What is your opinion of Christianity?
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SnowLabrador
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« Reply #75 on: May 20, 2020, 09:55:47 AM »

A 2,000-year-old fairy tale that should not be believed anymore.
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Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers
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« Reply #76 on: May 23, 2020, 01:06:15 AM »

Its explainable thru the astral plane. The Death angel is God himself and your consciousness leaves your body after death. The body is nothing but a plot when you die.

The closest thing to the astral plane are aliens, whom are other life forms on other planets which are reachable with a star ship enterprise spacecraft which humans may need in the future. But, the closet thing to extra terrestrial life is astral plane, whether or not there is reincarnation is debatable and wont be known til we die.
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« Reply #77 on: May 23, 2020, 01:44:23 AM »

A 2,000-year-old fairy tale that should not be believed anymore.

Its explainable thru the astral plane. The Death angel is God himself and your consciousness leaves your body after death. The body is nothing but a plot when you die.

The closest thing to the astral plane are aliens, whom are other life forms on other planets which are reachable with a star ship enterprise spacecraft which humans may need in the future. But, the closet thing to extra terrestrial life is astral plane, whether or not there is reincarnation is debatable and wont be known til we die.

Both sides have a point.
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VBM
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« Reply #78 on: June 26, 2020, 11:15:34 AM »

What are you basing this opinion on? Is there any evidence?
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RFayette
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« Reply #79 on: June 26, 2020, 11:43:31 AM »

What are you basing this opinion on? Is there any evidence?

There is plenty of evidence - for starters, look into the resurrection.
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« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2020, 12:04:05 PM »

What are you basing this opinion on? Is there any evidence?

There is plenty of evidence - for starters, look into the resurrection.
So... no evidence...
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RI
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« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2020, 02:05:43 PM »

What are you basing this opinion on? Is there any evidence?

There is plenty of evidence - for starters, look into the resurrection.
So... no evidence...

There is no direct physical evidence for the resurrection, but the same can be said of the vast majority of historical persons and events of the ancient world. The amount of historical evidence for the resurrection is actually quite high, with far more contemporaneous, preserved primary and secondary sources than for any other similar ancient event.

The vast majority of historical and textual scholars of the New Testament, Christian or otherwise, agree on the following points:

1) Jesus lived in Judea at the beginning of the first century, died at the hands of the Romans, and was buried in a tomb.
2) The tomb was subsequently found empty.
3) Many people claimed to have seen Jesus alive after this.
4) An account of the above three facts was consistently established no later than AD 50 when written in the Pauline epistles, almost certainly taken from an earlier oral tradition he heard when serving the Roman Empire to combat the nascent Christian sect. Paul personally met many people who claimed Jesus appeared to them post-death.
5) Despite losing their leader, becoming fugitives and outcasts, and having personally denied Jesus, the twelve disciples (and Paul) would evangelize from India to the furthest reaches to the Roman Empire in their lifetimes, and, to a man, choose martyrdom over recanting their claim of seeing a resurrected Jesus.

You can conceive of a few ways to explain some of these points, and perhaps all of them, without acknowledging the historicity of the resurrection, but doing so requires fairly contorted theorizing. For example, perhaps Jesus's body was stolen and an impostor appeared in his stead-- an impostor who was able to convince the disciples (who had spent years with Jesus) that he was who he claimed to be, who could show the scars of the crucifixion, and who would choose to do so knowing full well it would make him a massive enemy of the state for little reward.

Or perhaps Jesus faked his death and, despite massive blood loss and gaping wounds and zero medical care, rolled away (perhaps with help) a massive stone to escape some days later before recovering and appearing to the disciples and eventually abandoning everyone he knew and dying without any known burial location (why would the disciples carry on to their deaths claiming otherwise if they knew he simply lived on?).

Or perhaps it was some mass delusion or hallucination, occurring to over 500 people on numerous occasions, some of whom such as James were diehard skeptics. Or some mass lie was crafted, wherein hundreds of people chose to commit themselves to a non-provable, non-beneficial condition which made them enemies of the state and for which none ever recanted, even at execution. Or perhaps Paul made it all up much later, convinced hundreds to give up everything they had to spread a lie, forged the Gospels which all use differing writing styles and date to different decades, and did so all to lose his comfy position as a high-ranking Roman citizen, become ostracized, imprisoned, and executed, all without ever recanting.

Consider the denouement of Jesus's passion: the disciples see their leader killed, flee from Jerusalem having denied knowing Jesus, and hide as wanted criminals. Their Messiah was supposed to conquer Israel's enemies and rule as David did, not die as the lowest criminal. His death, according to Jewish law, showing the disciples that the Pharisees were correct and that Jesus had been a heretic all along, a man cursed by God. By Jewish belief, the only possible resurrection was that which would occur at the end of time; there was no pining for a resurrecting Messiah. They gave up everything they ever had for nothing.

Suppose they locked themselves in the upper room and decided to concoct a story that Jesus had risen. What would they gain? Who would believe them, fugitive heretics, and do so without might or evidence, especially when the Jewish people did not believe God acted in such a way as they would claim? It would've been a catastrophic plan.

Why not quietly slink back to their hometowns and hope to pick up where they left off? Or take on new identities and start over?

But instead, something happened. Something which convinced them to proclaim something no one wanted to hear, about a man no one wanted to know anymore, with great fervor, and at great personal danger to themselves. This something convinced the skeptics around them. Somehow it worked. It worked so well that it conquered the Roman Empire. It became the largest religion in the world, enduring for millennia with the same, unchanging message.

Is that evidence of the resurrection? I don't know. But the most parsimonious answer I've seen so far to the above evidence is that it happened.
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RFayette
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« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2020, 02:44:56 PM »

I agree with Dr. RI and appreciate that he took the time to make such a detailed post on this matter. 

I would like to add one thing:  the strength of the above evidence is dependent upon how intrinsically probable or improbable you believe miracles are.  Some people, like David Hume, basically take the position that any natural explanation, no matter how far-fetched, is more likely than a miracle.  However, if there are independent reasons to believe there is an omnipotent God that by definition can perform miracles, then the evidence for the resurrection is much more powerful. 

While there are many arguments for the existence of God, I think Aquinas's first 3 ways are the most compelling.  These are considered cosmological arguments and argue that an unconditioned, non-contingent reality with the divine attributes is necessary to ground the continuing existence of our universe as well as the change and cause/effect that takes place within it.  I would encourage people to research more into it - this is a good *introduction* to these kinds of arguments. 
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #83 on: June 26, 2020, 03:15:41 PM »

I agree with Dr. RI and appreciate that he took the time to make such a detailed post on this matter. 

I would like to add one thing:  the strength of the above evidence is dependent upon how intrinsically probable or improbable you believe miracles are.  Some people, like David Hume, basically take the position that any natural explanation, no matter how far-fetched, is more likely than a miracle.  However, if there are independent reasons to believe there is an omnipotent God that by definition can perform miracles, then the evidence for the resurrection is much more powerful. 

While there are many arguments for the existence of God, I think Aquinas's first 3 ways are the most compelling.  These are considered cosmological arguments and argue that an unconditioned, non-contingent reality with the divine attributes is necessary to ground the continuing existence of our universe as well as the change and cause/effect that takes place within it.  I would encourage people to research more into it - this is a good *introduction* to these kinds of arguments. 

     Though if one is going to accept the Humean prior that miracles are impossible and therefore there are no miracles, it makes no sense to ask for evidence of Christianity. The decision then has already been made to reject the evidence and conclude Christianity is false, regardless of what is said in defense of the faith. Indeed, many atheist thinkers have stopped demanding evidence and admitted that they cannot be persuaded to believe in God. Just look at Shermer's Last Law as an example, wherein he assumes an epistemology that, if applied consistently, leads us to solipsism.
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afleitch
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« Reply #84 on: June 26, 2020, 03:42:20 PM »

If the first formal account is 50AD, then it's not contemporaneous. There are a whole manner of reasons to doubt the narrative, but for a thought exercise let's grant some authority to what people said they saw, we still have no reason to favour a supernatural explanation over a natural explanation. Particularly from a people, generally conditioned to see supernatural explanations for all manner of things. Even the 'advanced' Romans. So you are making a concession for this one event and other events surrounding your belief system. You can accept the narrative as you describe it, but the hypothesis is based on belief alone.

Alluding to Hume here. There are no cases where previously assumed and accepted (for want of an explanation to the contrary) supernatural explanations have won out over naturalistic explanations.

If we do not currently have a plausible naturalistic explanation for the resurrection narrative, if that narrative is accepted as a 'truth' it is still more likely that there will be a plausible naturalistic explanation for the narrative in the future, rather than the resurrection hypothesis is true.

But let's assume that there is no naturalistic explanation of the resurrection narrative. We accept it in it's entirety, from tombs to the dead rising from the grave to meet their relatives as nothing more than an accurate historical account of what happened. Consequently, the only possible form of explanation will be supernatural in nature. But that alone wouldn't elevate the resurrection hypothesis as the most plausible explanation.

Paul’s claim, and from that that the assumption from apologetics that 500 people cannot hallucinate the same thing at the same at the same time is itself a naturalistic inference based on our understanding of the physical and naturalistic causation behind hallucination (again, something of no concern or consequence to those conditioned to view hallucinations as supernatural.) But such explanations are not needed if you accept the event as supernatural. We could therefore easily assume that there was a supernatural mass hallucination as opposed to a supernaturally induced physical resurrection.

What's the reason, other than faith, to believe one supernatural explanation over the other?
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Chips
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« Reply #85 on: June 26, 2020, 05:01:45 PM »

It's alright.
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Hindsight was 2020
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« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2020, 06:06:52 PM »

I’m a catholic so support 👍
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Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers
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« Reply #87 on: July 06, 2020, 04:56:16 PM »

That the supernatural and aliens and the astral plane and religion arent that different. The supernatural are terrestrial figures in our universe that have God like powers and responsible for growth of human species. That's why we need a star Trek space ship to reach them in other universes.  That's why reincarnation is such valued in today's philosophy, due to the supernatural can bring us back to life instead of a utopia society and resurrection of Christ.

Ancient Aliens that we see in our sleep will one day give us another life🤩🤩🤩
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Clarko95 📚💰📈
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« Reply #88 on: July 23, 2020, 01:20:12 PM »

Not really a fan of religions that say "Here is the one and only true prophet, if you do not embrace him unquestioningly in this one, singular chance you are given at life, you are doomed for all of eternity", so that's basically all Abrahamic religions.
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Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers
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« Reply #89 on: July 31, 2020, 11:13:38 AM »

As stated before, religion is based on philosophy blue and red divide runs political as well as religious. It's always been that way. Since 2000, since the Pope prophesied Christ return and it hasnt come, reincarnation is becoming a worldwide belief and resurrection is the aftermath of the asteroid hitting the Earth and destroying it.
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« Reply #90 on: September 10, 2020, 09:47:42 AM »

As stated before, religion is based on philosophy blue and red divide runs political as well as religious. It's always been that way.

It really hasn't.
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°Leprechaun
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« Reply #91 on: September 29, 2020, 07:44:07 AM »

Not really a fan of religions that say "Here is the one and only true prophet, if you do not embrace him unquestioningly in this one, singular chance you are given at life, you are doomed for all of eternity", so that's basically all Abrahamic religions.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #92 on: September 29, 2020, 01:20:11 PM »

resurrection is the aftermath of the asteroid hitting the Earth and destroying it.

I agree.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #93 on: October 14, 2020, 03:48:19 PM »

If the first formal account is 50AD, then it's not contemporaneous. There are a whole manner of reasons to doubt the narrative, but for a thought exercise let's grant some authority to what people said they saw, we still have no reason to favour a supernatural explanation over a natural explanation. Particularly from a people, generally conditioned to see supernatural explanations for all manner of things. Even the 'advanced' Romans. So you are making a concession for this one event and other events surrounding your belief system. You can accept the narrative as you describe it, but the hypothesis is based on belief alone.
By this logic, our sources on Alexander the Great, on Julius Caesar, on the Greco-Persian Wars are not contemporaneous and not acceptable. The overwhelming consensus among New Testament scholars is that the Gospels constitute reliable accounts about Jesus, comparable in reliability and dating to our sources on Alexander the Great.
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Dr. MB
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« Reply #94 on: June 21, 2021, 05:01:30 AM »

A 2,000-year-old fairy tale that should not be believed anymore.
Labeling something as a “fairy tale” doesn’t automatically mean it’s untrue. Folklore often has its origins in reality - or more accurately what people at the time interpreted as reality. Of course, over time it often becomes a game of telephone and things get changed or left out, but it’s not like all fairy tales were just poofed into existence by a magic wand.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2021, 12:32:53 AM »

Very low, considering that most denominations believe that me and most of my family will burn in Hell for all eternity.
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John Dule
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« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2021, 02:14:23 AM »

If the first formal account is 50AD, then it's not contemporaneous. There are a whole manner of reasons to doubt the narrative, but for a thought exercise let's grant some authority to what people said they saw, we still have no reason to favour a supernatural explanation over a natural explanation. Particularly from a people, generally conditioned to see supernatural explanations for all manner of things. Even the 'advanced' Romans. So you are making a concession for this one event and other events surrounding your belief system. You can accept the narrative as you describe it, but the hypothesis is based on belief alone.
By this logic, our sources on Alexander the Great, on Julius Caesar, on the Greco-Persian Wars are not contemporaneous and not acceptable. The overwhelming consensus among New Testament scholars is that the Gospels constitute reliable accounts about Jesus, comparable in reliability and dating to our sources on Alexander the Great.

Good analogy. Taking the Bible as literal truth is basically the same as believing all of the myths surrounding Alexander, like that his mother had prescient dreams of him conquering the world, or that Artemis herself attended his birth.
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #97 on: July 06, 2021, 03:24:40 PM »

I don't terribly often interact with serious Christians ("serious" here being defined as being at at least my level of religiosity), at least not in contexts where it's socially acceptable to discuss religion, but I always really enjoy it when I do, and I value the relationships I have with those people. In a sense this is true of religious people of any other religion, but when I talk to observant Jews about religion the conversation is centered on the concrete; Christians are more interested in the unseen.
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progressive85
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« Reply #98 on: July 08, 2021, 08:24:28 PM »

There are millions and millions of wonderful Christians (from all denominations, faith traditions) in this country who are making positive change in everyday life.

There are some though in leadership roles that really have no right to be where they are and preaching some things (such as the tired, old, anti-gay rhetoric) that really make it hard for people who want to learn more about Jesus' life and teachings.
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Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom
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« Reply #99 on: July 08, 2021, 11:16:18 PM »

What are you basing this opinion on? Is there any evidence?

There is plenty of evidence - for starters, look into the resurrection.
So... no evidence...

There is no direct physical evidence for the resurrection, but the same can be said of the vast majority of historical persons and events of the ancient world. The amount of historical evidence for the resurrection is actually quite high, with far more contemporaneous, preserved primary and secondary sources than for any other similar ancient event.

The vast majority of historical and textual scholars of the New Testament, Christian or otherwise, agree on the following points:

1) Jesus lived in Judea at the beginning of the first century, died at the hands of the Romans, and was buried in a tomb.
2) The tomb was subsequently found empty.
3) Many people claimed to have seen Jesus alive after this.
4) An account of the above three facts was consistently established no later than AD 50 when written in the Pauline epistles, almost certainly taken from an earlier oral tradition he heard when serving the Roman Empire to combat the nascent Christian sect. Paul personally met many people who claimed Jesus appeared to them post-death.
5) Despite losing their leader, becoming fugitives and outcasts, and having personally denied Jesus, the twelve disciples (and Paul) would evangelize from India to the furthest reaches to the Roman Empire in their lifetimes, and, to a man, choose martyrdom over recanting their claim of seeing a resurrected Jesus.

You can conceive of a few ways to explain some of these points, and perhaps all of them, without acknowledging the historicity of the resurrection, but doing so requires fairly contorted theorizing. For example, perhaps Jesus's body was stolen and an impostor appeared in his stead-- an impostor who was able to convince the disciples (who had spent years with Jesus) that he was who he claimed to be, who could show the scars of the crucifixion, and who would choose to do so knowing full well it would make him a massive enemy of the state for little reward.

Or perhaps Jesus faked his death and, despite massive blood loss and gaping wounds and zero medical care, rolled away (perhaps with help) a massive stone to escape some days later before recovering and appearing to the disciples and eventually abandoning everyone he knew and dying without any known burial location (why would the disciples carry on to their deaths claiming otherwise if they knew he simply lived on?).

Or perhaps it was some mass delusion or hallucination, occurring to over 500 people on numerous occasions, some of whom such as James were diehard skeptics. Or some mass lie was crafted, wherein hundreds of people chose to commit themselves to a non-provable, non-beneficial condition which made them enemies of the state and for which none ever recanted, even at execution. Or perhaps Paul made it all up much later, convinced hundreds to give up everything they had to spread a lie, forged the Gospels which all use differing writing styles and date to different decades, and did so all to lose his comfy position as a high-ranking Roman citizen, become ostracized, imprisoned, and executed, all without ever recanting.

Consider the denouement of Jesus's passion: the disciples see their leader killed, flee from Jerusalem having denied knowing Jesus, and hide as wanted criminals. Their Messiah was supposed to conquer Israel's enemies and rule as David did, not die as the lowest criminal. His death, according to Jewish law, showing the disciples that the Pharisees were correct and that Jesus had been a heretic all along, a man cursed by God. By Jewish belief, the only possible resurrection was that which would occur at the end of time; there was no pining for a resurrecting Messiah. They gave up everything they ever had for nothing.

Suppose they locked themselves in the upper room and decided to concoct a story that Jesus had risen. What would they gain? Who would believe them, fugitive heretics, and do so without might or evidence, especially when the Jewish people did not believe God acted in such a way as they would claim? It would've been a catastrophic plan.

Why not quietly slink back to their hometowns and hope to pick up where they left off? Or take on new identities and start over?

But instead, something happened. Something which convinced them to proclaim something no one wanted to hear, about a man no one wanted to know anymore, with great fervor, and at great personal danger to themselves. This something convinced the skeptics around them. Somehow it worked. It worked so well that it conquered the Roman Empire. It became the largest religion in the world, enduring for millennia with the same, unchanging message.

Is that evidence of the resurrection? I don't know. But the most parsimonious answer I've seen so far to the above evidence is that it happened.

As we all know, second-hand information from 2,000 years ago is always accurate, bigly.
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