Bernie Sanders 2020 campaign megathread v2 (pg 77 - declares victory in Iowa)

[James Monroe]

Do tell me, what appeal does the squad think they have in Iowa?

Do tell me, what appeal does Joe Biden have anywhere?

Oh, man, I wish sometimes Biden would win just to see people eating their words in November again.

Biden has the greatest shot at beating Trump in the November election. I've been critical of the man's flaws but given Warren campaign has started to collapse in the last few weeks, when she drops out there isn't a more qualified candidate to challenge against Trump than Barack Obama Vice President.


Bernie polls abysmal with core voter constituents  and the blocs that do love him don't turned out in numbers like for other candidates.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I think I made a joke poll a while back about how the Democrats should nominate Ted Cruz for president.  After all, vote blue no matter who, and Cruz will bring in lots of Republicans and Independents who otherwise wouldn't have voted Dem.  People didn't like it and the mods deleted it.

But now we see that exact argument being made about Sanders and how he's going to bring in the Joe Rogan audience, or Cenk and his band of misogynist incels, or Glenn Greenwald and his club of latter-day Jane Fondas, or Jill Stein and the green party saboteurs.  Heck, why not shoot for an Alex Jones endorsement so you can bring in the redneck conspiracy theorist vote?

"He's going to bring in voters who won't vote for Biden!"
"Isn't beating Trump the most important thing?"
"I can't wait until Biden loses in November so the Dems can see just how badly they need us"

If all I cared about was beating Trump and nothing else, I'd nominate Ted Cruz.

We care about a lot more than just beating Trump.  We care about the character of the next president.  We care about the things he will do with power once he obtains it.  We care about the character of the party, the leader who takes it over and the movement he brings with him.  While I'd still vote for Sanders, what's the point of beating Trump if I have to sacrifice my own party to the same sorts of knuckleheads to do it?  I'd rather have an N% chance of beating Trump with a good, decent man who leads with integrity and character, than an N+10% chance of beating Trump with someone who wants to burn down 70% of the Democratic Party on his way there.

Translation: I'd rather lose with a moderate than win with a leftist.

Just stop obfuscating and say you won't vote for Sanders no matter what.

That's a terrible translation.  There's shades of grey in everything.

What if I told you we could nominate Joe Lieberman for a 75% chance of winning, or nominate Sanders for a 65% chance?  Would you "rather lose with a leftist than win with a conservadem"?

[Adam Griffin]

My bold prediction: when Sanders will become president, moderates and centrists Democrats will form third party - something like Liberal Democrats in UK. It becomes too much for them, and for me to call themselves "Democrat" in 2020. For real.

Will never happen, due to the litany of state-level and federal laws and rules that codify the two-party system in America following the Populist Era. In America, you pick one side or another: that's why there are 50 disparate coalitions hunkered in the Democratic Party - none of which can do a goddamn thing for themselves on their own politically. It's akin to the Archer quote: "I'll just scrape all these previous mishaps into a pile and knit a onesie for it".

After all, what does somebody like me have in common with some ancient broad who gets liquored up all day and makes $200k per year? Remember: it's the neolibs that have an aversion to true intersectionality - because it undermines their trans-generational political & economic dominance.

[GoTfan]

I think I made a joke poll a while back about how the Democrats should nominate Ted Cruz for president.  After all, vote blue no matter who, and Cruz will bring in lots of Republicans and Independents who otherwise wouldn't have voted Dem.  People didn't like it and the mods deleted it.

But now we see that exact argument being made about Sanders and how he's going to bring in the Joe Rogan audience, or Cenk and his band of misogynist incels, or Glenn Greenwald and his club of latter-day Jane Fondas, or Jill Stein and the green party saboteurs.  Heck, why not shoot for an Alex Jones endorsement so you can bring in the redneck conspiracy theorist vote?

"He's going to bring in voters who won't vote for Biden!"
"Isn't beating Trump the most important thing?"
"I can't wait until Biden loses in November so the Dems can see just how badly they need us"

If all I cared about was beating Trump and nothing else, I'd nominate Ted Cruz.

We care about a lot more than just beating Trump.  We care about the character of the next president.  We care about the things he will do with power once he obtains it.  We care about the character of the party, the leader who takes it over and the movement he brings with him.  While I'd still vote for Sanders, what's the point of beating Trump if I have to sacrifice my own party to the same sorts of knuckleheads to do it?  I'd rather have an N% chance of beating Trump with a good, decent man who leads with integrity and character, than an N+10% chance of beating Trump with someone who wants to burn down 70% of the Democratic Party on his way there.

Translation: I'd rather lose with a moderate than win with a leftist.

Just stop obfuscating and say you won't vote for Sanders no matter what.

That's a terrible translation.  There's shades of grey in everything.

What if I told you we could nominate Joe Lieberman for a 75% chance of winning, or nominate Sanders for a 65% chance?  Would you "rather lose with a leftist than win with a conservadem"?

Lieberman hasn't been relevant since he dive-bombed Obamacare.

It's pretty clear you hate Sanders more deeply than anyone else on the planet. One does not have to look hard at any of your posts to get that.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Lieberman hasn't been relevant since he dive-bombed Obamacare.

It's pretty clear you hate Sanders more deeply than anyone else on the planet. One does not have to look hard at any of your posts to get that.

Drive-by cheap-shot and then dodging the question.  Oh Atlas, never change.

There are plenty of worse people in this world than Sanders but on a political forum about the 2020 presidential election, Sanders and his crew are the only people I really dislike.  Everyone else is pretty much fine, even Warren.  If you want to see me post about Trump, head on over to U.S. General Discussion.

[Adam Griffin]

I think I made a joke poll a while back about how the Democrats should nominate Ted Cruz for president.  After all, vote blue no matter who, and Cruz will bring in lots of Republicans and Independents who otherwise wouldn't have voted Dem.  People didn't like it and the mods deleted it.

But now we see that exact argument being made about Sanders and how he's going to bring in the Joe Rogan audience, or Cenk and his band of misogynist incels, or Glenn Greenwald and his club of latter-day Jane Fondas, or Jill Stein and the green party saboteurs.  Heck, why not shoot for an Alex Jones endorsement so you can bring in the redneck conspiracy theorist vote?

"He's going to bring in voters who won't vote for Biden!"
"Isn't beating Trump the most important thing?"
"I can't wait until Biden loses in November so the Dems can see just how badly they need us"

If all I cared about was beating Trump and nothing else, I'd nominate Ted Cruz.

We care about a lot more than just beating Trump.  We care about the character of the next president.  We care about the things he will do with power once he obtains it.  We care about the character of the party, the leader who takes it over and the movement he brings with him.  While I'd still vote for Sanders, what's the point of beating Trump if I have to sacrifice my own party to the same sorts of knuckleheads to do it?  I'd rather have an N% chance of beating Trump with a good, decent man who leads with integrity and character, than an N+10% chance of beating Trump with someone who wants to burn down 70% of the Democratic Party on his way there.

Translation: I'd rather lose with a moderate than win with a leftist.

Just stop obfuscating and say you won't vote for Sanders no matter what.

That's a terrible translation.  There's shades of grey in everything.

What if I told you we could nominate Joe Lieberman for a 75% chance of winning, or nominate Sanders for a 65% chance?  Would you "rather lose with a leftist than win with a conservadem"?

Lieberman hasn't been relevant since he dive-bombed Obamacare.

It's pretty clear you hate Sanders more deeply than anyone else on the planet. One does not have to look hard at any of your posts to get that.

Not to keep arguing, but I gotta say: you're wrong here. The person who hates Sanders the most is definitely a middle-aged wealthy white woman on Twitter.

[GoTfan]

Lieberman hasn't been relevant since he dive-bombed Obamacare.

It's pretty clear you hate Sanders more deeply than anyone else on the planet. One does not have to look hard at any of your posts to get that.

Drive-by cheap-shot and then dodging the question.  Oh Atlas, never change.

There are plenty of worse people in this world than Sanders but on a political forum about the 2020 presidential election, Sanders and his crew are the only people I really dislike.  Everyone else is pretty much fine, even Warren.  If you want to see me post about Trump, head on over to U.S. General Discussion.

You don't just 'dislike' him though. It's plainly obvious you hate him.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Lieberman hasn't been relevant since he dive-bombed Obamacare.

It's pretty clear you hate Sanders more deeply than anyone else on the planet. One does not have to look hard at any of your posts to get that.

Drive-by cheap-shot and then dodging the question.  Oh Atlas, never change.

There are plenty of worse people in this world than Sanders but on a political forum about the 2020 presidential election, Sanders and his crew are the only people I really dislike.  Everyone else is pretty much fine, even Warren.  If you want to see me post about Trump, head on over to U.S. General Discussion.

You don't just 'dislike' him though. It's plainly obvious you hate him.

I literally won't care about him at all once he stops trying to take over my party.  If he retired to his lakehouse tomorrow and I never had to hear again about how awful and evil the Democrats are and how I want poor people to die, I wouldn't think about him at all.

If you go back to September/October when Warren was leading and Sanders was fading into irrelevance, I barely posted about him at all.  My posts were about Warren, and even then only to critique her specific policies and her populist rhetoric.  But then I actually think Sanders is a bad person where I don't think that about Warren.

[GoTfan]

Lieberman hasn't been relevant since he dive-bombed Obamacare.

It's pretty clear you hate Sanders more deeply than anyone else on the planet. One does not have to look hard at any of your posts to get that.

Drive-by cheap-shot and then dodging the question.  Oh Atlas, never change.

There are plenty of worse people in this world than Sanders but on a political forum about the 2020 presidential election, Sanders and his crew are the only people I really dislike.  Everyone else is pretty much fine, even Warren.  If you want to see me post about Trump, head on over to U.S. General Discussion.

You don't just 'dislike' him though. It's plainly obvious you hate him.

I literally won't care about him at all once he stops trying to take over my party.  If he retired to his lakehouse tomorrow and I never had to hear again about how awful and evil the Democrats are and how I want poor people to die, I wouldn't think about him at all.

How very Orwellian. "You are not allowed to criticise the Party."

[TheLaRocca]

Lieberman hasn't been relevant since he dive-bombed Obamacare.

It's pretty clear you hate Sanders more deeply than anyone else on the planet. One does not have to look hard at any of your posts to get that.

Drive-by cheap-shot and then dodging the question.  Oh Atlas, never change.

There are plenty of worse people in this world than Sanders but on a political forum about the 2020 presidential election, Sanders and his crew are the only people I really dislike.  Everyone else is pretty much fine, even Warren.  If you want to see me post about Trump, head on over to U.S. General Discussion.

You don't just 'dislike' him though. It's plainly obvious you hate him.

I literally won't care about him at all once he stops trying to take over my party.  If he retired to his lakehouse tomorrow and I never had to hear again about how awful and evil the Democrats are and how I want poor people to die, I wouldn't think about him at all.

Majority of Young PoC and Whites under 30 support Bernie lmao. I guess "there not Democrats" now.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Lieberman hasn't been relevant since he dive-bombed Obamacare.

It's pretty clear you hate Sanders more deeply than anyone else on the planet. One does not have to look hard at any of your posts to get that.

Drive-by cheap-shot and then dodging the question.  Oh Atlas, never change.

There are plenty of worse people in this world than Sanders but on a political forum about the 2020 presidential election, Sanders and his crew are the only people I really dislike.  Everyone else is pretty much fine, even Warren.  If you want to see me post about Trump, head on over to U.S. General Discussion.

You don't just 'dislike' him though. It's plainly obvious you hate him.

I literally won't care about him at all once he stops trying to take over my party.  If he retired to his lakehouse tomorrow and I never had to hear again about how awful and evil the Democrats are and how I want poor people to die, I wouldn't think about him at all.

How very Orwellian. "You are not allowed to criticise the Party."

He's allowed to do whatever he wants, just like I'm allowed to think he's a complete asshole for what he says and what he does.

This fishing around for strawmen is really lame.

[GoTfan]

Lieberman hasn't been relevant since he dive-bombed Obamacare.

It's pretty clear you hate Sanders more deeply than anyone else on the planet. One does not have to look hard at any of your posts to get that.

Drive-by cheap-shot and then dodging the question.  Oh Atlas, never change.

There are plenty of worse people in this world than Sanders but on a political forum about the 2020 presidential election, Sanders and his crew are the only people I really dislike.  Everyone else is pretty much fine, even Warren.  If you want to see me post about Trump, head on over to U.S. General Discussion.

You don't just 'dislike' him though. It's plainly obvious you hate him.

I literally won't care about him at all once he stops trying to take over my party.  If he retired to his lakehouse tomorrow and I never had to hear again about how awful and evil the Democrats are and how I want poor people to die, I wouldn't think about him at all.

How very Orwellian. "You are not allowed to criticise the Party."

He's allowed to do whatever he wants, just like I'm allowed to think he's a complete asshole for what he says and what he does.

This fishing around for strawmen is really lame.

Okay then, to use your logic he's allowed to run in the Democratic primary. Can we agree on that?

[Devout Centrist]

If he retired to his lakehouse tomorrow and I never had to hear again about how awful and evil the Democrats are

You don't seem to get it. The Party has been horribly mismanaged by a cavalcade of shameless hacks and incompetents for over a decade. Years and years of neglect have led us to abysmal results across the country. The Party apparatus needs serious overhauls or we will continue to see our hopes dashed year after year.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Lieberman hasn't been relevant since he dive-bombed Obamacare.

It's pretty clear you hate Sanders more deeply than anyone else on the planet. One does not have to look hard at any of your posts to get that.

Drive-by cheap-shot and then dodging the question.  Oh Atlas, never change.

There are plenty of worse people in this world than Sanders but on a political forum about the 2020 presidential election, Sanders and his crew are the only people I really dislike.  Everyone else is pretty much fine, even Warren.  If you want to see me post about Trump, head on over to U.S. General Discussion.

You don't just 'dislike' him though. It's plainly obvious you hate him.

I literally won't care about him at all once he stops trying to take over my party.  If he retired to his lakehouse tomorrow and I never had to hear again about how awful and evil the Democrats are and how I want poor people to die, I wouldn't think about him at all.

How very Orwellian. "You are not allowed to criticise the Party."

He's allowed to do whatever he wants, just like I'm allowed to think he's a complete asshole for what he says and what he does.

This fishing around for strawmen is really lame.

Okay then, to use your logic he's allowed to run in the Democratic primary. Can we agree on that?

Whoever said he shouldn't be allowed to run in the Democratic primary?  Personally I think the party should make more requirements to run (such as legally binding competitors to not run on another ticket; that means you Bloomberg and Gabbard) but that's not what we're talking about.

You keep thinking I want to ban him from doing certain things or not allow him to do certain things.  I've never said that.  I think there's a series of thresholds that he's crossed that I consider to be dirty, unethical, divisive, destructive, selfish and counter-productive.  And I think he knows that, and forges ahead anyway, because he loathes the Democratic Party and cares more about his own image and ambitions than he does about defeating Donald Trump or actually getting policies passed.

[GeneralMacArthur]

If he retired to his lakehouse tomorrow and I never had to hear again about how awful and evil the Democrats are

You don't seem to get it. The Party has been horribly mismanaged by a cavalcade of shameless hacks and incompetents for over a decade. Years and years of neglect have led us to abysmal results across the country. The Party apparatus needs serious overhauls or we will continue to see our hopes dashed year after year.

We won in 2006, 2008, 2012, and 2018.  We lost in 2010, 2014, and 2016.  That's a 4-3 record for the last 7 cycles including the most recent one.  Do I think the party needs to make lots of improvements?  Absolutely yes.  I think DWS was one of the worst party chairs in living memory.  I think Obama neglected party infrastructure and lost touch with the fundamentals of on-the-ground retail politics.  I think Democrats have repeatedly bound their hands and shot themselves in the foot on issues where Republicans continue to take political advantage, especially data mining and social media.

None of these problems will be solved by nominating a self-proclaimed socialist who aggressively espouses widely-unpopular policies, lies about the party's priorities and accomplishments, and condemns the entire party and its entire history leading up to his political awakening.

[Rookie Yinzer]

I really don't care. People were expecting Hillary Clinton to be shown love at a Bernie Sanders rally by a Bernie Sanders surrogate? These people hate the Democratic Party and think Obama is the worse of the two presidents of the 2010's. It is what it is.

That’s not true and completely unfair. I’m sick of this “Bernie supporters like Trump” talking point because it’s unbelievably offensive. Are there idiots like Matt Tabibi or Glenn Greenwald who are like that? Yeah but that’s like 2% of his base and other Bernie supporters like me call them out on that garbage all the time

I just want to add I completely agree with this. Let's not get blinded by candidate loyalty, to the point of accusing others' supporters of liking Trump, because that's just an offensive denial of reality. Swing by the impeachment thread and you'll see all democrats, including Hindsight is 2020 and MacArthur, vigorously opposed to yesterday's injustice.

And that’s fine, and we can also acknowledge that known racist and transphobe Joe Rogan is more welcome in Bernie’s coalition than our nation’s first Black President.

[2016]

If Sanders wins Iowa he is going to win the Nomination cuz I don't think he'll lose New Hampshire.

[James Monroe]

If Sanders wins Iowa he is going to win the Nomination cuz I don't think he'll lose New Hampshire.

He'll lose in Super Tuesday states because he just can't appeal to a broad number of voters. Black voters in particular are his Kryptonite.

[Mehmentum]

If he retired to his lakehouse tomorrow and I never had to hear again about how awful and evil the Democrats are

You don't seem to get it. The Party has been horribly mismanaged by a cavalcade of shameless hacks and incompetents for over a decade. Years and years of neglect have led us to abysmal results across the country. The Party apparatus needs serious overhauls or we will continue to see our hopes dashed year after year.

Yes, this.  The most striking example of this, I think, is what happened after 2008.  Democrats had control of all branches of government and 60 Senate seats- that was our chance to fulfill the promise of Obama's candidacy, to fundamentally change politics, rebalance the economic system, and so much more.  And don't get me wrong, the legislation that they passed was important, but looking back a decade later, can anyone look at how broken our country is now and say that this wasn't a golden opportunity squandered?  Now we're just hoping and praying that we can scrape together 50 Senate eats so we can replace Ginsburg and- Manchin and Sinema willing- pass some modest improvements through reconciliation.

Half of that, of course, was the Republicans going off the deep end, completely abandoning any attempt at good faith governing and prioritizing knifing Obama over trying to help people.  But a lot of it also was a Democratic party apparatus that was simply incapable of doing what was needed of it.

[John Dule]

I have no idea what the Democratic Party did to earn the unconditional loyalty of some people on this site. You can think it's the best of the two major parties in the US (as I do) without defending every single thing the establishment DNC does, you know. Parties aren't ideological. If 75% of this country endorsed National Socialism, then the Democrats would be tripping over each other to win the all-important Nazi vote. Stop treating this institution like it's your best friend, for God's sake. From the way people on here behave, they're either completely delusional or Hillary Clinton is holding their family in an undisclosed location somewhere.

[YE]

I have no idea what the Democratic Party did to earn the unconditional loyalty of some people on this site. You can think it's the best of the two major parties in the US (as I do) without defending every single thing the establishment DNC does, you know. Parties aren't ideological. If 75% of this country endorsed National Socialism, then the Democrats would be tripping over each other to win the all-important Nazi vote. Stop treating this institution like it's your best friend, for God's sake. From the way people on here behave, they're either completely delusional or Hillary Clinton is holding their family in an undisclosed location somewhere.

I'll never understand the Dem fetish with Hilary Clinton either but FWIW if you think Atlas is bad, DU and DKE are x1000 worse in terms of the party hackery.

[James Monroe]

I have no idea what the Democratic Party did to earn the unconditional loyalty of some people on this site. You can think it's the best of the two major parties in the US (as I do) without defending every single thing the establishment DNC does, you know. Parties aren't ideological. If 75% of this country endorsed National Socialism, then the Democrats would be tripping over each other to win the all-important Nazi vote. Stop treating this institution like it's your best friend, for God's sake. From the way people on here behave, they're either completely delusional or Hillary Clinton is holding their family in an undisclosed location somewhere.

You have no understanding of what makes the Democratic Party such a sacred institution in our books. As a proud Democrat let me tell you why we remain loyal to this political party no matter the obstacles.


Throughout this nation history this is the party that has fought for the rights of countless groups who have been disaffected in society. Civil rights for African Americans was a struggle when half of the party was controlled by the Dixiecrats in the South, that didn't diminish the achievements of President's Truman, Kennedy and Johnson for advancing the rights of this group. Woodrow Wilson was a vile man in many ways, what he did to support and sign the nineteenth amendment to the Constitution is admirable and courageous. President Obama was slow to progress on supporting gay marriage, just as many Democrats did, including Independent Saint Bernard, when he announce that he'll support their rights in 2012 the history books were written. New Deal and Great Society have uplifted more people out of poverty than any Milton Friedman mumble jumble right-wing polices have ever achieved of doing. At the end of the day the Democratic Party has stood by for many Americans no matter their disadvantaged in life.


I am a proud Democrat card carrying member for life.

[DrScholl]

The party committees don't decide that fate of elections that and are mostly for raising money. An election like 2010 can't much be prevented because the electorate is volatile in midterms. You cannot guarantee that your party will be in power 100% of the time and no one can make that happen, not Sanders, not Biden, not Warren or anyone else.

Second, it's state and local parties that are a lot more effective at building infrastructure. What you saw happen in California in 2018 was because of a lot of good organization and coordination between the state party and county parties. People from my county were signing up to go to Orange County to canvass for candidates there. If you want better results you need to get involved in local parties.

[GeneralMacArthur]

If he retired to his lakehouse tomorrow and I never had to hear again about how awful and evil the Democrats are

You don't seem to get it. The Party has been horribly mismanaged by a cavalcade of shameless hacks and incompetents for over a decade. Years and years of neglect have led us to abysmal results across the country. The Party apparatus needs serious overhauls or we will continue to see our hopes dashed year after year.

Yes, this.  The most striking example of this, I think, is what happened after 2008.  Democrats had control of all branches of government and 60 Senate seats- that was our chance to fulfill the promise of Obama's candidacy, to fundamentally change politics, rebalance the economic system, and so much more.  And don't get me wrong, the legislation that they passed was important, but looking back a decade later, can anyone look at how broken our country is now and say that this wasn't a golden opportunity squandered?  Now we're just hoping and praying that we can scrape together 50 Senate eats so we can replace Ginsburg and- Manchin and Sinema willing- pass some modest improvements through reconciliation.

Half of that, of course, was the Republicans going off the deep end, completely abandoning any attempt at good faith governing and prioritizing knifing Obama over trying to help people.  But a lot of it also was a Democratic party apparatus that was simply incapable of doing what was needed of it.

The things we did in 2008 (and 2006-08, don't forget) were the things that, at the time, seemed most important.  Recovering from the recession and attempting to fix it with Dodd-Frank.  Following the recommendations of the 9/11 commission while banning torture and ending the Iraq War.  A series of crackdowns on corrupt practices around lobbying and pork-barrel legislation.  The Lily Ledbetter fair pay act.  Repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell.  Several major climate change programs that had a substantial impact.  And most famously, Obamacare.  Pelosi's House passed cap-and-trade and a public option.  I would consider immigration reform to be the major failure of that period.

In hindsight, if we could go back to 2008 knowing what 2020 would bring, would we shuffle the priorities?  Of course.  But the outlook at the end of the Bush Administration was that these were our priorities, and we took huge steps to fix them.  Nobody was predicting in 2008 that in just 8 years a president would come along who would wage war on the constitution itself.

When people like John Dule ask why I value the party so much, this is why.  Those landmark pieces of legislation we passed in 2006-2008 that fundamentally changed the country and did so much to get us where we are today, in addition to the many accomplishments of the Obama administration.  This is what I want it to mean to be a Democrat.  I want to associate myself with a group of people who share those values and goals.  In 2008, the Democratic Party provided that for me.  Now, the part of it represented by Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton still does, but it's under siege by a group of people who want to take over the party, sacrifice all of that, and completely change what it means to be a Democrat.  A group of people who lie to young voters that the Democratic Party is a failure that never accomplished anything, that we're a party of warmongers and corrupt wall street puppets who have never stood up for poor people or tried to fix the climate or achieve universal health care.

[Senator Spark]

They are still trying to rob Bernie of the nomination. Why make the rules change in the first place if you're just going to change it back? Was all for show I guess.