UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[cp]

An utterly ludicrous and insulting to the intelligence, indeed all but actually gaslighting, "review" of police behaviour during the recent women's safety vigil in London has been published. Complete with genuinely Orwellian demands that people "apologise" for impugning their integrity.

Who is this actually meant to convince?

Kier Starmer of how he was right all along?

[CumbrianLefty]

Nice try - but since the furore over this is widely seen as convincing the Labour front bench that they should oppose the current policing bill proposals, that arguably says more about your personal animus towards SKS than anything else

(btw, its "Keir")

[cp]

Nice try - but since the furore over this is widely seen as convincing the Labour front bench that they should oppose the current policing bill proposals, that arguably says more about your personal animus towards SKS than anything else

(btw, its "Keir")

Lol. The fact that front bench was following a person who hadn't figured out opposing that monstrosity of a bill from the get-go was the right thing to do is indictment enough. My personal feelings need not enter for people to recognize it as yet another Starmer embarrassment. But if you don't want to take my word for it ...

https://twitter.com/jamesjohnson252/status/1376956230695018502

(btw, it's "Keith")

[CumbrianLefty]

Poll shows Labour doing less well than they were in the same seats late last year shocker.

Oh and btw again, for the *real* hardcore its actually "Kieth"

[Blair]

The polling is bad but the push polling Qs on it found the second reason for not voting Labour was because they were ‘playing party politics’ with COVID...

[CumbrianLefty]

But that is the sort of thing quite a few low-information voters *do* say. Whereas a common criticism from the politically engaged is, indeed, that Starmer and his party have not been opposing the Tories enough. Which maybe just shows its a no-win situation if you aren't in government?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I mean push-polling will find whatever the person designing the survey wants to find (up to a point) which is why it has such a bad name! There's also an obvious problem with doing marginals polling and asking the people who say they are not voting for Party X why...

[Statilius the Epicurean]

But that is the sort of thing quite a few low-information voters *do* say. Whereas a common criticism from the politically engaged is, indeed, that Starmer and his party have not been opposing the Tories enough. Which maybe just shows its a no-win situation if you aren't in government?

Yeah that data point reads to me like people being asked if a politician is doing politics, and saying yes.

[cp]

But that is the sort of thing quite a few low-information voters *do* say. Whereas a common criticism from the politically engaged is, indeed, that Starmer and his party have not been opposing the Tories enough. Which maybe just shows its a no-win situation if you aren't in government?

Yeah that data point reads to me like people being asked if a politician is doing politics, and saying yes.

Agreed, it's an insipid question. I suppose the significance to be drawn from it, though, is that it's part of a poll that's being broadcast loudly and portrayed as valid, as opposed to being buried and shrugged off. Starmer still hasn't found a way to steal the spotlight from the Tories and their preferred media narrative. (Probably won't happen until we stop talking about the 'Red Wall' altogether, tbh).

[Blair]

On that topic there was quite a good piece recently about some of the actual demographics in these 'red wall' seats, which have a higher owner occupier % than most Westminster people think. There's also the fact that some of these seats are historic marginals where as others haven't even come close to be being marginal.

There's a rather poor perception in Westminster (in all parties & the media) about what these red wall seats are & what they actually have in common.

My favourite was a journalist FT deciding to do a tour of red wall seats that started in Wirral South!

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The original idea was that there were several clusters of constituencies with a demographic profile that matched pretty closely the national average in most respects but which, despite that, were stubbornly voting Labour. When large numbers of these seats were lost (sometimes rather badly) in the '19 election as Labour's vote collapsed outside constituencies with significant pro-European voting pressures, suddenly the term was used in a much wider sense and often found itself being combined with stupid and decades* out-of-date stereotypes about the North of England.

My observation would be that there shouldn't be anything odd about constituencies with 'normal' demographic profiles electing Labour MPs!

_{*More like half a century in some cases.}

[EastAnglianLefty]

But that is the sort of thing quite a few low-information voters *do* say. Whereas a common criticism from the politically engaged is, indeed, that Starmer and his party have not been opposing the Tories enough. Which maybe just shows its a no-win situation if you aren't in government?

Yeah that data point reads to me like people being asked if a politician is doing politics, and saying yes.

Agreed, it's an insipid question. I suppose the significance to be drawn from it, though, is that it's part of a poll that's being broadcast loudly and portrayed as valid, as opposed to being buried and shrugged off. Starmer still hasn't found a way to steal the spotlight from the Tories and their preferred media narrative. (Probably won't happen until we stop talking about the 'Red Wall' altogether, tbh).

I doubt there's any way of controlling the media narrative, given how reflexively loyal to the Tories the bulk of it is these days, particularly at an editorial level. The best you can do is not to present an easy target, but that's a defensive strategy. You need some way of getting your message out despite a media that is aggressively disinterested in helping you with that.

I think that is probably a bigger challenge for Starmer than the generalised background grumbling.

[CumbrianLefty]

But that is the sort of thing quite a few low-information voters *do* say. Whereas a common criticism from the politically engaged is, indeed, that Starmer and his party have not been opposing the Tories enough. Which maybe just shows its a no-win situation if you aren't in government?

Yeah that data point reads to me like people being asked if a politician is doing politics, and saying yes.

Agreed, it's an insipid question. I suppose the significance to be drawn from it, though, is that it's part of a poll that's being broadcast loudly and portrayed as valid, as opposed to being buried and shrugged off. Starmer still hasn't found a way to steal the spotlight from the Tories and their preferred media narrative. (Probably won't happen until we stop talking about the 'Red Wall' altogether, tbh).

I doubt there's any way of controlling the media narrative, given how reflexively loyal to the Tories the bulk of it is these days, particularly at an editorial level. The best you can do is not to present an easy target, but that's a defensive strategy. You need some way of getting your message out despite a media that is aggressively disinterested in helping you with that.

I think that is probably a bigger challenge for Starmer than the generalised background grumbling.

Cutting out unforced errors can't hurt.

(just this morning we woke up to the news SKS had decided to mark Easter by visiting a church - all well and good you might say, except that this one believes gay people can be "cured"; not just that, but then PM May got stick for visiting it a few years ago)

[Blair]

But that is the sort of thing quite a few low-information voters *do* say. Whereas a common criticism from the politically engaged is, indeed, that Starmer and his party have not been opposing the Tories enough. Which maybe just shows its a no-win situation if you aren't in government?

Yeah that data point reads to me like people being asked if a politician is doing politics, and saying yes.

Agreed, it's an insipid question. I suppose the significance to be drawn from it, though, is that it's part of a poll that's being broadcast loudly and portrayed as valid, as opposed to being buried and shrugged off. Starmer still hasn't found a way to steal the spotlight from the Tories and their preferred media narrative. (Probably won't happen until we stop talking about the 'Red Wall' altogether, tbh).

I doubt there's any way of controlling the media narrative, given how reflexively loyal to the Tories the bulk of it is these days, particularly at an editorial level. The best you can do is not to present an easy target, but that's a defensive strategy. You need some way of getting your message out despite a media that is aggressively disinterested in helping you with that.

I think that is probably a bigger challenge for Starmer than the generalised background grumbling.

Cutting out unforced errors can't hurt.

(just this morning we woke up to the news SKS had decided to mark Easter by visiting a church - all well and good you might say, except that this one believes gay people can be "cured"; not just that, but then PM May got stick for visiting it a few years ago)

A pretty huge & stupid error, and quite worrying after the other recent failures for LGBT rights within Labour- I'm actually quite surprised that there hasn't been an on the record apology from Starmer over this.

It appears that Prince Charles also visited it recently...

[cp]

But that is the sort of thing quite a few low-information voters *do* say. Whereas a common criticism from the politically engaged is, indeed, that Starmer and his party have not been opposing the Tories enough. Which maybe just shows its a no-win situation if you aren't in government?

Yeah that data point reads to me like people being asked if a politician is doing politics, and saying yes.

Agreed, it's an insipid question. I suppose the significance to be drawn from it, though, is that it's part of a poll that's being broadcast loudly and portrayed as valid, as opposed to being buried and shrugged off. Starmer still hasn't found a way to steal the spotlight from the Tories and their preferred media narrative. (Probably won't happen until we stop talking about the 'Red Wall' altogether, tbh).

I doubt there's any way of controlling the media narrative, given how reflexively loyal to the Tories the bulk of it is these days, particularly at an editorial level. The best you can do is not to present an easy target, but that's a defensive strategy. You need some way of getting your message out despite a media that is aggressively disinterested in helping you with that.

I think that is probably a bigger challenge for Starmer than the generalised background grumbling.

Cutting out unforced errors can't hurt.

(just this morning we woke up to the news SKS had decided to mark Easter by visiting a church - all well and good you might say, except that this one believes gay people can be "cured"; not just that, but then PM May got stick for visiting it a few years ago)

A pretty huge & stupid error, and quite worrying after the other recent failures for LGBT rights within Labour- I'm actually quite surprised that there hasn't been an on the record apology from Starmer over this.

It appears that Prince Charles also visited it recently...

It appears an apology has been received by LGBT+ Labour. Not released publicly, tho.

As for changing the media narrative, I think there are more options available to do so than Starmer's team is willing to contemplate. However, those tactics are the sort that Corbyn employed so of course they're not going to use them.

[Cassius]

The reason why they’re visiting it is, I assume, because the Church has been running a food bank throughout the pandemic and recently set up a vaccination centre as well - the senior pastor has called upon his congregants to get vaccinated, in conjunction with calls from sixty other black-majority churches. Given the well publicised (and polled) concerns about the reluctance of Black British people to get vaccinated, I’m sure this is all to the good, given that (as far as I’m aware) black Britons are considerably more likely to be churchgoing Christians than those from other ethnic groups. Given that many minority religious voters vote Labour, I don’t see how barring the Labour leader from interacting with any denominations that don’t affirm homosexuality (which is, you know, the vast majority of them) is particularly smart politics.

[Blair]

I hear Keir is considering his position over this threat...

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1378338963312803841

[Estrella]

But that is the sort of thing quite a few low-information voters *do* say. Whereas a common criticism from the politically engaged is, indeed, that Starmer and his party have not been opposing the Tories enough. Which maybe just shows its a no-win situation if you aren't in government?

Yeah that data point reads to me like people being asked if a politician is doing politics, and saying yes.

Agreed, it's an insipid question. I suppose the significance to be drawn from it, though, is that it's part of a poll that's being broadcast loudly and portrayed as valid, as opposed to being buried and shrugged off. Starmer still hasn't found a way to steal the spotlight from the Tories and their preferred media narrative. (Probably won't happen until we stop talking about the 'Red Wall' altogether, tbh).

I doubt there's any way of controlling the media narrative, given how reflexively loyal to the Tories the bulk of it is these days, particularly at an editorial level. The best you can do is not to present an easy target, but that's a defensive strategy. You need some way of getting your message out despite a media that is aggressively disinterested in helping you with that.

I think that is probably a bigger challenge for Starmer than the generalised background grumbling.

Cutting out unforced errors can't hurt.

(just this morning we woke up to the news SKS had decided to mark Easter by visiting a church - all well and good you might say, except that this one believes gay people can be "cured"; not just that, but then PM May got stick for visiting it a few years ago)

A pretty huge & stupid error, and quite worrying after the other recent failures for LGBT rights within Labour- I'm actually quite surprised that there hasn't been an on the record apology from Starmer over this.

It appears that Prince Charles also visited it recently...

Did Labour have any big failures on the LGB part recently? (That the party has a very big problem with the T is sadly obvious)

[Cassius]

I hear Keir is considering his position over this threat...

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1378338963312803841

The Virgin Former Director of Public Prosecutions and Knight of the Realm vs the Chad Loft Dwelling BA Law and French Graduate.

[CumbrianLefty]

I hear Keir is considering his position over this threat...

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1378338963312803841

Two days late with this one, methinks

[Blair]

Alan Duncan has released his diaries.

They're not really a huge surprise & his views were widely known at the time when he was a minister.

He's certainly a dying breed of a Tory MP....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/03/boris-johnson-a-clown-with-no-diplomacy-skills-says-ex-deputy-in-diaries

[Property Representative of the Harold Holt Swimming Centre]

Alan Duncan has released his diaries.

They're not really a huge surprise & his views were widely known at the time when he was a minister.

He's certainly a dying breed of a Tory MP....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/03/boris-johnson-a-clown-with-no-diplomacy-skills-says-ex-deputy-in-diaries

Opportunistic careerists certainly are not a dying breed in the Tories.

[CumbrianLefty]

Duncan described BoJo accurately in a single four letter profanity, though

[beesley]

My favourite Alan Duncan moment was when he asked John Bercow for a debate and vote to 'consider the merits' of Johnson's becoming Prime Minister and it was rejected.

[Blair]

Alan Duncan has released his diaries.

They're not really a huge surprise & his views were widely known at the time when he was a minister.

He's certainly a dying breed of a Tory MP....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/03/boris-johnson-a-clown-with-no-diplomacy-skills-says-ex-deputy-in-diaries

Opportunistic careerists certainly are not a dying breed in the Tories.

I meant more so in the sense of writing diaries with this exact purpose!