Do you think this country would be better off without suburbs?

[Everett]

BRTD supports terrorism.

[Alcon]

What makes your concern about strip clubs superior to concerns about property value, crime, etc.?

Here:



Vashon Island, a Seattle suburb.  Increasingly wealthy waterside commuters.  30 minute ferry from the centre of Seattle.  About as Democratic as Minneapolis, but with 1/10th the crime.

I agree that those cookie-cutter, boring suburbs are terrible.  But just as it's unfair to dismiss all cities as being like Detroit, it's unfair to dismiss all suburbs as being like those.

[Gabu]

And there's the point, people in suburban areas are too concerned about property values. You can't make any place a red light district without people complaining. Minneapolis has a very nice red light district, and no one minds. If Seattle was a true urban city like it, it'd be the same.

I'm 100% sure that people in suburban areas would think that you were way too concerned about red light districts.

Again, why can't suburban areas have their high property values while urban areas have their red light districts?  I don't see why it has to be an either-or situation.  You don't have to live in Seattle and they don't have to live in Minneapolis.

[Everett]

And there's the point, people in suburban areas are too concerned about property values. You can't make any place a red light district without people complaining. Minneapolis has a very nice red light district, and no one minds. If Seattle was a true urban city like it, it'd be the same.

I'm 100% sure that people in suburban areas would think that you were way too concerned about red light districts.

Again, why can't suburban areas have their high property values while urban areas have their red light districts?  I don't see why it has to be an either-or situation.  You don't have to live in Seattle and they don't have to live in Minneapolis.

Because with terrorists, either you're with them or you are against them.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What makes your concern about strip clubs superior to concerns about property value, crime, etc.?

I don't care about property value, it just means cheaper housing. Crime doesn't bother me. It's not hard to avoid. And it's not just strip clubs. It's also good bars and good record stores.

Vashon Island, a Seattle suburb.  Increasingly wealthy waterside commuters.  30 minute ferry from the centre of Seattle.  About as Democratic as Minneapolis, but with 1/10th the crime.

First of all, that means it's full of yuppie latte liberal types I despise. And second, why should you have to go through the trouble and cost of a ferry every time you want to go to the city center?

[Gabu]

What makes your concern about strip clubs superior to concerns about property value, crime, etc.?

I don't care about property value, it just means cheaper housing. Crime doesn't bother me. It's not hard to avoid. And it's not just strip clubs. It's also good bars and good record stores.

Vashon Island, a Seattle suburb.  Increasingly wealthy waterside commuters.  30 minute ferry from the centre of Seattle.  About as Democratic as Minneapolis, but with 1/10th the crime.

First of all, that means it's full of yuppie latte liberal types I despise. And second, why should you have to go through the trouble and cost of a ferry every time you want to go to the city center?

I'm going to assume that you're not purposely avoiding my questions, and are instead simply missing them, so I'll restate the general idea: why does the fact that you dislike the thought of something mean that the country would be better off without something?  Last I checked, you live nowhere near Vashon Island and really are not affected by anything surrouding Vashon Island at all, and yet you seem to feel that it would be better for the residents of Vashon Island if it was a paved urban area with highrises and red light districts.

Is it not possible that the people of Vashon Island like their surroundings?

[bgwah]

What makes your concern about strip clubs superior to concerns about property value, crime, etc.?

I don't care about property value, it just means cheaper housing. Crime doesn't bother me. It's not hard to avoid. And it's not just strip clubs. It's also good bars and good record stores.

Vashon Island, a Seattle suburb.  Increasingly wealthy waterside commuters.  30 minute ferry from the centre of Seattle.  About as Democratic as Minneapolis, but with 1/10th the crime.

First of all, that means it's full of yuppie latte liberal types I despise. And second, why should you have to go through the trouble and cost of a ferry every time you want to go to the city center?

No, Vashon is inhabited by dirty island hippies. You know, like Gabu!

[DanielX]

I think massive cities aren't as neccesary as they used to be. With much faster transit available via automobiles and to a lesser extent public transit (busses and trains), the best thing would be to have a large number of small-to-medium-sized cities (with maybe 10-100,000 people in the city proper, although commercial and industrial zones would be concentrated in the cities), with suburbs dotting the countryside.

Also, a well-planned transit system that grows with the city is crucial. Consider Montgomery County, Maryland: the road network in many places has not been expanded to accomodate new traffic - particularly east-west traffic running between the hihh-tech corridor on I-270 and the suburbs of eastern Montgomery and Prince George's counties. Consider that in the northern half of Montgomery county (everything north of Randolph Road), every east-west corridor road is only one lane each direction in stretches. Cars that would otherwise take these roads often head south, taking either Randolph Road, University Boulevard, or the Beltway. Traffic on all three roads is nightmarish during Rush Hour. The traffic problems are nowhere near as bad in neighboring Howard county -of course there are fewer people in Howard county, but also the roads are in much better condition, and the system is far more efficient (all the major thorughfares are at least 2 lanes in each direction, often 3, and many are expressway-style). BRTD would hate Howard county - it's all suburb, full of malls, mcmansions and townhouses, and that sort of thing. The only parts of Howard he might remotely tolerate are Ellicott City (older and more 'interesting', but still more suburban), and the US 1 corridor in the east (poorer, older, the less nice part of the county... and still at least somewhat suburban). And the western part of the county... low-density suburb fading into rural areas.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Since I'm now done with the presentation of the class project I was working on last night, I can finally answer all the questions here in more entirety.

What makes your concern about strip clubs superior to concerns about property value, crime, etc.?

I don't care about property value, it just means cheaper housing. Crime doesn't bother me. It's not hard to avoid. And it's not just strip clubs. It's also good bars and good record stores.

Vashon Island, a Seattle suburb.  Increasingly wealthy waterside commuters.  30 minute ferry from the centre of Seattle.  About as Democratic as Minneapolis, but with 1/10th the crime.

First of all, that means it's full of yuppie latte liberal types I despise. And second, why should you have to go through the trouble and cost of a ferry every time you want to go to the city center?

I'm going to assume that you're not purposely avoiding my questions, and are instead simply missing them, so I'll restate the general idea: why does the fact that you dislike the thought of something mean that the country would be better off without something?  Last I checked, you live nowhere near Vashon Island and really are not affected by anything surrouding Vashon Island at all, and yet you seem to feel that it would be better for the residents of Vashon Island if it was a paved urban area with highrises and red light districts.

Is it not possible that the people of Vashon Island like their surroundings?

Well I'm not really bothered by Vashion Island, but it's just that, AN ISLAND. It has no real effect on the surrounding area. Other suburbs aren't quite the same.

What makes your concern about strip clubs superior to concerns about property value, crime, etc.?

I don't care about property value, it just means cheaper housing. Crime doesn't bother me. It's not hard to avoid. And it's not just strip clubs. It's also good bars and good record stores.

I had a somewhat close friend who was murdered a few years back walking through the red light district here.  I'm glad crime does not matter to you, and I'm sure he could have done a better job of avoiding it when he walked home from his job.

That's quite awful. But it doesn't mean it's likely to happen to me.

Last year there was 13 murders in Tacoma. That's 6.7 out of 100,000. That means you have a 0.0067% chance of being murdered in Tacoma. I'll also assume that a good portion of those are things such as gang on gang violence or domestic abuse type situations, meaning if you aren't involved in gangs or abusive relationships, the odds are even less. You have a much larger chance of dying in an auto accident, and the odds go higher on the congested roads caused by suburbs.

Now to look at Minneapolis, there was 46 murders last year, which is 12 out of 100,000. Almost twice that of Tacoma, but still not very high as that means a 0.012% chance of being murdered, which of course is much lower for non-gang members and the like. My aunt who has lived in Minneapolis for over 10 years has never even come close to being murdered.

Also, how many people go to the Minneapolis red light district daily? I can't give exact numbers, but it's a lot. I've seen as much as 200 people in Deja Vu before (the place is quite big). And that was just one time, not everyone who visited it that day. Of course that was one weekends, but I bet on some weekend nights they may get a total of over 500 customers. If we assume only 100 customers on the weeknights, that equals 1500 total customers that week, plus the staff and strippers. And how many of them are murdered? Then there's all the other strip clubs and "businesses" in the area. Deja Vu is by far the biggest business there, but even if we assume it makes up 10% of the area's commerce (which is quite a bit) that still equals 15,000 customers there per week + workers and strippers. And how many are murdered? At less than one murder a week, not many. I'd be drunk drivers are a bigger threat to you than organized crime in that area.

So why should I care about crime again?

In that case, Lake Forest Park - about 70% Democratic, a ten-minute bus ride from the city centre.

I doubt it's that short. It takes me more than 10 minutes to drive to my job, which actually is in a suburb, but in a much smaller urban area than the one you are talking about. Plus it takes at least 15 minutes for me to drive from my favorite record store in Minneapolis to the bars that have good indie shows, strip clubs, my aunt's house, etc. When I once drove from my other aunt's house in the suburbs to the strip clubs, it took a half hour.

If I say the place leans young, you'll complain there are yuppies; if it leans old, you will complain that it is not youthful enough.

Not neccesarily. Not all young people are yuppies. I just don't like young AFFLUENT areas. My city and Minneapolis are fine.

Since you have decided to hate everything but the inner city, why do you continue to bring it up?  If you are cemented in your beliefs, and can't change, why discuss?

That's not true. My city isn't a huge urban center, and I like it.

So why can't you have your urban city while we have our suburban city?  It seems to me that the existence of suburbs is not curtailing your ability to visit strip clubs, and the abolition of suburbs would not really affect you in any way.

Read memphis' posts. Suburbs are quite parasitic. Their sprawl is bad for the environment, they create things like the housing bubble, they cause urban decay, and effectively are one of the many factors leading to class stratification. Plus they are places where big box retailers including the evil Wal-Mart which is never a good thing.  Also they are largely the result of racism (you know why the term white flight exists?)

But if people want to live in their disgusting cookie cutter McMansions and their white picket fences, I guess I can't stop them. What they should not be able to do is set up their own bedroom communities to avoid city regulations and leech off the city. Nor should they care about what happens in the city. So if the suburbs were annexed to the city and they still had to pay city taxes and had a stake in how the city went, urban decay would approve, or we can add a suburban tax (which I support)

And even without all that, the people in the suburbs should MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS and be content they can live in their disgusting sterile hellholes and not be concerned with things that go on in the city. See Twin Cities suburbanites protesting a recent "sex convention" that took place in Minneapolis or complaining about gay pride events and the like there. They don't live there, so quit bashing actually enlighened peopel and just go on living thier lives in their cookie cutter sterile lands ignoring the things that go on in places where things are actually interesting. You can bet I would not hate suburbs so much if suburbanites weren't so concerned about enforcing their disgusting beliefs on the enlighted city dwellers.

[opebo]

Alcon, BRTD, there is no such thing as a 'red light district' in an American city.  Such things do not exist, due to the illegality of prostitution and the vehement enforcement of these laws.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Alcon, BRTD, there is no such thing as a 'red light district' in an American city.  Such things do not exist, due to the illegality of prostitution and the vehement enforcement of these laws.

Well the Minneapolis one is full of strip clubs and sex businesses. There are also "massage parlors" and a few alleys that are places where hookers like to hang out which are largely ignored, the police are more concerned with only the drug dealers and gangs.

[minionofmidas]

It would be much better without densely packed cities.  Decentralize the civilization, place them in small towns with sidewalks and parks and cozy little homes and get them out of all the pollution, corruption, and crime. 

Except that you're just spreading the stuff everywhere ... basically (ultra-basically...okay oversimplifyingly) suburbanization destroys city and countryside alike.

[opebo]

Alcon, BRTD, there is no such thing as a 'red light district' in an American city.  Such things do not exist, due to the illegality of prostitution and the vehement enforcement of these laws.

Well the Minneapolis one is full of strip clubs and sex businesses. There are also "massage parlors" and a few alleys that are places where hookers like to hang out which are largely ignored, the police are more concerned with only the drug dealers and gangs.

Wow.  In St. Louis the police have almost entirely eliminated street prostitution, and 'sex businesses' are a great rarity in all of Missouri.  They are constantly harrassed by the prudes in state government.  When I'm home I have to drive 40-60 minutes to rent pornos.

But about those Minneapolis hookers.. what do they look like?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

But about those Minneapolis hookers.. what do they look like?

Pretty stereotypically whorish. None of them have ever been my thing. I've also been to some strip clubs that have reputations of being fronts for prostitution and I have to say the strippers there are far far less better looking than the ones at "legitimate" clubs.

[opebo]

But about those Minneapolis hookers.. what do they look like?

Pretty stereotypically whorish. None of them have ever been my thing. I've also been to some strip clubs that have reputations of being fronts for prostitution and I have to say the strippers there are far far less better looking than the ones at "legitimate" clubs.

But of course!  In the US the police state makes sex so hard to get that a woman may make a handsome living merely teasing the male, without ever actually giving him anything for his money, if she is sufficiently good looking.  And by the same method, women who are quite unattractive may sell their bodies, even though they would not be worth much of anything in a 'free market'. 

Still better to be satisfied by a pig than ripped off by a great beauty, wouldn't you say?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

But about those Minneapolis hookers.. what do they look like?

Pretty stereotypically whorish. None of them have ever been my thing. I've also been to some strip clubs that have reputations of being fronts for prostitution and I have to say the strippers there are far far less better looking than the ones at "legitimate" clubs.

But of course!  In the US the police state makes sex so hard to get that a woman may make a handsome living merely teasing the male, without ever actually giving him anything for his money, if she is sufficiently good looking.  And by the same method, women who are quite unattractive may sell their bodies, even though they would not be worth much of anything in a 'free market'. 

Still better to be satisfied by a pig than ripped off by a great beauty, wouldn't you say?

a pig, no. Although my standards for sex are much lower than lapdances, no question. Typically, I would only be willing to buy a lapdance from about 20% of the strippers currently working when I'm at a strip club, however there are many strippers that I would never buy a lapdance from that I would have sex with in a heartbeat.

[David S]

On a completely different note, can we please get BRTD laid, so he'll quit producing strip-club oriented posts. There's more to life than paying a girl to sit in your lap, kid.

LMAO   Excellent comment Memphis.

[Alcon]

Well I'm not really bothered by Vashion Island, but it's just that, AN ISLAND. It has no real effect on the surrounding area. Other suburbs aren't quite the same.

I'm not sure how geographic connection has anything to do with affect on surrounding areas.  Are you any more affected by someplace connected by land to your part of the county than across a body of water?  Both have equal vote.  The latter is more likely to be in your legislative district, and Vashon is the only suburb (other than the standard lower middle class inner 'burbs) with which Seattle shares one.

Last year there was 13 murders in Tacoma. That's 6.7 out of 100,000. That means you have a 0.0067% chance of being murdered in Tacoma. I'll also assume that a good portion of those are things such as gang on gang violence or domestic abuse type situations, meaning if you aren't involved in gangs or abusive relationships, the odds are even less. You have a much larger chance of dying in an auto accident, and the odds go higher on the congested roads caused by suburbs.

Now to look at Minneapolis, there was 46 murders last year, which is 12 out of 100,000. Almost twice that of Tacoma, but still not very high as that means a 0.012% chance of being murdered, which of course is much lower for non-gang members and the like. My aunt who has lived in Minneapolis for over 10 years has never even come close to being murdered.

Well, let's extend that.  Say you live in Minneapolis for 30 years.  Your 0.012% chance goes up to a 0.36% chance.  Now, let's say you know 50 other people in Minneapolis (which is reasonable for someone your age).  It's now nearly a 1-in-5 chance you'll know someone who will be murdered.  Not to mention that crime rates are higher in red light districts by a significant amount.  That considered, I'd wager that there's probably a 1-in-3 chance that you'll have a friend murdered in that timeblock if you live in a red light district.

Also, how many people go to the Minneapolis red light district daily? I can't give exact numbers, but it's a lot. I've seen as much as 200 people in Deja Vu before (the place is quite big). And that was just one time, not everyone who visited it that day. Of course that was one weekends, but I bet on some weekend nights they may get a total of over 500 customers. If we assume only 100 customers on the weeknights, that equals 1500 total customers that week, plus the staff and strippers. And how many of them are murdered? Then there's all the other strip clubs and "businesses" in the area. Deja Vu is by far the biggest business there, but even if we assume it makes up 10% of the area's commerce (which is quite a bit) that still equals 15,000 customers there per week + workers and strippers. And how many are murdered? At less than one murder a week, not many. I'd be drunk drivers are a bigger threat to you than organized crime in that area.

So why should I care about crime again?

Murder alone is not the only threat, obviously.  You are more likely than not to fall victim to a significant crime after 10 years in such an area.  Of course, I should point out that drunk drivers are more likely in red light districts and drunk driving is also a crime and, oh yeah, is counted under the murder statistic because it is vehicular manslaughter.

In that case, Lake Forest Park - about 70% Democratic, a ten-minute bus ride from the city centre.

I doubt it's that short. It takes me more than 10 minutes to drive to my job, which actually is in a suburb, but in a much smaller urban area than the one you are talking about. Plus it takes at least 15 minutes for me to drive from my favorite record store in Minneapolis to the bars that have good indie shows, strip clubs, my aunt's house, etc. When I once drove from my other aunt's house in the suburbs to the strip clubs, it took a half hour.

It depends on your definition of centre.  I should say "significant neighbourhood," that is, with entertainment and the like.

If I say the place leans young, you'll complain there are yuppies; if it leans old, you will complain that it is not youthful enough.

Not neccesarily. Not all young people are yuppies. I just don't like young AFFLUENT areas. My city and Minneapolis are fine.

Why not?

So why can't you have your urban city while we have our suburban city?  It seems to me that the existence of suburbs is not curtailing your ability to visit strip clubs, and the abolition of suburbs would not really affect you in any way.

Read memphis' posts. Suburbs are quite parasitic. Their sprawl is bad for the environment, they create things like the housing bubble, they cause urban decay, and effectively are one of the many factors leading to class stratification. Plus they are places where big box retailers including the evil Wal-Mart which is never a good thing.  Also they are largely the result of racism (you know why the term white flight exists?)

I love refuting these arguments with Seattle.  I know it's one specific example, but since you're pretty much making a blanket assumption that all suburbs are bad...

1. The Seattle suburbs were specifically designed and maintained to avoid minimum environmental impact.  Lake Forest Park was the first planned community.  It was planned specifically to avoid cutting down trees.

2. The Seattle suburbs are oftentimes more diverse than Seattle.  The affluent suburbs of Bellevue and Redmond will probably be less white than Seattle come next Census.  The most diverse city in the Seattle metro area is Renton - a suburb.  Here, the minorities are going to the suburbs because housing prices are oftentimes lower even though incomes aren't significantly.

3. Mankato has a Wal-Mart.  Most Seattle suburbs don't, because residents protest whenever they try to move here.

But if people want to live in their disgusting cookie cutter McMansions and their white picket fences, I guess I can't stop them. What they should not be able to do is set up their own bedroom communities to avoid city regulations and leech off the city. Nor should they care about what happens in the city. So if the suburbs were annexed to the city and they still had to pay city taxes and had a stake in how the city went, urban decay would approve, or we can add a suburban tax (which I support)

I'm not claiming that McMansion areas aren't dumb (although around here they help the Democrats).  Rather, I'm complaining that your idea of suburb is fundamentally flawed.  There are virtually no McMansion areas around here.  Most suburbs are either densely-populated with lots of apartments and white collar workers or sparsely populated and full of environmentalists.  Your idea of a suburb is not necessarily universal.  I just want you to admit that not all suburbs suck to the degree that you claim.

[And even without all that, the people in the suburbs should MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS and be content they can live in their disgusting sterile hellholes and not be concerned with things that go on in the city. See Twin Cities suburbanites protesting a recent "sex convention" that took place in Minneapolis or complaining about gay pride events and the like there. They don't live there, so quit bashing actually enlighened peopel and just go on living thier lives in their cookie cutter sterile lands ignoring the things that go on in places where things are actually interesting. You can bet I would not hate suburbs so much if suburbanites weren't so concerned about enforcing their disgusting beliefs on the enlighted city dwellers.

The Twin Cities' suburbs are generally Republican and conservative, which not all suburbs are.

[Everett]

The more BRTD opens that mouth of his, the more of a stupid, uncultured prude he makes himself look.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm not sure how geographic connection has anything to do with affect on surrounding areas.  Are you any more affected by someplace connected by land to your part of the county than across a body of water?  Both have equal vote.  The latter is more likely to be in your legislative district, and Vashon is the only suburb (other than the standard lower middle class inner 'burbs) with which Seattle shares one.

Because islands aren't affected by sprawl.

Well, let's extend that.  Say you live in Minneapolis for 30 years.  Your 0.012% chance goes up to a 0.36% chance.  Now, let's say you know 50 other people in Minneapolis (which is reasonable for someone your age).  It's now nearly a 1-in-5 chance you'll know someone who will be murdered.  Not to mention that crime rates are higher in red light districts by a significant amount.  That considered, I'd wager that there's probably a 1-in-3 chance that you'll have a friend murdered in that timeblock if you live in a red light district.

Well my aunt doesn't know anyone who's been murdered. Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because she doesn't hang out with people involved in gangs and organized crime.

Also, she works at the University of Minnesota. There aren't that many U of M students murdered. I can't confirm it, but I'd bet none of those murders last year were students. I wonder why? See above paragraph. Are you saying there is no way you would attend such a university then if it was located in such a city?

By the way, your math is way off. 0.36% x 50 = 1.8%. Hardly 1-in-5.

Murder alone is not the only threat, obviously.  You are more likely than not to fall victim to a significant crime after 10 years in such an area.  Of course, I should point out that drunk drivers are more likely in red light districts and drunk driving is also a crime and, oh yeah, is counted under the murder statistic because it is vehicular manslaughter.

I don't think drunk driving is counted under murder because there were 0 murders in my city last year by that stat, which would not be the case if drunk driving deaths count, but no, drunk drivers are not more common in the red light district because most of the strip clubs are non-alcoholic, but that's all beside the point, the point is that visiting strip clubs in the area is safe. What do you think the odds that I will encounter crime every time I go there?

It depends on your definition of centre.  I should say "significant neighbourhood," that is, with entertainment and the like.

Even so, there's no way it's going to be only 15 minutes from a suburb. The good parts of Minneapolis are more than 15 minutes away from the main residential areas, and 30 minutes from the suburbs, as I mentioned.

Why not?

Because they aren't full of affluent yuppies. Rather, people like me.

I love refuting these arguments with Seattle.  I know it's one specific example, but since you're pretty much making a blanket assumption that all suburbs are bad...

1. The Seattle suburbs were specifically designed and maintained to avoid minimum environmental impact.  Lake Forest Park was the first planned community.  It was planned specifically to avoid cutting down trees.

2. The Seattle suburbs are oftentimes more diverse than Seattle.  The affluent suburbs of Bellevue and Redmond will probably be less white than Seattle come next Census.  The most diverse city in the Seattle metro area is Renton - a suburb.  Here, the minorities are going to the suburbs because housing prices are oftentimes lower even though incomes aren't significantly.

3. Mankato has a Wal-Mart.  Most Seattle suburbs don't, because residents protest whenever they try to move here.

Well until lapdances are legal in Seattle, living in that area is out of the picture for me. But if that horrible repressive prudish law is turned down, why live in the suburbs when I can live in the city proper, and those suburbs are probably still full of yuppies as the whole area is, not real liberals.

I'm not claiming that McMansion areas aren't dumb (although around here they help the Democrats).  Rather, I'm complaining that your idea of suburb is fundamentally flawed.  There are virtually no McMansion areas around here.  Most suburbs are either densely-populated with lots of apartments and white collar workers or sparsely populated and full of environmentalists.  Your idea of a suburb is not necessarily universal.  I just want you to admit that not all suburbs suck to the degree that you claim.

Such areas do not sound like suburbs then. Is Camden a suburb? It is technically, but it doesn't have McMansions. And it usually isn't considered suburban. Brooklyn Center, one north of Minneapolis doesn't suck either. But look at the stats. It's not suburban! And even then the only reason I'd be willing to live there is it is closer to the red light district than south Minneapolis.

The Twin Cities' suburbs are generally Republican and conservative, which not all suburbs are.

You can find an exception for everything. I could say which all suburbs except Seattle's are, and be right.

[Everett]

omigawwwwddd looikit me im a hawtt punk emo kid LOL ur a prude

Honestly, BRTD, your bitchery is amusing albeit extraordinarily immature. If you have such a big problem with suburbs, don't live in them and don't complain about them. If you are so proud of your bloody city, live there. Don't ever go anywhere else, and don't pass through the icky ewww omigawd liek prude suburbs, and don't ever visit any other cities, because they are going to be too omigaaawwwrd wtf eww prude for you. Of course, since everyone who disagrees with you is an omigaaaawwwrd liek soooo prude, and everything that you don't like is an omigaaaawrd liek icky ewww suburb, arguing with you is pointless. Keep being an immature emo as always; just don't expect the "reasonable" posters to agree with you.

And go get laid already instead of bitching here. Unless, of course, you're too much of a loser to get laid even though you seem so damned proud of your testosterone and masculinity.

[opebo]

If I say the place leans young, you'll complain there are yuppies; if it leans old, you will complain that it is not youthful enough.

Not neccesarily. Not all young people are yuppies. I just don't like young AFFLUENT areas. My city and Minneapolis are fine.

Why not?

Alcon, such people are obnoxious and unpleasant.   Hubris and unwarranted self-congratulation always is.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Looked in a mirror recently?

[opebo]

Looked in a mirror recently?

Yes, and I am the most humble of men.  I attribute my every advantage to my birth rather than my own efforts, Al.

[Gabu]

If I say the place leans young, you'll complain there are yuppies; if it leans old, you will complain that it is not youthful enough.

Not neccesarily. Not all young people are yuppies. I just don't like young AFFLUENT areas. My city and Minneapolis are fine.

Why not?

Alcon, such people are obnoxious and unpleasant.   Hubris and unwarranted self-congratulation always is.

Exactly how much time have you spent in such a place?  I lived for four months in Redmond, Washington, in which the median income is around $66,000/year, and I never once encountered a person who was loaded with "hubris and unwarranted self-congratulation".