1st DEM Debate Thread: June 26 & 27, Miami, MSNBC & NBC & Telemundo (9-11pm)

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

Wants the point of illegal immigration even being a civil offense if all the candidates have pledged never to deport anyone unless they've committed a major crime? Illegal immigrants will just keep accruing fines for as long as they are here? Will they be put in jail if they don't pay fines? Every single candidate in the debate took this position but it doesn't appear any of them even thought it out.

What do you have against immigrants? They are human too, unlike you.

We don't have infinity resources and thus cannot share our resources with an unlimited number of people. Simple as.

Immigrants produce more resources than they consume.

[Famous Mortimer]

Wants the point of illegal immigration even being a civil offense if all the candidates have pledged never to deport anyone unless they've committed a major crime? Illegal immigrants will just keep accruing fines for as long as they are here? Will they be put in jail if they don't pay fines? Every single candidate in the debate took this position but it doesn't appear any of them even thought it out.

What do you have against immigrants? They are human too, unlike you.

We don't have infinity resources and thus cannot share our resources with an unlimited number of people. Simple as.

Immigrants produce more resources than they consume.

Every single immigrant? Obviously some do and some don't. It would be wise, at the very least, to select for the ones that do, that's what Canada does. If you just allow anyone as long as they aren't a murderer, that obviously creates an incentive for the people who don't to come here. Why wouldn't they? There's no punishment and they get welfare (also, funny thing how their own countries can't provide welfare. Why do you think that is? It's because most people in their countries don't actually produce more than they consume).

[izixs]

Wants the point of illegal immigration even being a civil offense if all the candidates have pledged never to deport anyone unless they've committed a major crime? Illegal immigrants will just keep accruing fines for as long as they are here? Will they be put in jail if they don't pay fines? Every single candidate in the debate took this position but it doesn't appear any of them even thought it out.

What do you have against immigrants? They are human too, unlike you.

We don't have infinity resources and thus cannot share our resources with an unlimited number of people. Simple as.

Ah yes, the infinity people who exist outside the united states. Naturally when dealing with infinity people it might seem daunting to be accommodating and so...

Wait... there isn't an infinite number of people. Like, in existence. Oh I guess that makes this argument about needing infinity resources kind of silly.

[Famous Mortimer]

Wants the point of illegal immigration even being a civil offense if all the candidates have pledged never to deport anyone unless they've committed a major crime? Illegal immigrants will just keep accruing fines for as long as they are here? Will they be put in jail if they don't pay fines? Every single candidate in the debate took this position but it doesn't appear any of them even thought it out.

What do you have against immigrants? They are human too, unlike you.

We don't have infinity resources and thus cannot share our resources with an unlimited number of people. Simple as.

Ah yes, the infinity people who exist outside the united states. Naturally when dealing with infinity people it might seem daunting to be accommodating and so...

Wait... there isn't an infinite number of people. Like, in existence. Oh I guess that makes this argument about needing infinity resources kind of silly.

This is pedantic. Okay, it's not infinity, it's "however many out of the 7 billion people on the planet are willing and able to reach the border". Do you think providing for the welfare of those tens of million (at least) of impoverished people is an easy task? It's hard to take care of the people here now. Why do you think adding more people (and adding more people who are much much poorer than the people will already have) will make the situation easier?

[Knives]

People saying Harris performed poorly are very out of touch.

[izixs]

Wants the point of illegal immigration even being a civil offense if all the candidates have pledged never to deport anyone unless they've committed a major crime? Illegal immigrants will just keep accruing fines for as long as they are here? Will they be put in jail if they don't pay fines? Every single candidate in the debate took this position but it doesn't appear any of them even thought it out.

What do you have against immigrants? They are human too, unlike you.

We don't have infinity resources and thus cannot share our resources with an unlimited number of people. Simple as.

Ah yes, the infinity people who exist outside the united states. Naturally when dealing with infinity people it might seem daunting to be accommodating and so...

Wait... there isn't an infinite number of people. Like, in existence. Oh I guess that makes this argument about needing infinity resources kind of silly.

This is pedantic. Okay, it's not infinity, it's "however many out of the 7 billion people on the planet are willing and able to reach the border". Do you think providing for the welfare of those tens of million (at least) of impoverished people is an easy task? It's hard to take care of the people here now. Why do you think adding more people (and adding more people who are much much poorer than the people will already have) will make the situation easier?

Not, it isn't an easy task. It isn't an easy task taking care of American citizens either, and we generally fail to do that as is. But instead of rounding up the poor and firing them into space or something, we let them exist and occasionally try to do something sensible to help their plight. Not effectively, but hey, sometimes we try, so go us?

And no, it won't make the situation easier. At least not in the short term. But that's an us problem, not a they problem. We're bad at insuring the general welfare of people while spending hundreds of billions on the military every year. Are happy to do big tax give aways to the already wealthy. And all the other things. That isn't the fault of those who are seeking opportunity or fleeing violence in their homelands. They just want the same thing the rest of us do, to be able to live our lives.

And people here are just so caught up on technicalities and notions of us vs them that they can't see that they are simply people. Not this weird alien menace that will sap our resources and bring about the destruction of mom and apple pie.

I responded as I did because I guess I'm just tired of the ridiculous framing of the issue. And so I pointed out the explicit ridiculousness on display. And you know what, I'd be happy to work with someone from a foreign land who believes in the promise of America to make America better for all of us. To make sure we can support each other, all those who are here, and all those who might drop by. Because we can, if we work together.

But I don't got any time for those who cry about the limitations of America. Who claim we can't, who peddle lie and hyperbole to suggest that we're at our limit because of immigrants straining the system. Because they're not the ones who built the trap, they're not the one's exploiting me, you, and those from across the boarder who seek hope and survival. We can, and should be doing better, so maybe lets do that. Which yes, means ending the influences of those who've got a stranglehold on our democracy.

[izixs]

People saying Harris performed poorly are very out of touch.

I have to disagree. I have no intention in supporting Harris in the primary (unless somehow it ended up just her vs Biden I guess, ugh) but I am capable of seeing when a candidate is making a strong impression. And she did. She also is perhaps due now for someone to hit her (next debate? One after?) about her own shoddy record which didn't happen this time. If Biden doesn't tired old man the next debate or two again, he might get to that. Some of the also rans might give it a try. But her weaknesses were not put on display during this debate, which did her a big favor and let her focus fire on threat to her nomination #1, Joey B.

[Famous Mortimer]

Wants the point of illegal immigration even being a civil offense if all the candidates have pledged never to deport anyone unless they've committed a major crime? Illegal immigrants will just keep accruing fines for as long as they are here? Will they be put in jail if they don't pay fines? Every single candidate in the debate took this position but it doesn't appear any of them even thought it out.

What do you have against immigrants? They are human too, unlike you.

We don't have infinity resources and thus cannot share our resources with an unlimited number of people. Simple as.

Ah yes, the infinity people who exist outside the united states. Naturally when dealing with infinity people it might seem daunting to be accommodating and so...

Wait... there isn't an infinite number of people. Like, in existence. Oh I guess that makes this argument about needing infinity resources kind of silly.

This is pedantic. Okay, it's not infinity, it's "however many out of the 7 billion people on the planet are willing and able to reach the border". Do you think providing for the welfare of those tens of million (at least) of impoverished people is an easy task? It's hard to take care of the people here now. Why do you think adding more people (and adding more people who are much much poorer than the people will already have) will make the situation easier?

Not, it isn't an easy task. It isn't an easy task taking care of American citizens either, and we generally fail to do that as is. But instead of rounding up the poor and firing them into space or something, we let them exist and occasionally try to do something sensible to help their plight. Not effectively, but hey, sometimes we try, so go us?

And no, it won't make the situation easier. At least not in the short term. But that's an us problem, not a they problem. We're bad at insuring the general welfare of people while spending hundreds of billions on the military every year. Are happy to do big tax give aways to the already wealthy. And all the other things. That isn't the fault of those who are seeking opportunity or fleeing violence in their homelands. They just want the same thing the rest of us do, to be able to live our lives.

And people here are just so caught up on technicalities and notions of us vs them that they can't see that they are simply people. Not this weird alien menace that will sap our resources and bring about the destruction of mom and apple pie.

I responded as I did because I guess I'm just tired of the ridiculous framing of the issue. And so I pointed out the explicit ridiculousness on display. And you know what, I'd be happy to work with someone from a foreign land who believes in the promise of America to make America better for all of us. To make sure we can support each other, all those who are here, and all those who might drop by. Because we can, if we work together.

But I don't got any time for those who cry about the limitations of America. Who claim we can't, who peddle lie and hyperbole to suggest that we're at our limit because of immigrants straining the system. Because they're not the ones who built the trap, they're not the one's exploiting me, you, and those from across the boarder who seek hope and survival. We can, and should be doing better, so maybe lets do that. Which yes, means ending the influences of those who've got a stranglehold on our democracy.

The United States is a country like any other. It has limitations. It is not magic. It's funny that left-wingers adopt this attitude of "American exceptionalism" but only when it comes to the issue of immigration/redistributing the wealth of Americans to foreigners. Very weird form of patriotism.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

People saying Harris performed poorly are very out of touch.

I have to disagree. I have no intention in supporting Harris in the primary (unless somehow it ended up just her vs Biden I guess, ugh) but I am capable of seeing when a candidate is making a strong impression. And she did. She also is perhaps due now for someone to hit her (next debate? One after?) about her own shoddy record which didn't happen this time. If Biden doesn't tired old man the next debate or two again, he might get to that. Some of the also rans might give it a try. But her weaknesses were not put on display during this debate, which did her a big favor and let her focus fire on threat to her nomination #1, Joey B.

It sounds like you agree.

[izixs]

People saying Harris performed poorly are very out of touch.

I have to disagree. I have no intention in supporting Harris in the primary (unless somehow it ended up just her vs Biden I guess, ugh) but I am capable of seeing when a candidate is making a strong impression. And she did. She also is perhaps due now for someone to hit her (next debate? One after?) about her own shoddy record which didn't happen this time. If Biden doesn't tired old man the next debate or two again, he might get to that. Some of the also rans might give it a try. But her weaknesses were not put on display during this debate, which did her a big favor and let her focus fire on threat to her nomination #1, Joey B.

It sounds like you agree.

Oh dah, you're right. I misread that. I... should go to bed. XP

[BlueSwan]

People saying Harris performed poorly are very out of touch.

I have to disagree. I have no intention in supporting Harris in the primary (unless somehow it ended up just her vs Biden I guess, ugh) but I am capable of seeing when a candidate is making a strong impression. And she did. She also is perhaps due now for someone to hit her (next debate? One after?) about her own shoddy record which didn't happen this time. If Biden doesn't tired old man the next debate or two again, he might get to that. Some of the also rans might give it a try. But her weaknesses were not put on display during this debate, which did her a big favor and let her focus fire on threat to her nomination #1, Joey B.

It sounds like you agree.

I disagree. They are clearly in agreement. ;-)

[Knives]

People saying Harris performed poorly are very out of touch.

I have to disagree. I have no intention in supporting Harris in the primary (unless somehow it ended up just her vs Biden I guess, ugh) but I am capable of seeing when a candidate is making a strong impression. And she did. She also is perhaps due now for someone to hit her (next debate? One after?) about her own shoddy record which didn't happen this time. If Biden doesn't tired old man the next debate or two again, he might get to that. Some of the also rans might give it a try. But her weaknesses were not put on display during this debate, which did her a big favor and let her focus fire on threat to her nomination #1, Joey B.

It sounds like you agree.

Oh dah, you're right. I misread that. I... should go to bed. XP

I was very confused for a moment.

[eric82oslo]

538 released the numbers from their pre-debate poll today, conducted by Morning Consult: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/democratic-debate-poll/

Here's the poll's rank of the favorability of all 20 debaters when divided into each debate.

Debate 1:

1. E. Warren: +49.7%
2. B. O'Rourke: +37%
3. C. Booker: +35.1%
4. A. Klobuchar: +20%
5. J. Castro: +19.6%
6. J. Inslee: +9%
7. T. Ryan: +8.2%
8. J. Delaney: +7.4%
9. T. Gabbard: +7.1%
10. B. de Blasio: -1.4%

Here are the new numbers now that the first debate has been concluded:

1. Warren: +58% (+8.3%)
2. Booker: +41.6% (+5.5%)
3. Castro: +34.5% (+14.9%)
4. O'Rourke: +32.5% (-4.5%)
5. Klobuchar: +22.7% (+2.7%)
6. Inslee: +11.6% (+2.6%)
7. Gabbard: +10.5% (+3.4%)
8. Ryan: +10.4% (+2.2%)
9. Delaney: +5% (-2.4%)
10. De Blasio: +1% (+2.4%)

[Former Crackhead Mike Lindell]

Still pitiful numbers for de Blasio, but movement in the right direction at least.

[Bismarck]

Kamala owned the debate last night. Biden had a few good moments but often looked old and tired. Sanders was like self parody. Gillibrand was horrible, extremely annoying.

[beaver2.0]

https://twitter.com/yang2020mass/status/1144522463474278400?s=21

He wanted to get in first, but apparently Gillibrand is more important. Seriously, screw NBC, screw joke candidates who can’t differentiate themselves and just take up speaking time. It’s outrageous

It would be nice if we could get a fair debate and not just a Warren, Biden, Sanders show.  Give the minor candidates time to speak.

[beaver2.0]

https://twitter.com/yang2020mass/status/1144522463474278400?s=21

He wanted to get in first, but apparently Gillibrand is more important. Seriously, screw NBC, screw joke candidates who can’t differentiate themselves and just take up speaking time. It’s outrageous

It would be nice if we could get a fair debate and not just a Warren, Biden, Sanders show.  Give the minor candidates time to speak.

Yes. They qualified for the same debate and should get equal time

Agreed.  I'm not sure in practice how giving exactly equal time would work, but certainly steps can be taken to give Sanders and Harris every other question.

[morgieb]

https://twitter.com/yang2020mass/status/1144522463474278400?s=21

He wanted to get in first, but apparently Gillibrand is more important. Seriously, screw NBC, screw joke candidates who can’t differentiate themselves and just take up speaking time. It’s outrageous

Disgusting anti-Asian racism shown by MSNBC.

[MillennialModerate]

The hell, did even the moderate candidates raise their hand to give illegals free health care ...

WHY ?! That’s a losing issue. Literally giving Trump life.

He’s the luckiest MFer alive

[Some of My Best Friends Are Gay]

https://twitter.com/yang2020mass/status/1144522463474278400?s=21

He wanted to get in first, but apparently Gillibrand is more important. Seriously, screw NBC, screw joke candidates who can’t differentiate themselves and just take up speaking time. It’s outrageous

Andrew Yang is a joke candidate. what are you talking about?

[MillennialModerate]

Did even the moderate candidates raise there hand on the question of giving free health care to illegals? WHY?! That gives Trump LIFE in this race.... life he doesn’t need

[izixs]

Because this is the Democratic primary for starters?

Also, by taking bold stands that contrast with the current, terrible, administration, one can use that dislike to move public opinion on these things. Most folks don't like or trust Trump, and so providing contrasts to him is generally good.

The trouble comes in selling those contrasts. Not everyone on stage can do that effectively. Some can do it, even on this issue. Just gotta reject the right wing framing of the issue and make it a human rights issue. Tear down the other associated talking points as needed, bring up that most of them are designed to back up a morally bankrupt policy of hate anyway and aren't worthy of their time, and bam, you get converts.

And right now, at this stage, getting converts is perhaps easier to do than in the lead up to the general. So might as well take a risky position that seems popular in the party and try to ride it to something down the road.

[Buzz]

The Democratic Party has turned into a complete joke.  You can tell Biden doesn't even believe half the stuff that he's saying.  Democrats have gone so FAR LEFT, that it is uncontrollable.  The ideas proposed last night were absurd.  You can't win a general election with those ideals, American's arnt having it.

[Dr. Arch]

The Democratic Party has turned into a complete joke.  You can tell Biden doesn't even believe half the stuff that he's saying.  Democrats have gone so FAR LEFT, that it is uncontrollable.  The ideas proposed last night were absurd.  You can't win a general election with those ideals, American's arnt having it.

Yet putting children in "detention centers" without sanitary conditions is within the realm of acceptability to win a general election? Get outta here.

[Hollywood]

The amount of time, money and resources the Democrat Party intends to spend on illegal immigrants is egregious.