UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[Zinneke]

Spitting Image is back

Their Starmer and Sunak content was hilarious

Is Rishi that popular?

Sorry, but this simply does not compute

It seems far superior to the original.

[Zinneke]

But then the re-alignment happened in 2017 not 2019.

[Zinneke]

Well that's pretty much what I said (previous Labour voters going UKIP in 2015 then Tory in 2017 was far from unknown)

Yeah but some are denying that it ever happened.

[Zinneke]

He is clearly effective at picking the right side.

[Zinneke]

...to turn this country into a tea-drinking Yugoslavia through the devolution experiment

[Zinneke]

Brexit is an incredibly weak justification for Scottish independence - an independent Scotland won’t get the same kind of relationship that the UK had with the EU when it was a member state, and will face more disruption separating from an ex-EU UK than it did from Brexit itself. I think the recent surge in support for independence has been driven primarily by Boris Johnson’s lack of appeal north of the border and the perception that Nicola Sturgeon has done a better job handling COVID.

Of course, ‘getting lost in pointless constitutional wrangling’ has been baked in from the moment the Labour Party signed up to turn this country into a tea-drinking Yugoslavia through the devolution experiment, an experiment that has been continued by the Conservatives since 2010 (all these ridiculous metro-mayors et al).

Something which, of course, they did on a totally arbitary whim and for no good reason.

(funnily enough, that's the bit that "echt"-unionists skim over or deny entirely - ignoring the actual reality that the constituent parts of the UK have been drifting apart since the end of the empire)

And that being a corollary of Westminster could be incredibly distant to some people the same way Brussels was distant to some Brexiteers.

[Zinneke]

Replace "Tory majority" and "Tory power" with "(Little) English Nationalism" In Cassius's typical blue-goggled #Analysis and you have the crux of the problem that Gordon Brown was hinting at the other day.

[Zinneke]

Labour has been moving to becoming more devolution-friendly since the 1960s.

Something else that is often missed.

True, but prior to the 1980’s it was an issue upon which there was considerable division (Neil Kinnock had some choice words to say about Welsh devolution and Welsh nationalists in 1979 for example), as was the case with Europe. It was only with the advent of Labour’s repeated electoral failures that firm support for both became the consensus opinion across the party (with a few exceptions).

Replace "Tory majority" and "Tory power" with "(Little) English Nationalism" In Cassius's typical blue-goggled #Analysis and you have the crux of the problem that Gordon Brown was hinting at the other day.

Oh get a grip. If Scotland wishes to leave the UK that’s fair enough. I don’t particularly see how weakening the ability of the national government to do anything meaningful (as federalism always does) will achieve the goal of ‘strengthening the Union’, but I’m sure that you, as a galaxy-brained euro-federalist, can explain it to this slope-headed ‘Little Englander’.

"Euro-federalist" lol no way José - do you think this because I am Belgian and all Belgian in Little Englander minds are quaint Verhofstadt-like bureaucrats? you get a grip mister.

I believe in actual subsidiarity, I'm in favour a weakening of the Commission bureaucracy if anything. I also believe in the concept of self-determination, and not as some right to exploit the concept so brazenly the way the Conservative Party, the party of narrow Little Englander national interests (or more accurately, theatrical chest pumping). The Tory Party has no vocation to call itself a promoter of the Union when it sold out Unionists in Northern Ireland out down the pipleline and pretended nothing happened.

And yes, I do think there are not enough checks and balances in Westminster, and by that I don't mean some extra courts after the fiasco of the Miller II decision. The whole system is outdated, constitutionally flawed (Devolution as a concept too - I think on that we agree on), the voting system is undemocratic and allows the small Tory membership to dictate policy, and the role of an MP is to be both a top level legislator and an agony aunt for their constituency folk - something that has to change.

 and what's more it suffers from a type of conservatism that makes it impossible to reform, that of thinking quaint little rituals like "the Mace", FPTP, jeering during PMQs or whatever are all fun and games - when there are people watching whose livelihoods are at stake. Is it any wonder the Scots are tempted by Hollyrood when you see the mature adults that populate it compared to the Westminster cesspit of "my constituents and their chips of their shoulder need reassuring blah blah...".

I won't pretend the political classes in my country or indeed across Europe are any better, but surely the UK needs a constitutional kick up the arse if it wants to survive.

[Zinneke]

I think the fact that the GLC was abolished because it 'got in the way' shows that we have a rather complex relationship with devolded power in this country.

And at any time Johnson can do the same to Scottish parliament, which is scandalous.

[Zinneke]

There hasn't been much discussion about this; I'm not that clued up on the situation but it did seem to be the first time in a while where the Government, Labour, the DUP and the Irish Government all seemed in agreement that the EU had played it's hand extremely poorly with it's threat to basically impose controls on the Irish border.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-30/faced-with-a-vaccine-emergency-the-eu-made-an-enemy-of-everyone

As an FYI it's interesting how the brexit lense still clouds people's thoughts; I've seen a lot of FBPE types saying this is all completely the fault of Boris Johnson & that the EU have every right to do this...

An open question as we don't have an EU thread; how much of this stuff comes from the fact that we have a relatively new head of the commission?

I remember there being quite a lot of anger that she was parachuted in because they wanted to stop the EPP & Socialist picks winning & becauss she was a Merkel ally?

Von Der Leyen was a terrible pick but this is something the Health Commissioner should resign for as it's her purview. Problem is she's unknown. And therein lies the issue of democratic deficit in the EU. VdL is only under pressure because in the German sphere she is the figurehead. The rest of the EU citizens will blame the entire EU structure because "Brussels is in charge*

[Zinneke]

If Alliance get past DUP do they get dibs on First Minister?

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/ta_mills/status/1359137705268043777/photo/1

[Zinneke]

That's the point though, the left (in its broadest sense, thus including the LibDems) in this country is ultimately going to coalesce around some sort of EEA/EFTA type arrangement with the EU. But only once the next GE is out of the way, in all probability.

And we *won't* be actually rejoining, not until I am in my 80s or thereabouts anyway.

Those could happen. It could also be that the left remains hopelessly divided on the issue and never coalesces around meaningful reform in the next 10-20 years. I'm more optimistic about a rejoiner movement taking off in 10ish years, but that's predicated on a fair dramatic set of policy failures on the part of the ruling party/caste (Scottish independence, Irish unification, a Suez-style diplomatic catastrophe).

The problem with Rejoining is that it's quite likely that the Tories/the mainstream right of British politics basically have a veto on it even if Labour's in power. The reason for this is that it's unlikely the EU and its member states (the French in particular) will allow a Bre-entry if there's any question about the country's total commitment to the project. If one of the two biggest political parties and roughly half the country (give or take) is against the idea, then letting the UK back in would be a recipe for instability and uncertainty that the EU simply doesn't need.

Seen as I can't see the Tories doing a volte-face on the European question over the next few decades or the public becoming overwhelmingly pro-EU and embracing a European identity, I can't see Rejoin happening even 15/20 years down the line. More likely what happens is the deal is renegotiated gradually meaning that frictionless trade, free movement (or free movement in all but name) etc. are restored but full membership is not.

I'd be inclined to agree with that analysis if it weren't for the fact that the same conditions existed from the 70s-90s but with the parties' roles reversed. Prior to 1973, Labour was the party more hostile to EEC membership (both parties had pro and anti wings), but that didn't stop the Tories from petitioning for membership nor the EEC from granting it.* Flash forward 25 years and Labour had performed pretty much a volte face on the issue and became the more pro-EU of the major parties.

I agree a Rejoiner movement won't be viable as long as there's a roughly 50/50 split in opinion on the matter and until then a series of small adjustments will be made to put humpty dumpty back together again in all but name. Sadly, with the lot in charge of Labour right now, even that faint hope is unrealistic.

*Worth keeping in mind, as well, that the EEC/EU have seen the UK as a strategic partner no matter how bolshie or bigotedly anti-European the government of the day might be. Total commitment was never a condition for joining. Opposition to UK entry into the EEC prior to 1973 had more to do with DeGaulle's desire not to dilute French power or increase American influence in Europe by the back door.

The EU is not the EEC, and of course in 1973 we hadn't already left that organisation. You seem to be ignoring the nearly half century of history since 1973.

The EU will continue to seek 'more Europe', regardless of whether member states get cold feet. The EU we left will rapidly diverge to a point where they won't want us to 'spoil' their plans, like removing vetoes etc, and neither would such a trajectory be acceptable to the British public. I mean we haven't been gone long and the EU is already cosying up to China and Russia. We aren't going to rejoin.

What, when its diplomats are caught protesting for Navalny and sent home?

And I don't think the UK can really lecture people on the dangers on cosying up to China, even though I agree with you its absolutely scandalous how cynical the Germans are acting, all so that their car industry doesn't make a loss during the pandemic.

[Zinneke]

The idea of Patel choosing the replacement should be enough for any sane person to realise that this symbolic scalp is not worth it.

[Zinneke]

If Labour gets blown out would there be talk of a leadership election?

[Zinneke]

So far in the Cummings deposition Hancock is coming out very bad it seems. He really incarnates the careerist pipsqueak type of Tory I actually despise more than someone like Johnson who just assumes who he is and doesn't try to hide it.

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/JohnnyMercerUK/status/1397490663202172933?ref_src=twsrc%5Etf...

Hancock & co are only there because Boris doesn't want anyone to overshadow him - he wants a Cabinet of yes-men.

Yup but true to their nature they all brief against him too

[Zinneke]

Isn't Cummings mostly in league with Gove?

[Zinneke]

There comes a point where we’re going to have to say goodbye to all COVID restrictions. We can’t keep putting our head in the sand. I wonder whether it’ll end up like post-war rationing.

I can’t comment on these studies specifically, but it is extraordinary some of the data/assumptions which go into some of the scientists’ models. They deserve a lot more public scrutiny,

Saying goodbye to all Covid restrictions is not gonna happen until the pandemic, in the strictest sense of the word, ends. Why is only Cummings flagging up the disastrous border policies that led to the Indian variant becoming widespread in the first place? I get that people want to see their families but we all have to make sacrifices, and a 10 day quarantine on entry like Taiwan and Australia enforced wouldn't have gone amiss. The UK doesnt have the excuse of "We're not an island so we can't control who comes in and out" that the EU deployed for its total mismanagement of travel. I travelled twice for work purposes and twice i could have got away scott free without any quarantine whatsoever, just a sh**tty QR code.

Point being : yet again the debate seems to be a black-white "FREEDOM, LEAVE US ALONE" vs an imaginary enemy, the Public Health Officials that somehow are hell bent on ruining armchair reactionaries who didnt get out much before 2020 anyway. When really the debate should be which measures are effective and allow us to resume normal life the quickest way possible.

[Zinneke]

The pandemic is over - the disease in now endemic in the UK but that ultimately doesn’t matter because we can now combat it with vaccines. 60% of the UK population (including children) have had at least one dose of the vaccine, that’ll probably rise to about 66% by June 21st based on the current pace of vaccinations. Nearly all of the most vulnerable groups have now had their two vaccines. It’s Summer. There’s no evidence that the “Indian” or any other variant has the ability to evade the vaccine in any significant way. It’s over and it’s time to return to normal.

Doesn't matter, all it takes is one variant that is resistant and you're screwed - especially as your bezzie mates's vaccine from AZ is apparently weak against variants. Especially if you preach hard borders but let a couple of thousand people travel the world in the mean time - I wonder how working class Britain will react to the jet setters bringing back a variant that screws them again.

But rather typical of the Brexit accolytes  to think the world begins and ends in the UK. Only Gordon Brown has made any sense with his proposal to vaccinate the third world.

[Zinneke]

It continues: in today's Torygraph:
Why would any true conservative vote for this soft-Left bunch of eco-extremist, Tory statists?

Bit rich of Douglas Murray to criticise "Re-Alignement" tactics when he has basically made a career out of fiercely attacking left-liberal strawmen and promoting the Culture Wars so he can sell more books.

[Zinneke]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/23/uk-education-secretary-mocked-for-one-britain-one-nation-day-song

How did we get to a point where the likes of Hancock and Williamson were allowed to be Ministers? Surely they are facing the sack in the next reshuffle?

[Zinneke]

Yep he's a horndog

https://twitter.com/rachaelvenables/status/1408322363666665475

Strikes me as exactly the kind of guy who works with the young female intern for "extra technology classes" and ignores the top brass. But then again that's what all of his boss's former employers say about Johnson.

[Zinneke]

Tinfoil Hat O’Clock: Johnson decided to get rid of Hancock after Cummings’ gave his evidence, but needed a way to lever him out without it looking like it was caused by Cummings, so the government leaked the 18 certificate CCTV camera footage.

Occam's Razor sort of dictates that its simply a member or several of the Health Ministry's staff that have an axe to grind with one of their more incompetent leaders in recent memory, and that the fact that Cummings exposed him yet he still got away with it because he's a Loxbridge arsewipe just angered them further.

I mean, I imagine a lot of the public sector now feel utter contempt towards these clowns.

[Zinneke]

Has this guy gone completely crazy?

That Rubicon was crossed a while ago :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQA2X4yvK_g