United Kingdom General Elections: December 12th, 2019

[Oryxslayer]

Ipsos-Mori for Scotland.

SNP 44% (+7)
CON 26% (-3)
LAB 16% (-11)
LD 11% (+4)
GRN 2% (+2)

Are the changes from 2017 or from the previous poll? And if the latter, when was it taken?

From the last election.

And I am calling out that Labour figure as too low.

I mean Scottish Labour has had a few bad months, and they somewhat backed a Yes vote when their base was previously unionist. In fact, I doubt the unionist parties really lost voters and more the SNP activated their base when compared to 2017, which was an election with low nationalist turnout. Remember, the youth is Yellow up there. On the other hand, their incumbents will benefit from unionist tactical voting, so, who knows what happens.

[Oryxslayer]

BBC supposedly has a clip of Gove and the rest of the Tory team turning up for the debate, but then it was the channel 4 dudes who told them they would accept nothing but Boris. This may turn... Trumpy, as Boris now can reorient back to his talking points about People vs Remain Elite/Parliament. *Shudders*

[God-Empress Stacey I of House Abrams]

So the Tories are threatening to use the tools of government to enact retribution against unsympathetic news outlets. Very cool stuff.

[afleitch]

So the Tories are threatening to use the tools of government to enact retribution against unsympathetic news outlets. Very cool stuff.

Oh we're here now. It's arrived.

i had hope the UK would escape it, but there we are.

[Blair]

BBC supposedly has a clip of Gove and the rest of the Tory team turning up for the debate, but then it was the channel 4 dudes who told them they would accept nothing but Boris. This may turn... Trumpy, as Boris now can reorient back to his talking points about People vs Remain Elite/Parliament. *Shudders*

Well the Tories were told days ago it was BOJO or no-one; so sending Gove was a stunt.

[Cassius]

Channel 4 is a public entity just like the BBC with a duty to be impartial, and the government can amend its constitution as it sees fit. The BBC would not pull a silly stunt such as this. It is frankly odd that Gove would be considered unacceptable to represent the Tories in a debate on the climate, given that he has handled issues relating to that for the past two years and thus is probably the best briefed person within the party for that role - unless of course, like all the other debates, it’s simply a Potemkin debate not meant to address the issues in a serious way.

Nobody watches Channel 4 anyway.

[God-Empress Stacey I of House Abrams]

Jesus F**king Christ, what a disgusting post. I didn't realize what a craven sycophant you were.

Channel 4 is a public entity just like the BBC with a duty to be impartial

Which it was. It set out an impartial rule about which party figures were invited to attend and which weren't, and reacted impartially to the figures that chosen not to attend.

and the government can amend its constitution as it sees fit.

Really, dude? Really? I'm sure you would totally be saying that if PM Corbyn was proposing the same thing.

The BBC would not pull a silly stunt such as this.

Good. Then people who dislike such "silly stunt" are free to watch the BBC instead.

It is frankly odd that Gove would be considered unacceptable to represent the Tories in a debate on the climate, given that he has handled issues relating to that for the past two years and thus is probably the best briefed person within the party for that role

If the rule is "party leaders only" then it's "party leaders only". If Corbyn is going to show up, there's no reason BoJo can't, regardless of anyone else's real or supposed qualifications.

- unless of course, like all the other debates, it’s simply a Potemkin debate not meant to address the issues in a serious way.

Irrelevant to the argument.

Nobody watches Channel 4 anyway.

Well then I guess political tampering into news channels is totally fine as long as they're smaller channels

[adma]

If these polls bear fruit, this is one lesson to my fellow Americans in this thread: BERNIE CANNOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES BE THE NOMINEE.

Lol. If anything Corbyn was inconsistently left-wing and is hurt far more by being centrist on the issue of Brexit than being left-wing on everything else.

And besides, when it comes to left-of-the-party odd ducks, Corbyn's more comparable to Dennis Kucinich than to Bernie.

[Cassius]

I mean, I’ve spent a lot of my life having to lick boots of one variety or another, so sycophancy has always become me.

Were I running the Tory campaign, I would have ignored it. In the grand scheme of things it’s bloody Channel 4, nobody watches it aside from Peep Show fans (not a particularly Tory friendly demographic I would’ve thought) waiting for an ageing Mitchell and Webb to roll in for series 168 of them pretending to still be 30 year olds. Making a fuss like this just creates another irritant for the press to rub into the Tory campaign.

Nonetheless, the fact is, the government, whether it be a Tory government or a Labour government, is entitled to set the parameters for Channel 4. There are plenty of other places for liberals and the left to go and get their kicks (the Guardian, the Independent, the New Statesman, that constellation of dubious “independent” media sites like Novara and many, many more). Were the Tories to clamp down on Channel 4’s ability to pose at ‘telling truth to power’ (retch), I find it highly unlikely that it would be the prelude to Gleichschaltung 2 Electric Boogaloo.

If Channel 4 were interested in running a serious debate on the environment, I doubt they would set it up as a debate between seven people with only an hour (about eight and a half minutes of speaking time per person!) for running time, which is what they did. Johnson was right to treat it with the contempt it deserved and was fairly generous in sending along Gove to participate at all.

[God-Empress Stacey I of House Abrams]

The impartiality of state media is premised on governments' commitments not to tamper with their content for political purposes. I'm genuinely baffled that I have to explain that to you. The fact that your only retorts are "well, they legally can do that" and "well, it's no big deal, there are other news sources" shows that you either know that and are being intellectually dishonest, or legitimately just don't value the idea of having state news outlets that aren't beholden to the government of the day. Which, fine, I guess, but just be open about it.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

So the Tories are threatening to use the tools of government to enact retribution against unsympathetic news outlets. Very cool stuff.

And yet the media has overall given Johnson much better coverage than Corbyn.

[urutzizu]

Tbh. even for those that watched the Debate, it seemed to me at times as if the Ice Sculptures were actually doing less bad then some of the Humans.

[CumbrianLeftie]

So the Tories are threatening to use the tools of government to enact retribution against unsympathetic news outlets. Very cool stuff.

And yet the media has overall given Johnson much better coverage than Corbyn.

A large number of them are bootlickers, unfortunately.

[Lord Halifax]

"Boris Johnson has been accused of pushing racial stereotypes over a newly-unearthed column written during his time as editor of the Spectator in which he said young people had “an almost Nigerian interest in money”."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/28/johnson-accused-of-racial-stereotyping-with-view-on-nigerians

Might cost the Tories that all-important Nigerian vote.

[Blair]

Yes; the baffling thing about the last two years has been the willingness of the Tory Party to rip up conventions that a Corbyn Government could exploit when nationalising Greggs (ignoring humble address motions, skipping liason committes, ignoring contempt motions, threatening media licenses, dissolving Parliament etc etc)

I mean, I’ve spent a lot of my life having to lick boots of one variety or another, so sycophancy has always become me.

Were I running the Tory campaign, I would have ignored it. In the grand scheme of things it’s bloody Channel 4, nobody watches it aside from Peep Show fans (not a particularly Tory friendly demographic I would’ve thought) waiting for an ageing Mitchell and Webb to roll in for series 168 of them pretending to still be 30 year olds. Making a fuss like this just creates another irritant for the press to rub into the Tory campaign.

Nonetheless, the fact is, the government, whether it be a Tory government or a Labour government, is entitled to set the parameters for Channel 4. There are plenty of other places for liberals and the left to go and get their kicks (the Guardian, the Independent, the New Statesman, that constellation of dubious “independent” media sites like Novara and many, many more). Were the Tories to clamp down on Channel 4’s ability to pose at ‘telling truth to power’ (retch), I find it highly unlikely that it would be the prelude to Gleichschaltung 2 Electric Boogaloo.

If Channel 4 were interested in running a serious debate on the environment, I doubt they would set it up as a debate between seven people with only an hour (about eight and a half minutes of speaking time per person!) for running time, which is what they did. Johnson was right to treat it with the contempt it deserved and was fairly generous in sending along Gove to participate at all.

None of these are TV channels, but you know this. Your post is much like watching Cleverly or Burgon going out to bat; pretty hilarious in showing just what defences have to be wheeled out when something relatively stupid has been done.

I'm not complaining though- the hits on Bojo for skipping are stronger than a 30 second clip of him getting attacked for fossil fuel donations or whatever low grade stuff would have got thrown at him. 

[CumbrianLeftie]

Johnson apparently not having an easy time of it on normally supportive LBC this morning.

[afleitch]

Incident at London Bridge.

[CumbrianLeftie]

Could have been worse, it appears.

EDIT: posted before it became clear there were two fatalities

[Oryxslayer]

BoJo's warning Trump not to make brash statements about the election when he comes to the Nato summit. BoJo, after all, doesn't want to be seen as Trump's mini-me: the minority of trump approvers in the UK are likely already voting Con/Brexit/DUP.

There's also a 7 way debate in Cardiff tonight, but BoJo, Corbyn, and Farage are sending replacements. I get the feeling that this debate may have a lot of security related questions after what happened today.

[Cinemark]

This is probably more out of ignorance than anything else, but I was under the impression the Tories were pretty climate friendly when compared to other center right and right wing parties in the west?

[Silent Hunter]

This is probably more out of ignorance than anything else, but I was under the impression the Tories were pretty climate friendly when compared to other center right and right wing parties in the west?

Well, they have cut back some rail electrification programmes lately.

[Oryxslayer]

This is probably more out of ignorance than anything else, but I was under the impression the Tories were pretty climate friendly when compared to other center right and right wing parties in the west?

Depends on who you are comparing the  Conservatives to. If you are comparing them to other deep-blue Right-wingers around the globe, then the Tories are more ecologically friendly than the rest. This is because they have historically faced Green party and Lib-Dem assaults in their southern shires based on ecological issues. It's mostly a bottom up effect from various council-level challenges which influences the MPs positions, even though their seats are safe. Sometimes this is more local in focus (don't cut down the trees on 'x' street, preserve the Greenbelt culture of our town), and sometimes this is more Global (recycling bins and programs to reduce  litter, insulating homes to lower electricity usage). However, if you are comparing to other UK parties, the Tories are the most ecologically right-wing party that actually has a chance and winning seats in the main 632.

[CumbrianLeftie]

There's also a 7 way debate in Cardiff tonight, but BoJo, Corbyn, and Farage are sending replacements. I get the feeling that this debate may have a lot of security related questions after what happened today.

There was some reference to it, but it far from swamped the debate.

[EastAnglianLefty]

The Tories are generally the party of the motorist - they've kept fuel duty frozen whereas it went up sharply under Labour; they tend to be the keenest supporters of road upgrades and they're usually the least interested party in public transport.

We don't have a lot of carbon-intensive heavy industry, but campaigns against onshore wind turbines and solar farms are usually Conservative front groups and they were the only people who were even vaguely keen on fracking.

They don't go in for much in the way of global warning denial (although there is a bit of that on their fringes) but they're certainly the option of choice for those who prioritise things remaining as they are over climate mitigation efforts.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Campaigning has been suspended because of the terrorist attack.

Also, the first of the weekend poll glut has arrived. Panelbase: Con 42, Lab 34, LDem 13, BP 4, Greens 3

^{Plus two to Labour, plus one for the Greens and Brexit Party, minus one for the LibDems. Implied swing of 3pts to Con since 2017. Fieldwork on the 27th and 28th.}