UK General Discussion: 2019. Blackadder goes Brexit.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I read somewhere that Hancock is staying at Health, although with Truss at Trade the NHS might be doomed anyway.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Michael Gove is the new chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster

Does this carry any importance (since Gove is apparently not going to be Minister for the Cabinet Office) or has Boris essentially sacked him without sacking him?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

How about "SHOWDOWN! Bercow vs. JRM" for the thread title?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Buzz Feed says that Boris and his team are considering additional grossly un-democratic moves to force no deal, such as adding bank holidays, packing the House of Lords, and refusing to step down in case of no confidence

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/boris-johnson-brexit-extreme-measures

An Eton/Oxbridge/Spectator-orbit posho seeing representative democracy as an irritating obstacle to be juiced and gamed as much as possible to get what he wants?! Say it ain't so!

Democracy: just a minor inconvenience to be brushed away in modern Britain

By the remain side which has refused to respect the outcome of the referendum for more than three years now, you mean? You're right.

"And you are lynching Negroes!"

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Ruth Davidson has resigned as Scottish Tory leader.

Also, Lord Young of Cookham i.e. George Young, former Cabinet minister, has resigned as a junior whip over this.

... Honestly didn't know that a thatcher cabinet minister still had a government position. Don't you love the Lords?

Thatcher's Scotland and Defence Secretary was George Younger. George Young was Major's last Transport Secretary. Still been in Parliament in some capacity since 1974, though.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1169004516840235014

Normal, normal, behaviour, very normal - extremely normal. The very definition of the norm.

"Why won't Jeremy Corbyn debate run against me?"

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Was kicking out 21 members of your party on the same day you lost your working majority the... um... right strategy here?

DOMINIC CUMMINGS, STRATEGIC MASTERMIND

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

So far all of the Speakers have been from a Brexit supporting party, and now we're on Diane Abbott

Oh, this canard

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

So far all of the Speakers have been from a Brexit supporting party, and now we're on Diane Abbott

Oh, this canard

A week of platitudes does not erase three years of inaction

What would have been adequate action for a party that was committed in principle to respecting the referendum result? Or is having been committed in principle to respecting the referendum result until it became clear that the two realistic long-term options were crash-out or revocation enough in itself to still make a party "Brexit-supporting" now that that's become clear?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

From the Grauniad livestream: "'Boris knows how to win' - Trump backs Johnson despite PM's latest setback".

I wonder when Boris will get tired of winning.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

So what are the powers of the House of Lords, can they delay the bill until the proroguing of parliament or something similar?

In theory yes, but my understanding is that a motion in the Lords has been tabled to limit debate to the next two days or so. The Lords also has a much, much smaller Tory plurality than the Commons, even after Johnson's purge of the rebels last night; the government can still rely on about 45% of the Commons but barely a third of the Lords (or, at least, the Lords' total membership, not all of which regularly participates in its business).

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

House of Lords currently voting down wrecking amendments from Brexiteer aristos. Thirteen or so have been defeated already. God only knows how many to go.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Lib Dem peer (of the ~entrepreneur and philanthropist~ subspecies) Paul Strasburger tweets that the Government in the Lords has caved.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

This bill represents an attempt by the legislature to assume the mantle of government. That is why it is wrong. That is why it is illegitimate ...

Parliamentary supremacy? I don't know her.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

What a disgrace.  A minority is holding hostage & completely paralyzing the government.  The UK needs serious constitutional reform if and when this ever ends.

So the government is holding itself hostage, since they're the ones in minority now.

NO.  The remain minority is now holding hostage a governement trying to implement the will of the people.  There's going to be a reckoning in the next election.

Since when was no deal, supported by 30% of the electorate in polling, "the will of the people"? Are you drunk?

Yes, but the people didn’t vote for a deal.  They voted on whether they wanted to leave or not.  No deal was always an option.

So how is one "option" among many "the will of the people"? No deal is an option just as much as EFTA is. The government is blocking "the will of the people" by refusing to put forward a soft Brexit!

If you don’t think the people want no deal, let there be a general election on Oct 15.  I know who will win.

That a party can win because of vote-splitting by its opposition has no bearing on measuring the 'will of the people' writ large. Polling suggests soft Brexit remains the plurality most popular option, and hard (no-deal) is less popular than Remain.

I resisted the conclusion of supporting muh second referendum for a long time, but at this point a second referendum would probably have more democratic legitimacy than a general election, since presumably in a second referendum one of the options would have to get to 50%+1 of the electorate.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

https://twitter.com/MattGarrahan/status/1169720609095462913

Is there any precedent for this?

There is nothing they won't pull to cause more dither and delay until the 31st of October so they can leave with their prized no deal

The opposition should pull a Di Maio/Zingaretti and take the opportunity to put forward their own government. It would of course only be a temporary and precarious arrangement, but it would allow the UK to get an extension from the EU and then hold an election that isn't on BoJo's terms.

no would they opposition agree to making Jeremy Corbyn PM. If the opposition doesnt want Johnson  to actually have the power to lead the nation through brexit then they should pass a motion of no confidence and  if they win the election they will still have time to call for an extension.

Thankfully, there are MPs other than Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Boris is broken. | We have an opportunity
To bring down Boris, | to break Boris,
And to bring down Brexit | --and we must take that.

Worthy of W.H. Auden tbh.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

This isn't in response to any specific event, but I was just thinking the other day about what a long, strange trip the past ten years or so have been for the Liberal Democrats as a party. From a proto-#woke third party with a left-of-Labour image among many, to serious contenders in the 2010 election, to arch-austericrat Tory lapdogs, to a discredited rump skirting dangerously close to joke party status, to their resurrection as the party of choice for committed Europeanists across the left-right spectrum. I'd never vote for the Lib Dems if I were British (except perhaps tactically if I lived in a West Country marginal or something), but as an outside observer, I find myself becoming oddly invested in their constantly shifting fortunes.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Boris Johnson should have had someone in his party bring up a no confidence motion in himself to have the election happen.

The rebel alliance could have just voted for confidence in Johnson to forestall that. Which would have been Peak Brexit Era, obviously, but there was a brief shining moment last weekend when people (or, at any rate, Grauniad livebloggers) were seriously discussing the possibility.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

https://twitter.com/DanRebellato/status/1175311928299794433

This is kind of a problem that goes deeper than Corbyn, though, isn't it? Like, the idea that There Be Dragons morally and electorally speaking everywhere outside the Labour Party as such, seems to be an entrenched element of the party's culture and mindset. Or have I just not been following British politics closely for long enough to remember a time when that wasn't the case?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Of course if Britain didn't use FPTP Labour could court a working-class "Brexit-neutral" base, the Lib Dems and Greens and so forth could court committed Europeanists across the left-right spectrum and up and down the class system, and neither would have to worry about producing an artificial Tory landslide by fishing in different pools.

Having said that, yeah, the Labour membership's leader-worship is getting seriously creepy.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

BoJo asks opposition parties to table a motion of no-confidence. Opposition says "lol no".

"wHY woN't JeReMy COrbyN VotE agaINST Me?!"

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Why in God's name do the Lib Dems want an election that'll probably produce a comfortable Tory majority before the current, relatively inoffensive deal can be passed? Are they of the belief that they'll sweep to victory and BRING DOWN BREXIT instead?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Why in God's name do the Lib Dems want an election that'll probably produce a comfortable Tory majority before the current, relatively inoffensive deal can be passed? Are they of the belief that they'll sweep to victory and BRING DOWN BREXIT instead?

lmao

I said "relatively". Do you honestly think the election will produce a Parliament whose Brexit stance will be better? If so, you could have just said yes to my second question.

Anyway, there are two clear reasons I think:

1) Political party has decided there is an opportunity it will take to advance its own prospects. Might one suggest that this is not as shocking a development as some seem to think

2) It is not the Lib Dem's responsibility to bend their actions and policies around what Corbyn wants. Maybe if he wasn't such a total disaster the Tories wouldn't be heading for a majority. It's not in the Lib Dems' interests to refuse to take an electoral opportunity because it isn't an optimal time for a completely different party.

Okay, so you're admitting the Lib Dems are motivated by increasing their own electoral prospects rather than actually stopping or even mitigating Brexit. Gotcha. (And, no, I'm not under the impression that Labour is any better about this.)

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Anyway, there are two clear reasons I think:

1) Political party has decided there is an opportunity it will take to advance its own prospects. Might one suggest that this is not as shocking a development as some seem to think

2) It is not the Lib Dem's responsibility to bend their actions and policies around what Corbyn wants. Maybe if he wasn't such a total disaster the Tories wouldn't be heading for a majority. It's not in the Lib Dems' interests to refuse to take an electoral opportunity because it isn't an optimal time for a completely different party.

Okay, so you're admitting the Lib Dems are motivated by increasing their own electoral prospects rather than actually stopping or even mitigating Brexit. Gotcha. (And, no, I'm not under the impression that Labour is any better about this.)

Well, I could argue that the Lib Dems think they can win more MPs in an election and a Parliament with more Remain supporting MPs is a Parliament that can be used to stop or mitigate Brexit. And I would to an extent, but in general, no, I'm not under any illusions that this is anything except party political. And who cares? Every party, in every democratic country in the world, in every circumstance does the thing that will benefit them the most electorally. It's just a fact of life in politics.

That's fair.