Why Right Leaning Posters on this forum should not support Trump in 2020

[Frenchrepublican]

Largely agree. Barring a Bloomberg nomination and Presidency, I do think a Biden win in 2020 followed by a DeSantis win in 2024 is the best win for Conservatism overall. The risks of Trump 2020 into AOC 2024 are near-apocalyptic.

And this is why I will refuse to vote for Biden if he is the nominee.

Biden doesnt need Texas to win the General anyway. Just taking MI, PA , WI or AZ will do the job

That is not anywhere close to the point I was making. A Biden victory would be a Pyrrhic victory at best for Democrats and would almost definitely result in Republican blowouts in 2022 and 2024 with nothing to show for it other than getting Trump out of office.

A re-elected Trump is preferable to a useless one-term Biden presidency. The Supreme Court is already f—ked anyway, so there’s not much risk there

Dude, winning the presidency is basically always a kind of pyrrhic victory, look at 2016 ; it was a big win for republicans on the short term but look at what was the cost of this win, we got trounced in 2018 when we lost 41 seats in the House and our dream of a 60 seats Senate majority never happened   

[Frenchrepublican]

1. Socialism is worse. Even Biden supports a public option, which would be another disastrous entitlement program, bankrupt many insurers and hospitals, and throw tons of people off their healthcare plans (healthcare becomes less of a perk when it can also be gotten free, so businesses would stop offering it). Plus, it'd put too many lives into the hands of government and expand the role of government too much. People fail to talk about this, but even Biden would raise taxes by a trillion + more than Clinton would have, and I didn't vote for her either.

You're just making stuff up about Biden here.  Biden is not proposing to raise taxes by even as much as Clinton was, much less 1 trillion more than Clinton.  Meanwhile, a public option is not an entitlement, you are confusing it with single payer when they are two extremely different things.  People have to pay for the public option.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/biden-tax-plan-would-raise-3-2-trillion-by-targeting-the-rich-amazon-and-netflix

Versus

https://www.atr.org/full-list-hillary-s-planned-tax-hikes

$2.2 trillion more.

It's time to reduce the size of government, not expand by trillions of dollars. Even the Democratic "moderates" are no moderates at all.

Yea, it's really ridiculous to see some journalists calling people like Conor Lamb or Elissa Slotkin ''moderate'', these people are to the left of Obama and should be called social-democrat, not ''moderate''

[Frenchrepublican]

Largely agree. Barring a Bloomberg nomination and Presidency, I do think a Biden win in 2020 followed by a DeSantis win in 2024 is the best win for Conservatism overall. The risks of Trump 2020 into AOC 2024 are near-apocalyptic.

And this is why I will refuse to vote for Biden if he is the nominee.

Biden doesnt need Texas to win the General anyway. Just taking MI, PA , WI or AZ will do the job

That is not anywhere close to the point I was making. A Biden victory would be a Pyrrhic victory at best for Democrats and would almost definitely result in Republican blowouts in 2022 and 2024 with nothing to show for it other than getting Trump out of office.

A re-elected Trump is preferable to a useless one-term Biden presidency. The Supreme Court is already f—ked anyway, so there’s not much risk there

Dude, winning the presidency is basically always a kind of pyrrhic victory, look at 2016 ; it was a big win for republicans on the short term but look at what was the cost of this win, we got trounced in 2018 when we lost 41 seats in the House and our dream of a 60 seats Senate majority never happened   

If Kasich or even Marco were President, the Republicans would still have control of the House today.

Yeah, but Kasich would have been a horrible president, over the last 5 years he has gone from a center right republican to a total RINO (vetoed the Heartbeat bill, endorsed gun control measures, backed tax increases on fracking, became a pro-immigration hack, wants the USA to move back inside the Paris agreement)

[Frenchrepublican]

Have you ever heard of the boy who cried wolf?
Someday an actual socialist will run for president and no one will believe you all after years of fake-scares.

Literally Bernie.

Does he support worker control of the means of production?

More or less, yeah
https://www.baldwin.senate.gov/press-releases/reward-work-act-2019

[Frenchrepublican]

Largely agree. Barring a Bloomberg nomination and Presidency, I do think a Biden win in 2020 followed by a DeSantis win in 2024 is the best win for Conservatism overall. The risks of Trump 2020 into AOC 2024 are near-apocalyptic.

And this is why I will refuse to vote for Biden if he is the nominee.

Biden doesnt need Texas to win the General anyway. Just taking MI, PA , WI or AZ will do the job

That is not anywhere close to the point I was making. A Biden victory would be a Pyrrhic victory at best for Democrats and would almost definitely result in Republican blowouts in 2022 and 2024 with nothing to show for it other than getting Trump out of office.

A re-elected Trump is preferable to a useless one-term Biden presidency. The Supreme Court is already f—ked anyway, so there’s not much risk there

Dude, winning the presidency is basically always a kind of pyrrhic victory, look at 2016 ; it was a big win for republicans on the short term but look at what was the cost of this win, we got trounced in 2018 when we lost 41 seats in the House and our dream of a 60 seats Senate majority never happened  

If Kasich or even Marco were President, the Republicans would still have control of the House today.

Yeah, but Kasich would have been a horrible president, over the last 5 years he has gone from a center right republican to a total RINO (vetoed the Heartbeat bill, endorsed gun control measures, backed tax increases on fracking, became a pro-immigration hack, wants the USA to move back inside the Paris agreement)

Kasich also signed a 20 week ban , supporting defunding PP etc. the gun control measures he supports or still less pro gun control than the measures Reagan supported.


Kasich on other hand would have gotten a good healthcare bill passed , an even better tax bill , actual immigration reform and the nation would be in much much better shape today

The ''ante-2015'' Kasich was great, but after 2015 Kasich became a RINO and no, you're delusionnal if you think that he would have passed any good reform. On healthcare Kasich would have left the ACA mostly intact as he would have tried to play cozy with Pelosi and Schumer, on the immigration issue, he would have signed a amnesty bill (with the blessing of Koch Brothers) passed with the votes of democrats. As for the Tax bill we would have ended up with a 2001 kind of tax cut, the marginal income tax rate would have been lowered a bit, but under the pressure of democrats/medias Kasich would have not lowered the corporate tax rate because it would have been seen as a ''gift to the richs and wealthy''. Nah, Kasich would have been a waste of political capital

[Frenchrepublican]

1. Socialism is worse. Even Biden supports a public option, which would be another disastrous entitlement program, bankrupt many insurers and hospitals, and throw tons of people off their healthcare plans (healthcare becomes less of a perk when it can also be gotten free, so businesses would stop offering it). Plus, it'd put too many lives into the hands of government and expand the role of government too much. People fail to talk about this, but even Biden would raise taxes by a trillion + more than Clinton would have, and I didn't vote for her either.

You're just making stuff up about Biden here.  Biden is not proposing to raise taxes by even as much as Clinton was, much less 1 trillion more than Clinton.  Meanwhile, a public option is not an entitlement, you are confusing it with single payer when they are two extremely different things.  People have to pay for the public option.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/biden-tax-plan-would-raise-3-2-trillion-by-targeting-the-rich-amazon-and-netflix

Versus

https://www.atr.org/full-list-hillary-s-planned-tax-hikes

$2.2 trillion more.

It's time to reduce the size of government, not expand by trillions of dollars. Even the Democratic "moderates" are no moderates at all.

Yea, it's really ridiculous to see some journalists calling people like Conor Lamb or Elissa Slotkin ''moderate'', these people are to the left of Obama and should be called social-democrat, not ''moderate''

Yes, Emmanuel Macron is a Social Democrat. /s

Where did I said that Macron is a social democrat ? Macron is a centrist-neoliberal like Bloomberg, not a social democrat.

[Frenchrepublican]

1. Socialism is worse. Even Biden supports a public option, which would be another disastrous entitlement program, bankrupt many insurers and hospitals, and throw tons of people off their healthcare plans (healthcare becomes less of a perk when it can also be gotten free, so businesses would stop offering it). Plus, it'd put too many lives into the hands of government and expand the role of government too much. People fail to talk about this, but even Biden would raise taxes by a trillion + more than Clinton would have, and I didn't vote for her either.

You're just making stuff up about Biden here.  Biden is not proposing to raise taxes by even as much as Clinton was, much less 1 trillion more than Clinton.  Meanwhile, a public option is not an entitlement, you are confusing it with single payer when they are two extremely different things.  People have to pay for the public option.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/biden-tax-plan-would-raise-3-2-trillion-by-targeting-the-rich-amazon-and-netflix

Versus

https://www.atr.org/full-list-hillary-s-planned-tax-hikes

$2.2 trillion more.

It's time to reduce the size of government, not expand by trillions of dollars. Even the Democratic "moderates" are no moderates at all.

Yea, it's really ridiculous to see some journalists calling people like Conor Lamb or Elissa Slotkin ''moderate'', these people are to the left of Obama and should be called social-democrat, not ''moderate''

Yes, Emmanuel Macron is a Social Democrat. /s

Where did I said that Macron is a social democrat ? Macron is a centrist-neoliberal like Bloomberg, not a social democrat.

You said left of Obama and Obama is a Neo-Liberal and Macron is a Social Liberal, and he was part of the Socialist Party of France.

Yeah, Lamb/Slotkin are to the left of Obama, just look at the minimum wage issue, Obama never supported a 100% increase while both of them are backing a such increase. As for Macron, no you're wrong ; he is clearly to the right of Obama on most issues, look at some of the reforms he did :
-slashing the wealth tax by half
-lowering the corporate tax from 31% to 25%
-easing working laws
-the pension reform he is trying to do as of now is clearly not social by any standard
-lowering taxes on capital gains
Macron in the US would be close to Bloomberg from an ideological perspective

[Frenchrepublican]

This is basically a parody. A 80/20 Left/Right forum where the 20% right-wingers are already 15% NeverTrump and Kasich-type Republicans and 5% Trump-supporting. There is no need for this thread, you can already count genuine Trump-supporting Republicans on this forum on a hand.

We get it because you complain about it a lot. This forum is left-leaning, and you don't like that. If it bothers you so much, then leave.

I'm no fan of the OP, by the way.

I don't give a crap what distribution of ideology this forum is, my point stands, most Republicans on this forum do not support Trump and the number of regular posters that do is in the single digits. So this thread doesn't have very much use, and it's more of an echo-chamber than anything. That's what I was getting across.

And I don't complain about it a lot. You're completely pulling that out of your ass.

The thing is many Atlas republicans are generally very ''soft republicans'' ; look at the huge number of blue avatars who endorsed Edwards or Hood

[Frenchrepublican]

Right wingers always have historically chosen fascism even against the most milquetoast leftists (just see them voting for Nazi Bolsonaro over Blairite Haddad in Brazil). Not worth it, you'll get 5 of them to vote for Joe Biden and no one else.

"Nazi Bolsonaro" is a hilarious idea.

Yeah, he is probably the most '' Israel friendly '' Brazilian leader in decades

[Frenchrepublican]

Sad to see you slowly melting into the Borg.

Vote for guy who openly wants to crush the poor with taxes to force them to live like he wants them to instead! How can you take yourself seriously?

You yourself acknowledge the GOP winning a third term is gonna be almost impossible in 2024, and that 2022 map is an absolute disaster for the GOP and that doenst include factors like the 6 year itch and a very proabable recession. So what will happen is The GOP by 2024 may be wiped out to near 2009 levels and unlike in 2009-10 there will be almost no blue dogs left to stop a far left agenda.

It's unlikely that the GOP will lose control of the senate in 2020. So three words: Supreme. Court. Vacancy.
Filling the likely vacancy will help us more in the long run than the hurt that will result from communists controlling the House and squandering this power for a few more cycles.

Not to mention all the other judicial vacancies there are still left to be filled.

Republicans already have the court now. If Dems though get the trifecta in 2024 with 57+ senators(I would say likely if Trump wins) then single-payer likely passes, green new deal, massive just massive tax hikes will all become law which is a far bigger disaster

What the hell are you smoking? If Trump wins re-election, we are probably looking at having 52 - 54 R senators + Manchin & Sinema. No way in hell 9-11 senate seats flip in 2022 -- zero of those seats are in blue states. A few would flip, but your prediction is beyond insane.

There likely will be a recession in 2022 so if Trump wins and say Republicans have 52-53 seats they will lose : PA, WI, IA, GA, AZ(if McSally wins) for sure and OH probably too since recessions hit states like OH very badly compared to the rest of the nation  . So that means they lose 6 and that drops Republicans down to 47 seats. Then in 2024 they probably lose TX, FL and some other surprise race and that drops them to 44. Ok so thats 56-44 and Dems probably then may well wipe the filibuster out and other than Manchin, Sinema , Tester well that passes and with a far left president well then so many things will get passed.

Dude, you're far too pessmistic

Look

2020 if Trump wins again : republicans lose CO but take AL and maybe MI, by January 2021 the Senate is 53 to 54 R versus 46 to 47 D

2022 under Trump : republicans lose WI + PA + AZ and maybe NC / GA but there is no way democrats defeat Portman, he is a very strong incumbent and Ohio has moved so sharply to the right than democrats won't take the seat with him (we are no longer in 2006) ; same thing with Florida, Rubio is a very strong candidate and FL is generally imune to national waves (see 2018) ; IA is a bit more complicated but if Grassley retires I think that Reynolds would probably be able to keep the seat for us
So in the worst case scenario by January 2023 the Senate is 52 D versus 48 R, but it could also be 51 R versus 49 D

2024 : I disagree, republicans are unlikely to lose FL, I mean Rick Scott defeated a popular incumbent democratic senator in D wave ! Hard to see how FL democrats who have basically no bench anymore flip back the seat, then you have WV and MT which are clearly flippable provided republicans target these seats serioulsy this time and of course Ohio will also be winnable for republicans. The only truely vulnerable seat for us will be TX, especially if current trends in the DFW area continue.
So by January 2025 the Senate would be in the worst (realistic) case scenario 48 R vs 52 D (democrats lose WV but take TX) but it could also very well be 54 R versus 46 D (Republicans keep the senate in 2022 and flip WV/MT and Ohio in 2024) with the most likely scenario being a 52 R vs 48 D Senate

But I don't see how you end up with a 57/43 D Senate majority, even if (unfortunately) red state democrats are still a thing, their numbers is diminishing

[Frenchrepublican]

Also if Biden wins but the Republicans still control the senate the leftist agenda will be blocked and heck even if they have 51 senators it will be blocked cause Manchin and Sinema wont go along with the leftist agenda .

LMAO, Manchin and Sinema would never cast a decisive vote against their own party on any major legislation. You’re so naïve it’s almost cute.

Manchin won’t vote for bs like single payer , massive tax hikes , abolishing filibuster etc

Manchin is a populist, not a conservative.
It would not be very hard to convince him to vote for a wealthy tax or a 35% corporate tax rate, you have just to buy his vote by funding a big highway to nowhere in southern WV and the deal is done

[Frenchrepublican]

I think that the democratic party would be better described as ''statist'' than as ''fascist''

[Frenchrepublican]

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

These are the 14 characteristics of fascism. Tell me which of these describe Democrats.

While I reject his premise that most of these are fascist, but rather totalitarianism (which is both left-wing and right-wing), I will take a bite from your list based on the current state of the parties:

Democrats - #2, #3, #6, #13, #14 for sure.
Republicans - #1, #4,
Both - #7, #8, #9
Neither - #5, #10, #11, #12

How do the Democrats disdain human rights?

What scapegoats do the Democrats have?

How do the Democrats control the media

Are you serious ? CNN/NBC/MSNCB/Washington Post/NYT ??

By the way how many newspapers endorsed Clinton in 2016 ? Ho many endorsed Trump ?

What rampant cronyism and corruption occur under Democrats?

Hunter Biden ? Speaker Madigan ? Blagojevich ? Clinton Foundation ? Solyndra ?

What fraudulent elections have occurred under the Democrats?

[Frenchrepublican]

Also if Biden wins but the Republicans still control the senate the leftist agenda will be blocked and heck even if they have 51 senators it will be blocked cause Manchin and Sinema wont go along with the leftist agenda .

LMAO, Manchin and Sinema would never cast a decisive vote against their own party on any major legislation. You’re so naïve it’s almost cute.

Manchin won’t vote for bs like single payer , massive tax hikes , abolishing filibuster etc

Manchin is a populist, not a conservative.
It would not be very hard to convince him to vote for a wealthy tax or a 35% corporate tax rate, you have just to buy his vote by funding a big highway to nowhere in southern WV and the deal is done

Manchin is not a populist lol

Care to explain ? I mean it’s not like if he was some kind of ’’conservative, bow weevils southern democrat’’ . The dude voted against the ACA repeal and against the 2017 Tax reform, he is fairly friendly to labor groups.

[Frenchrepublican]

Also if Biden wins but the Republicans still control the senate the leftist agenda will be blocked and heck even if they have 51 senators it will be blocked cause Manchin and Sinema wont go along with the leftist agenda .

LMAO, Manchin and Sinema would never cast a decisive vote against their own party on any major legislation. You’re so naïve it’s almost cute.

Manchin won’t vote for bs like single payer , massive tax hikes , abolishing filibuster etc

Manchin is a populist, not a conservative.
It would not be very hard to convince him to vote for a wealthy tax or a 35% corporate tax rate, you have just to buy his vote by funding a big highway to nowhere in southern WV and the deal is done

Manchin is not a populist lol

Care to explain ? I mean it’s not like if he was some kind of ’’conservative, bow weevils southern democrat’’ . The dude voted against the ACA repeal and against the 2017 Tax reform, he is fairly friendly to labor groups.

McCain and Collins votes against the ACA repeal too , as that bill was horrible .

Also there is a huge difference between supporting ACA and Single Payer which Manchin has already ruled out of supporting and their is a huge difference between supporting pre 2016 tax code vs supporting type of tax code Warren or Bernie want

Well, yeah, but you don’t disprove my point, sure he is not a communist like Sanders or Warren, I don’t pretend otherwise, but not being a communist doesn’t mean you’re a centrist either.

Manchin is a populist and there are few doubt that he would happily vote to increase the corporate tax back to where it was in 2016, maybe you don’t care, but increasing the corporate tax by 50% is still a very left wing position, and let’s be clear, if you’re a conservative you should not count on this fraud to save your ass

[Frenchrepublican]

Also if Biden wins but the Republicans still control the senate the leftist agenda will be blocked and heck even if they have 51 senators it will be blocked cause Manchin and Sinema wont go along with the leftist agenda .

LMAO, Manchin and Sinema would never cast a decisive vote against their own party on any major legislation. You’re so naïve it’s almost cute.

Manchin won’t vote for bs like single payer , massive tax hikes , abolishing filibuster etc

Manchin is a populist, not a conservative.
It would not be very hard to convince him to vote for a wealthy tax or a 35% corporate tax rate, you have just to buy his vote by funding a big highway to nowhere in southern WV and the deal is done

Manchin is not a populist lol

Care to explain ? I mean it’s not like if he was some kind of ’’conservative, bow weevils southern democrat’’ . The dude voted against the ACA repeal and against the 2017 Tax reform, he is fairly friendly to labor groups.

McCain and Collins votes against the ACA repeal too , as that bill was horrible .

Also there is a huge difference between supporting ACA and Single Payer which Manchin has already ruled out of supporting and their is a huge difference between supporting pre 2016 tax code vs supporting type of tax code Warren or Bernie want

Well, yeah, but you don’t disprove my point, sure he is not a communist like Sanders or Warren, I don’t pretend otherwise, but not being a communist doesn’t mean you’re a centrist either.

Manchin is a populist and there are few doubt that he would happily vote to increase the corporate tax back to where it was in 2016, maybe you don’t care, but increasing the corporate tax by 50% is still a very left wing position, and let’s be clear, if you’re a conservative you should not count on this fraud to save your ass

I have a question would you take this result a Dem winning in 2020 but Republicans keeping the Senate. Thats the ideal scenario in my opinion because if that happens , none of the 2017 tax reform bill will be repealed

Well, yeah a such scenario would be okay, not great but still better than a D trifecta. I think we would be better off with Trump being reelected and republicans keeping the senate, but yeah your scenario would not be too bad either.