked if it’s Wednesday- allows for the statement to follow PMQs and I expect we’ll seem some games played with selective briefing the night before.

I do wonder how much Tories are actually waiting for it to release before they call for him to go- my hunch is that we’ll just see a lot of ‘well technically it cleared the PM’ type reactions. Ofc how much does it matter what MPs say in public when the public have largely made up their mind?
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Blair
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« Reply #3589 on: January 21, 2022, 02:34:13 PM »

For those interested it seems the Tory whips have engaged in the old trip this week of naming the ringleaders of the plot and deliberately naming people who are seen as unpopular/ambitious with their colleague.

This was done by the May era whips office when they claimed that a plot was being led by Grant Shapps.
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MABA 2020
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« Reply #3590 on: January 21, 2022, 04:45:15 PM »

I'd be perfectly happy if Boris sticks around a while at this point, since all he's doing is damaging the Conservative Party. I know the Tories have a reputation for being ruthless in their desire to do whatever it takes to hold power, but I haven't seen any actual evidence of this in recent years.
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beesley
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« Reply #3591 on: January 21, 2022, 05:14:04 PM »
« Edited: January 21, 2022, 05:58:44 PM by beesley »



This could lead somewhere or nowhere, who knows.
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TheTide
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« Reply #3592 on: January 22, 2022, 07:31:53 AM »

One or two people have pointed out that this Ms. Gray person is almost entirely unknown whilst still being clearly influential and significant. Her Wikipedia article lists two possible years for when she might have been born.
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beesley
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« Reply #3593 on: January 22, 2022, 08:15:49 AM »

One or two people have pointed out that this Ms. Gray person is almost entirely unknown whilst still being clearly influential and significant. Her Wikipedia article lists two possible years for when she might have been born.

We're yet to have the 'Sue Gray for Strictly' calls like we did for Chris Whitty, Phillip May and Jackie Weaver.
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ingemann
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« Reply #3594 on: January 22, 2022, 08:54:03 AM »

I'd be perfectly happy if Boris sticks around a while at this point, since all he's doing is damaging the Conservative Party. I know the Tories have a reputation for being ruthless in their desire to do whatever it takes to hold power, but I haven't seen any actual evidence of this in recent years.

Honestly I mostly saw the past Conservative governments through Danish media and later through books, but it seem to me that the post-2010 Tories are a pale shadow of the pre-1997 Tories. They seem less competent, lacking in vision and buffoonish. Maybe it’s simply rose tinted glasses then comparing the past to modern day, but the modern Tories seem more like nepotistic country club than a political party.
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Blair
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« Reply #3595 on: January 22, 2022, 03:09:50 PM »

I'd be perfectly happy if Boris sticks around a while at this point, since all he's doing is damaging the Conservative Party. I know the Tories have a reputation for being ruthless in their desire to do whatever it takes to hold power, but I haven't seen any actual evidence of this in recent years.

They have this reputation for good reason but I think it's slightly over-priced in British Politics; Heseltine would have done better in 1997, Clarke would have done better in both 2001 & 2005 and the recent Government have actually shown a willingness imo to keep people in posts for far too long. I think the driving concern is to keep the party together in one form; which naturally makes it easier to win and govern.

Johnson's reshuffle in September was a sign of the ruthless streak but part of me wonders if it should have been done 6 months ago- just on issues like Cladding & Planning alone a lot of goodwill was burnt when everyone knew that the Governments then policies were a joke & would be reversed- as Gove has done within months of coming in as Secretary of State.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #3596 on: January 22, 2022, 03:14:55 PM »

He's also avoided clearing out the Whips Office even though its just about the worst for a government party in living memory. Which is having consequences...
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #3597 on: January 22, 2022, 03:20:49 PM »



More veiled allusions to the open secret that the PM has a drinking problem, I note.
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Torrain
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« Reply #3598 on: January 22, 2022, 03:32:15 PM »

Wakeford has clarified his previous comments - and named Gavin Williamson, then-Education Secretary, as the threatening MP. The vote in question was apparently on the Marcus Rashford-backed school meals initiative, which the Conservatives quashed over much protest in 2020.

Given the alleged threat related directly to the building (and presumed catchment areas) of state high schools, it has a vague air of plausibility about it.

Full story in the Times (behind the pay wall, unfortunately)

If true, could be quite damaging, and on a lighter note, reframes this slightly cringe photo as some kind of bizarre foreshadowing:


The Mirror don’t even need to photoshop together a mock-up for tomorrow’s front page - Williamson has given them the perfect shot.
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Blair
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« Reply #3599 on: January 22, 2022, 03:36:49 PM »
« Edited: January 22, 2022, 03:56:29 PM by Blair »

It was briefed when Williamson was sacked that the only thing he would care about was the internal conservative party positioning behind every policy issue bought to him.

He was quite easily one of the worse Ministers over the last decade, and was an example of what happens when you put someone with no direct ministerial experience into top office.
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