Nixon led George Wallace in the South by 9 points in a hypothetical 1972 poll (user search)
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  Nixon led George Wallace in the South by 9 points in a hypothetical 1972 poll (search mode)
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Author Topic: Nixon led George Wallace in the South by 9 points in a hypothetical 1972 poll  (Read 3064 times)
Alben Barkley
KYWildman
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Posts: 19,282
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Political Matrix
E: -2.97, S: -5.74

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« on: May 13, 2019, 11:56:07 PM »
« edited: May 14, 2019, 12:01:23 AM by KYWildman »

I imagine you would have actually gotten a pretty similar county split to Reagan/Carter in 1980, as uncomfortable as that is for the "Dixiecrats were the first to switch to the GOP" narrative.

Facts are "narratives" now? I mean it's an objective fact that Dixiecrats were the first to switch to the GOP, in direct response to the Civil Rights Act. Johnson wasn't even allowed on the ballot in Alabama and was labeled "National Democrat" in Mississippi, where he was wiped out by "Mississippi Republican" Goldwater, who himself was wiped out in every single other region of the country, even the slightly less racist upper South. To emphasize, states that had never voted Republican for a century, only ever leaving the Democratic Party to vote for other racist Dixiecrats in 1948 and 1960 (also in response to pro-Civil Rights moves by the Democratic candidate), suddenly voted in massive numbers for a Republican who just so happened to be anti-Civil Rights Act over a southern Democrat who just so happened to have just signed the Civil Rights Act. But I'm sure that had nothing to do with it! It was just a total coincidence that these states fled en masse to a party they had never in their lives even considered voting for before...

And no, Dixie once again voting for a Dixiecrat would mean nothing. Of course they would vote for the most racist candidate regardless of party at that time. But it's a moot point because Wallace couldn't have won the nomination anyway, so he only could have run third party like 1968. The Deep South voting for him then didn't mean they weren't already well on their way towards fully embracing the GOP any more than them doing it again in 1972 would. It would only have delayed the inevitable. Once it was clear the Democrats were done harboring racists but the GOP would welcome them with open arms, they were gone.
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Alben Barkley
KYWildman
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,282
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.97, S: -5.74

P P
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2019, 12:15:26 AM »
« Edited: May 14, 2019, 12:38:38 AM by KYWildman »

I imagine you would have actually gotten a pretty similar county split to Reagan/Carter in 1980, as uncomfortable as that is for the "Dixiecrats were the first to switch to the GOP" narrative.

There would have been some major differences as compared to 1980. Nixon would have done way better with black voters than Reagan and much worse with Deep South whites, even compared to Carter's very decent showing with that group. Nixon also would have done a lot better than Reagan in New England.

My point is that Reagan did not win the Southern states that he won in 1980 by winning the areas that had supported Wallace in 1968.  He won those states by thin margins due to suburban strength, and he lost most of the counties that the eloquent users of Atlas would now classify as filled with "racist hicks" - voters that went to Carter, per county results.

Suburban Nixon voters in these states were probably just as racist, and Carter's win in the South in 1976 and narrow loss in 1980 was just an exception that proved the rule. It doesn't somehow mean that the nation wasn't well on its way to an urban/rural re-alignment driven largely by race. It just means that, in two elections where race wasn't a big issue, the last vestiges of the Democratic Party in these states were just strong enough to favor good 'ol boy Jimmy Carter (himself far from racist) over Northern moderate Gerald Ford and Hollywood actor Ronald Reagan. But that was cultural, not racial. And it would change by the next election and never let up. So I really don't get your point at all.

"The narrative" is not somehow refuted by Jimmy Carter's performance in rural Southern counties in 1976/1980, nor would it have been refuted by Wallace winning those same counties in 1972. All that you have pointed out is more evidence of the slow but steady party re-alignment that was well underway by this point. Suburban voters in Mississippi hypothetically preferring the slightly less racist Republican Richard Nixon while rural voters hypothetically preferred the more explicitly racist Dixiecrat George Wallace would not somehow mean the realignment wasn't happening or that race had nothing to do with it. Party re-alignments are typically slow processes that take decades to fully take shape, and this one started as far back as 1944 at least, when FDR started bleeding some support to Dixiecrat electors.

Also, for the record, Goldwater (who Reagan supported) won every single county in Mississippi, and he did best among rural counties. And even if it were true that those rural counties were the last to flip solidly Republican, all that would mean is that generations of heavily entrenched Democratic support were hard to shake off completely. It doesn't at all refute the overall "narrative" of the South as a whole flocking to the GOP at the precise moment the Democratic Party abandoned the racism of the Dixiecrats while the GOP dogwhistled to them. It doesn't at all mean that was somehow a coincidence.
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Alben Barkley
KYWildman
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,282
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.97, S: -5.74

P P
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2019, 02:13:56 AM »

KYWildman, you really need to perform more research. The South was trending away from Democrats well before 1964. More well off voters were now able to vote Republican, mainly because of economic and racial reasons. (see the growing suburbs of the East Southern Coast) Now many of these voters went back to the Democrats in 1964, and deep southern Dixiecrats vice versa, but in 1968 they went back to Republicans, as they could afford to. The Dixiecrats, being more fiscally populist, went to George Wallace, as they could not afford to vote Republican. Many outer southerners such as those in WV still voted Democratic as there were less racial tensions in those areas plus because of their economic status.

No, you really need to read my posts in their entirety and comprehend them. I explicitly noted the trend in the South away from the Dems going back since 1944, but it only actually broke for the GOP in 1964. Some of those Deep South states had NEVER voted for a REPUBLICAN before, even if they had broken for a racist Dixiecrat third party candidate against Truman or JFK because they supported Civil Rights. And the absolutely massive swing even from just 1960 to 1964 alone in some of these states cannot be overstated, regardless of any trends. The plain and obvious conclusion is that "racial reasons" was by far the largest contributing factor, and that is what my argument was. I was refuting RINO Tom's nonsensical mental gymnastics trying to explain how ackshually Barry Goldwater and the GOP loved black people and the Democrats have been the real racists all along. I was never denying that the South had been increasingly trending away from the Democrats in direct correlation with the Democrats' trend towards Civil Rights -- that was my entire point!
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