Merkel: Europe must unite to stand up to China, Russia and US
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  Merkel: Europe must unite to stand up to China, Russia and US
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Author Topic: Merkel: Europe must unite to stand up to China, Russia and US  (Read 936 times)
Thunder98
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« on: May 15, 2019, 10:28:41 PM »

Western Europe standing up to the US is completely unprecedented in modern history.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/15/angela-merkel-interview-europe-eu-unite-challenge-us-russia-china?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2019, 10:44:01 PM »


Its something of a role reversal in terms of who the dominate player in the exchange was, but this certainly applied in the 19th century as well only with Europe dominating the other three and certainly not united in doing so.
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Computer89
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2019, 11:20:24 PM »

Pay 2% of GDP on Defense first.

Also if the EU wants to stand up to the US and they refuse to pay their 2% fee the US should make sure their are some consequences for this .
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LoneStarDem
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2019, 06:56:12 AM »

How long before we see POTUS Trump removing all US Military troops from Germany ?
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Omega21
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2019, 07:00:46 AM »

Pay 2% of GDP on Defense first.

Also if the EU wants to stand up to the US and they refuse to pay their 2% fee the US should make sure their are some consequences for this .

What fee are you talking about? Good Lord, there is no "NATO FEE", it simply does not exist.

Each country pays into its own defence budget, and the 2% is a "NATO recommendation", not a fee.

The EU military budget is around $230 Billion, so yeah, I think it is enough, considering that it is on par with China (a country with 3x the population), and 4 times the amount Russia invests.

So yeah, unlike what you think, no one is invading Europe if you pull out, seeing as it is the 2nd/3rd biggest spender after the US.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2019, 01:43:43 PM »

Merkel has done more to divide Europe than any leader post-2005.
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Grassroots
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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2019, 12:45:21 PM »

Go on Europe. While you keep your EU and mass migration and native population loss, we will be joining the table of actual global powers. Have fun! Smiley

(Ps. Maybe you all should take notes of Italy)
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Colin
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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2019, 09:46:21 PM »


This was kind of inevitable. Even before Trump gave a shock to the Eurocrats, Europe and the US were drifting apart. Even the honeymoon period of US-Europe relations under Obama were just delaying the inevitable. Without the threat of the Soviet Union, there is no major international rival to keep the US and EU joined together. Russia just isn't scary enough to the EU powers for them to want to give the US as much leeway as they did during the Cold War. People are laughing at them up thread for not even spending 2% on defense but it's not really needed. They've got enough of a deterrent even without the US to keep the Russians from doing anything but play proxy warrior in Ukraine and the Caucasus.

At the end of the day, US and EU have different interests which is going to lead to a fundamental split in how they handle international affairs.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2019, 06:34:55 AM »

Go on Europe. While you keep your EU and  mass migration and native population loss, we will be joining the table of actual global powers. Have fun! Smiley
Takes one to know one...
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2019, 08:12:12 AM »

A divided Europe is essentially condemning itself to be other powers' playground, because European states on its own, even those like Germany, are just too weak. Even if you oppose the notion of a European integration as we know it, I can't see why you'd oppose European countries devising a partnership to defend the continent's interests (because European countires have a lot of common interests).
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2019, 08:15:15 AM »

Pay 2% of GDP on Defense first.

Also if the EU wants to stand up to the US and they refuse to pay their 2% fee the US should make sure their are some consequences for this .

What fee are you talking about? Good Lord, there is no "NATO FEE", it simply does not exist.

Each country pays into its own defence budget, and the 2% is a "NATO recommendation", not a fee.

The EU military budget is around $230 Billion, so yeah, I think it is enough, considering that it is on par with China (a country with 3x the population), and 4 times the amount Russia invests.

So yeah, unlike what you think, no one is invading Europe if you pull out, seeing as it is the 2nd/3rd biggest spender after the US.

It looks good on the paper, but the EU militaries aren't integrated, or even properly coordinated to act as one force. It's basically like the U.S. without its army, relying on state militias (with huge differences in budget, capabilities and equipment) jumping together in time of crisis.
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UncleSam
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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2019, 09:31:11 AM »

I mean screw Merkel, we saved their asses at least three times in the last hundred years. Macron too.

Just withdraw our troops and let them worry about their problems. Zero reason to give them any help at all if they wanna be prissy about it.
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dead0man
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2019, 10:24:17 AM »

If Europe/NATO/US/the West was smart they'd delegate roles.  Like Norway specializes in Destroyers, anti-sub aircraft and Medivac.  Germany gets MBTs, attack subs, mobile AA and sidearms.  UK gets missile cruisers, battleships, tankers and light tanks.  France could do carriers and field artillery.  The Dutch make good rifles.  etc and so on.  There is some of this now, sure, but there could be a lot more.  If the UK still wants to develop their own destroyers "'cause we can never trust them dirty Swedes", then perhaps Europe isn't as united as it thinks it is and history repeating itself is only a matter of time.  Perhaps we'll see the Bundeswehr marching through Paris and Warsaw again in our life times.
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Omega21
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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2019, 12:01:44 PM »

If Europe/NATO/US/the West was smart they'd delegate roles.  Like Norway specializes in Destroyers, anti-sub aircraft and Medivac.  Germany gets MBTs, attack subs, mobile AA and sidearms.  UK gets missile cruisers, battleships, tankers and light tanks.  France could do carriers and field artillery.  The Dutch make good rifles.  etc and so on.  There is some of this now, sure, but there could be a lot more.  If the UK still wants to develop their own destroyers "'cause we can never trust them dirty Swedes", then perhaps Europe isn't as united as it thinks it is and history repeating itself is only a matter of time.  Perhaps we'll see the Bundeswehr marching through Paris and Warsaw again in our life times.

The UK is leaving and would be an unreliable partner as they are usually more loyal to the US than European interests.

Other than that, I agree, each country should specialize in what they are good at.

Pay 2% of GDP on Defense first.

Also if the EU wants to stand up to the US and they refuse to pay their 2% fee the US should make sure their are some consequences for this .

What fee are you talking about? Good Lord, there is no "NATO FEE", it simply does not exist.

Each country pays into its own defence budget, and the 2% is a "NATO recommendation", not a fee.

The EU military budget is around $230 Billion, so yeah, I think it is enough, considering that it is on par with China (a country with 3x the population), and 4 times the amount Russia invests.

So yeah, unlike what you think, no one is invading Europe if you pull out, seeing as it is the 2nd/3rd biggest spender after the US.

It looks good on the paper, but the EU militaries aren't integrated, or even properly coordinated to act as one force. It's basically like the U.S. without its army, relying on state militias (with huge differences in budget, capabilities and equipment) jumping together in time of crisis.

And yes, I am aware of that, and I do support Military cooperation and integration to achieve better efficiency, but not an "EU Army" without nations.

Still, the EU would be more than capable to handle Russia, even as things are currently.

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