Midwest Public School Abolishment Proposition

[DanielX]

I have a possibly insane idea for this:

Create a private 'Tele-School' system. Basically, in libraries, community centers, etc rooms are rented/made available for teachers and students, essentially tiny private or community-funded public schools. Said teachers use online and televised materials from a central 'Tele-School' HQ to aid in instruction of certain materials. These materials/broadcasts can also be purchased/rented for a small fee, for homeschooling.

I am going to, ironically, give away most of my $200 million fortune on this 'mad' libertarian scheme. With $50 million going to the National Space Foundation, and now  I plan on using $100 million for a mixture of venture capital for establishing this and as aid for establishing  community schools (I think I talked about those a while ago, a sort of homeschool-league/private-school hybrid in which parents contribute either money or time towards teaching. Basically, I think such small semi-schools are better then regular public schools for teaching early grades, while encouraging learning in students for later self-pursuit of knowledge, as well as possibly offering community college type courses at the high school level). I might go for broke and sell most of Smith Enterprises as well.

[CO-OWL]

I pretty much agree with the arguments of those opposed to this proposition (Thank you, Jas, Dean, Peter Bell and Gabu). I hope the Midwest will heavily vote against it!

Concerning the new tasks of librarians I remember the old saying: "Those who can, do. Those who cannot, teach. And those who cannot teach become librarians."

[CheeseWhiz]

In a modern society every person needs a solid base in everything (I've said that four times now). If your vocabulary is extremely limited how will you, say, explain what sorts of pain you are experiencing when you go to a doctor? Besides; if you don't educate your children China and India won't be nice to you and delay high-school graduations. A building with shaky foundations, no matter how aesthetically pleasing, will be condemned.

Unless our children have the best education on earth we will fall behind.

I've said this four times now:  Everything you need to know will come to you in the course of life.  Example:  You don't know how to describe your pain to him now, but once you're there you and him can figure it out, and you'll have expanded your vocabulary.

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Yes, it is, as long as they've been pushed into it all their life.  You know what though, this has become more of me defending unschooling than you asking questions realating to this proposition.  Could we please either delay or move this argument to a new thread.

If they don't have a Library, they propoably don't have schools.  The Outback and Alaska are two of the breeding grounds for homeschooling, because there were no schools close enough.

Be patient, I'm working on it, don't rush me!  The wording just isn't right yet, but it should be finished either today or tomorrow.

[CheeseWhiz]

Effectively, this:

1. Slashes school budgets by 45%.

You mean 55%, right?

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They can become Librarians, who will teach if the kids wish to be taught.

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If they so wish.  They can also go the Private School, Homeschool or Unschool.  Really, this is like voluntary school.  Some of you are telling me that will overcrowd the Library, while others are saying no kid will go to voluntary school, which is it?

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We can convert former Public Schools into the new Library Learning Centers.  First grade is a little too young to be learning to read, IMHO.  Again, that money will be going to create more Libraries, improving Libraries and converting Public Schools into Libraries.

How could it possible not?

[CheeseWhiz]

Concerning the new tasks of librarians I remember the old saying: "Those who can, do. Those who cannot, teach. And those who cannot teach become librarians."

How can you not teach?  As long as you know a goo deal about what you're teaching, than you can teach.  Also, a lot of teachers will probably become librarians.

[Јas]

First off, I'd like to thank the many people who have joined the discussion, noting that many agree with me in believing this proposition to be inherently detrimental to the region. Unfortunately, it appears when it comes down to Midwesterners alone, the balance of opinion is much more evenly split.

I repeat that I believe this proposal will have the most detrimental affects on Midwestern society since its inception.

There is no way, no way that the private school system and public libraries could accomadate the huge numbers that would seek their services. Not without long, long term planning.
Crime will increase both in the short and long term, as many children no longer in school will be on the streets. Over the long term, their lack of skills will make the acquisition of employment much more difficult.
Unemployment will increase in the short and long term, as immediately thousands of teachers lose their jobs, and in the long run what companies will establish in our region which would have a dearth of suitably qualified individuals.

And the new proposed system is, in itself, unworkable. Who are these field experts? What will they be paid? How many will we need? What exactly will their job entail? How much will the library infrastructure change cost? Who will organise the system? etc. etc.

Education is a key factor in long term economic growth, and in societal stability. It is no coincidence that the 20th century has seen the most advances in our lifestyles and was the century when mass education became a reality.

This proposition will lead to chaos, and I refuse to stand by and allow it to happen. It is unacceptable in theory and in practice.

[2952-0-0]

I've said this four times now:  Everything you need to know will come to you in the course of life.  Example:  You don't know how to describe your pain to him now, but once you're there you and him can figure it out, and you'll have expanded your vocabulary.

Patient: Doctor, I'm feeling pain right now in my belly!!
Doctor: What happened? What did you do?
Patient: err...umm...do you have a thousand-page dictionary in your office? I can't how I feel!
Doctor: Here you go.
*patient looks for hours and hours and hours, by which time he finally realizes he has an "ulcer"*

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Okay, so I'm supposed to believe that kids are forced to go to a top university? No, you can't do such a thing without much dedication. Even Bill Gates, who was a Harvard dropout, relied on his determination to create his empire.

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What's the point of this proposition? At least opebo, when he advocates a $15 minumum wage, knows how his intended purpose will come about. You seem to be living  in some la-la-land in which someone can succeed in life without any formal education.

[CheeseWhiz]

There is no way, no way that the private school system and public libraries could accomadate the huge numbers that would seek their services. Not without long, long term planning.

First you say no one will bother to go to the Library for independent study, then you say that the Libraries will be overcrowded, the back to the Lazy argument, no they’ll be overcrowded again, you guys are sending mixed messages.  The former Public Schools will be converted into Libraries, which should accommodate much more students then the current Public Schools are accommodating.

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Maybe the parent should take responsibility for their own kids?  They aren’t the Governments, they’re the Parents responsibility.
I find it insulting and disturbing that you think people have to go to school to be prepared and qualified to have a job.

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The Teachers can become Librarians; we certainly will need a lot more of those when we expand the Libraries so much.

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Professionals who actually do what they’re teaching.  It’s a Public service.  It’s voluntary, we’ll have as many as we can, but it’s not a requirement to have so many.  Just answering questions and maybe doing demonstrations, if they can.  Libraries already do this, but I hope to try and increase the numbers.  I don’t understand this question, could you explain further?  Who organizes the Libraries and Public Schools now?  If you have any more questions, I’ll be happy to answer them.

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It’s not a theory, it already works:  People already do all that this entails and it works.  The Libraries will undergo somewhat of a change, but it’s really just improving them.

[CheeseWhiz]

I've said this four times now:  Everything you need to know will come to you in the course of life.  Example:  You don't know how to describe your pain to him now, but once you're there you and him can figure it out, and you'll have expanded your vocabulary.

Patient: Doctor, I'm feeling pain right now in my belly!!
Doctor: What happened? What did you do?
Patient: err...umm...do you have a thousand-page dictionary in your office? I can't how I feel!
Doctor: Here you go.
*patient looks for hours and hours and hours, by which time he finally realizes he has an "ulcer"*

Um, isn’t it the Doctors job to tell you what you have?  I avoid Doctors like the plague, but I’m pretty sure they diagnose the pain for you, not the other way around.

When I go to a Mechanic I’m not gonna know exactly what’s going on with my car, they’re the ones that are suppose to know that.  I do, however, know enough to tell them if I’m hearing a “ping” or a “bong” or whatever else I’m hearing, and they’ll figure out what it is.  The Patient will know the difference between a sharp, stabbing pain and a dull, bruised pain.

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Okay, so I'm supposed to believe that kids are forced to go to a top university? No, you can't do such a thing without much dedication. Even Bill Gates, who was a Harvard dropout, relied on his determination to create his empire.[/quote]

Bill Gates proves my point:  You don’t need school to be successful.  I find it very admirable that he dropped out of Harvard and created an Empire like this through determination.  “Formal Education” has nothing to do with becoming a success, but determination has everything to do with it.

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What's the point of this proposition? At least opebo, when he advocates a $15 minumum wage, knows how his intended purpose will come about. You seem to be living  in some la-la-land in which someone can succeed in life without any formal education.
[/quote]

Like you said, Bill Gates dropped out of school, also Lincoln was self taught and Spielberg’s mom let him skip school as much as he liked so he could go and video-tape things.  I’m not in a “la-la-land,” it’s been proven to work.  It be silly for me to try and say you couldn’t become a success if you did have a formal education, and it’s equally silly for you to say you can’t become one without one.

My point before was that if they didn’t have a Library, they didn’t have a Public School, either.  This means we would be subtracting nothing from them, like you seemed to imply we would be.

[2952-0-0]

First you say no one will bother to go to the Library for independent study, then you say that the Libraries will be overcrowded, the back to the Lazy argument, no they’ll be overcrowded again, you guys are sending mixed messages.  The former Public Schools will be converted into Libraries, which should accommodate much more students then the current Public Schools are accommodating.

The younger students will not want to go to library voluntarily. The older students who do understand the importance of learning will overcrowd the library and reduce the amount of resources available for other readers.

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It is simply insulting  that you think we don't know what responsibility means.

And, yes it is correct, you don't need school to get a job. Your career would, of course, consist of picking up garbage at dumpsters. Even as a burger flipper at McD's you will need math to operate the cash machines.

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So what will happen to this generation of illiterates who do not have a solid foundation? It will be too late to learn everything you need when you need it by then.

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So, we will have thousands of our (remaining) experts tied up in libraries just to show four-year-olds how a computer works. Doesn't that waste manpower that could be used doing research? A professional teacher is cheaper and better.

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If children were as mature as adults this would work. But they are not. A seven-year-old cannot be expected to go to library every day. Not to mention that libraries will no longer have any more space for adult readers.

[2952-0-0]

Um, isn’t it the Doctors job to tell you what you have?  I avoid Doctors like the plague, but I’m pretty sure they diagnose the pain for you, not the other way around.

When I go to a Mechanic I’m not gonna know exactly what’s going on with my car, they’re the ones that are suppose to know that.  I do, however, know enough to tell them if I’m hearing a “ping” or a “bong” or whatever else I’m hearing, and they’ll figure out what it is.  The Patient will know the difference between a sharp, stabbing pain and a dull, bruised pain.

If you don't know how you feel the doctor cannot diagnose. Is the pain stinging, sore, rumbling, or what?

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Bill Gates already had high-school education, and he was still able to succeed because it was Harvard, the  best university in the world that still gave  him some knowledge, he dropped out of, not elementary school.

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Again, Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, the best school on this planet, after getting a full high-school education, so he very well did have formal education, and Lincoln and Spielburg represent the  few seven-year-olds who will bo to the library.

[2952-0-0]

Another concern: what about extra-curricular activities such as athletics, student leadership, music classes? Who will provide counseling to kids? We're not robots and need more than academics to succeed.

[CheeseWhiz]

First you say no one will bother to go to the Library for independent study, then you say that the Libraries will be overcrowded, the back to the Lazy argument, no they’ll be overcrowded again, you guys are sending mixed messages.  The former Public Schools will be converted into Libraries, which should accommodate much more students then the current Public Schools are accommodating.

The younger students will not want to go to library voluntarily. The older students who do understand the importance of learning will overcrowd the library and reduce the amount of resources available for other readers.

Thank you for clarifying.  Right now, I believe the School system forces the young to learn too soon.  These older students is when they should really be learning (7 year old+)  Besides, we are giving more money to the Library to try and expand them.

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It is simply insulting  that you think we don't know what responsibility means.

And, yes it is correct, you don't need school to get a job. Your career would, of course, consist of picking up garbage at dumpsters. Even as a burger flipper at McD's you will need math to operate the cash machines.[/quote]

That’s not what I meant to imply.  I meant to say that more and more parents don’t know the meaning of the word.

You know, the School system told Mrs. Edison that her son, Thomas, couldn’t be taught.  She decided to teach him herself.  I’m also pretty sure it was him who decided to read every book in the Library.  Take a good look up, there’s probably a light bulb in every room of ever house almost.  But, he couldn’t be taught *pssh*

It is insulting that you think I won’t be able to accomplish anything more than picking up garbage.  You know, I have a clear advantage over those of you who go to school, I learn 365 days a year, 7 days a week and at least 14 hours a day.

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So what will happen to this generation of illiterates who do not have a solid foundation? It will be too late to learn everything you need when you need it by then.
[/quote]

It’s never too late to learn.

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So, we will have thousands of our (remaining) experts tied up in libraries just to show four-year-olds how a computer works. Doesn't that waste manpower that could be used doing research? A professional teacher is cheaper and better.[/quote]

Um cheaper?  It’s a Public Service, they can volunteer when they aren’t doing research.  A four year old need to know how a computer works?  Sounds like your pushing them too hard, too fast to me.  Why can’t parents show their kids how this works?

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If children were as mature as adults this would work. But they are not. A seven-year-old cannot be expected to go to library every day. Not to mention that libraries will no longer have any more space for adult readers.
[/quote]

Nope, a seven year old should be at home, learning how to read, write and do math, if they want to.  If they want to go to the Library, they can.  Dean, I’m sorry, I don’t understand where you’re coming from, and you don’t understand where I’m coming from.  I think you’re being ridiculous, and I think the same about your arguments, it’s going no where.  I will not be continuing this conversation on this thread, because I wish to make room for those who have questions about the proposition.  If you wish, I’ll make a thread where we can continue, but not here.

[CheeseWhiz]

Another concern: what about extra-curricular activities such as athletics, student leadership, music classes? Who will provide counseling to kids? We're not robots and need more than academics to succeed.

We’re a pretty small place, but we have running organizations and music organizations.  Leadership can be learned a number of ways, I don’t think you need school for that.

[CheeseWhiz]

I don’t want the Libraries to be Charter Schools!  I need my Libraries!   My proposition would keep them being Libraries, while having people who can help you out in a specific field.  I don’t want to turn the Libraries into Charter Schools.

[Everett]

I don’t want the Libraries to be Charter Schools!  I need my Libraries!   My proposition would keep them being Libraries, while having people who can help you out in a specific field.  I don’t want to turn the Libraries into Charter Schools.

How would we ensure that children are learning what they need to know in areas besides their own specific interests?

[CheeseWhiz]

I don’t want the Libraries to be Charter Schools!  I need my Libraries!   My proposition would keep them being Libraries, while having people who can help you out in a specific field.  I don’t want to turn the Libraries into Charter Schools.

How would we ensure that children are learning what they need to know in areas besides their own specific interests?

That comes by itself.  If they need to know it, then they’ll find out because they need to know.

[CheeseWhiz]

Again, Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, the best school on this planet, after getting a full high-school education, so he very well did have formal education, and Lincoln and Spielburg represent the  few seven-year-olds who will bo to the library.

I see.  Here's a list of other exceptions.

[Јas]

First you say no one will bother to go to the Library for independent study, then you say that the Libraries will be overcrowded, the back to the Lazy argument, no they’ll be overcrowded again, you guys are sending mixed messages.  The former Public Schools will be converted into Libraries, which should accommodate much more students then the current Public Schools are accommodating.

No, my argument has remained the same. Even if this was your theory was meticulously planned and provided for, it would take many, many, many years to put in place properly. As soon as education funding disappears here, chaos will consume the Midwest.

Your theory ignores the lack of economies of scale. Efficiency costs would cripple the system.

Also, how would turning public schools into libraries increase capacity?

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Maybe the parent should take responsibility for their own kids?  They aren’t the Governments, they’re the Parents responsibility.
I find it insulting and disturbing that you think people have to go to school to be prepared and qualified to have a job.
[/quote]

Are you suggesting parents should be held criminally liable for the crimes of their children?
Your other proposition proposes to allow 5-year olds decide on rational career choices, yet here you say that parents are fully responsible for their childrens actions. There appears to be a contradiction here.

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The Teachers can become Librarians; we certainly will need a lot more of those when we expand the Libraries so much.
[/quote]

And how will this be paid for? You proposed slashing the budget that was paying the teachers. If they all became librarians, we wouldn't save very much money at all from this plan.

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Professionals who actually do what they’re teaching.  It’s a Public service.  It’s voluntary, we’ll have as many as we can, but it’s not a requirement to have so many.  Just answering questions and maybe doing demonstrations, if they can.  Libraries already do this, but I hope to try and increase the numbers.  I don’t understand this question, could you explain further?  Who organizes the Libraries and Public Schools now?  If you have any more questions, I’ll be happy to answer them.
[/quote]

You expect to recruit voluntarily and without pay? How much time do you suppose these people would be able to devote to this? How will they cater for the very wide range of students before them, who will vary widely in terms of age and capabilities?

[2952-0-0]

Again, Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, the best school on this planet, after getting a full high-school education, so he very well did have formal education, and Lincoln and Spielburg represent the  few seven-year-olds who will bo to the library.

I see.  Here's a list of other exceptions.

If parents have the time and effort to homeschool kids, go for it. Homeschool counts as formal education. Looking up random stuff at a library doesn't. But there should be tests to ensure parents are teaching.

Besides; those people are still a tiny minority.

[CheeseWhiz]

First you say no one will bother to go to the Library for independent study, then you say that the Libraries will be overcrowded, the back to the Lazy argument, no they’ll be overcrowded again, you guys are sending mixed messages.  The former Public Schools will be converted into Libraries, which should accommodate much more students then the current Public Schools are accommodating.

No, my argument has remained the same. Even if this was your theory was meticulously planned and provided for, it would take many, many, many years to put in place properly. As soon as education funding disappears here, chaos will consume the Midwest.

Your theory ignores the lack of economies of scale. Efficiency costs would cripple the system.

Also, how would turning public schools into libraries increase capacity?

Well, that’s good then, but I was pointing out that the opposition in general seemed to be giving mixed messages.

I fail to see how it would be different then Public Schools, which never have enough funding.  This would help, since both Public Schools and Libraries don’t have enough funding, combining about half of the Public School money with the whole Library money should be about right, I’d think.

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Are you suggesting parents should be held criminally liable for the crimes of their children?
Your other proposition proposes to allow 5-year olds decide on rational career choices, yet here you say that parents are fully responsible for their childrens actions. There appears to be a contradiction here.[/quote]

Why do we have to either be on one extreme or the other?  Parents should take the responsibility of their kids, but not force them to do anything against their will, just be their guide in life.  The Government can do nothing to enforce this, and it shouldn’t, I just hope that parents may consider doing this.

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And how will this be paid for? You proposed slashing the budget that was paying the teachers. If they all became librarians, we wouldn't save very much money at all from this plan.[/quote]

Okay then, how much money is in the budget for Public school upkeep?  We can pretty much cut that completely.  There’s also two years for them to find other jobs, so I doubt all will become Librarians, but we will be able to give almost all of them back their jobs.

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You expect to recruit voluntarily and without pay? How much time do you suppose these people would be able to devote to this? How will they cater for the very wide range of students before them, who will vary widely in terms of age and capabilities?[/quote]

They wouldn’t be a crucial part of the entire project, they’d just be there when we could get them, probably most of the time on weekends.

[CheeseWhiz]

Again, Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, the best school on this planet, after getting a full high-school education, so he very well did have formal education, and Lincoln and Spielburg represent the  few seven-year-olds who will bo to the library.

I see.  Here's a list of other exceptions.

If parents have the time and effort to homeschool kids, go for it. Homeschool counts as formal education. Looking up random stuff at a library doesn't. But there should be tests to ensure parents are teaching.

Besides; those people are still a tiny minority.

Parents don’t need time and effort to unschool their kids.  Also, homeschoolers learn at such different speeds and in different areas, that it’s impossible to test them.  Even if it wasn’t, I don’t see how it’s the Government’s job to dictate what you can and cannot do with your kids.

Besides:  Compared to those who are not Homeschooled, we are a minority.  Yet we amazingly have so many famous people, like Albert Einstein.

My mom gave me a list of links on the topic of Homeschooling and unschooling:

John Taylor Gatto, NY State Teacher of the Year '91 (Twice for NYC, I think)
http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html

Standardized Testing and Its Victims
By Alfie Kohn (famous author and commentator on the educational scene)
http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/staiv.htm

Unschooling in Canada
http://www.unschoolingcanada.com/

Homeschooling Research FAQ from Home School Legal Defense Association http://www.hslda.org/research/faq.asp#1

Life Learning Magazine, published in Toronto
http://www.lifelearningmagazine.com/philosophy.html

Gatto's website bio
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/aboutus/john.htm

Actually haven’t read these, since I already know I’ll I need to about unschooling, but my mom tells me they’re good for people who don’t know about it.

[Everett]

Nothing personal, but I officially withdraw my signature. This is not going anywhere, and I cannot back something this extreme.

[CheeseWhiz]

Nothing personal, but I officially withdraw my signature. This is not going anywhere, and I cannot back something this extreme.

Sometimes bold initiatives have to be taken, I’m just sorry we don’t have your support.

[Alcon]

I'm sorry, but your signature is intensely amusing.  Bill Gates went to the single most exclusive high school in Washington state.  He dropped out of college, which has nothing to do with your bill.  Most of the others are long dead, and from an age when high school graduation was not necessary commonplace.  Which is what this bill will return is to.

I will consider support when you show me a reasonable way that a low-income, urban child can get an education if he so desires, as well as tell me how a first grader or kindergartener would benefit from this.

I've always liked you, CheeseWhiz, but it's clear to me that you haven't gotten out of your suburban neighbourhood much.