Midwest Public School Abolishment Proposition

[CheeseWhiz]

Understanding is also greatly aided by demonstration - science experiments would become a thing of the past, and therefore the science education of students would be drastically damaged, perhaps wiping out an entire generation of science students.

This can, (and will,) all be moved to the Libraries.

The suggestion that science experiments which should be conducted in purpose designed laboratories could be conducted in libraries is ridiculous.

Even if you were willing to attach these labs to libraries it would cost millions upon billions of dollars as a down investment.

I’m sorry, I’m tired.  You’re right, that would be pretty dumb   Okay, this is what we’d do instead:

Bill is a professional scientist.  Jessica would like to learn Chemistry (Bill specializes in that and has a professional lab built for it.)  Bill comes to the Library as a “field expert.”  Jessica meets Bill and he makes an appointment to show her his lab.  He can not only teach you Chemistry, but he can also help her get work in the field.

I’m getting tired, fast.  Can
A) Everyone slow down just a little.  I appreciate the questions, but you aren’t going to change my mind.  I’m convinced people don’t need Public School to have a well educated society.
B) Daniel and Dubya help me out?

[CheeseWhiz]

...a.k.a. the ILV Will Never Speak to Me Again Proposition

(except not)

I believe everyone has raised lots of good points, but here's another one just for fun: what about non-visual learners?  Books aren't everyone's pieces of cake.  I personally learn best through demonstration and imitation... things that couldn't be accomplished through plain 'ol book learnin'.

Thank you.  I wish everyone could ask questions as nice as you

You raise quite a valid point.  I believe the Librarians and the field experts I was talking about before can -help with this.

[Emsworth]

My personal view is that public schooling is the least objectionable form of government interference in the market. Rather than taking a measure as controversial and divisive as complete abolition, adoption of a voucher system might be advisable.

[CheeseWhiz]

If you really, truly think this is true why don't you just drop out of school and do what you propose?

I'm not in school.

And before you go shouting that my parents brain-washed me, I’m not even sure if they agree with me.  I’m sure they do to a point, but how much I’m unsure.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Understanding is also greatly aided by demonstration - science experiments would become a thing of the past, and therefore the science education of students would be drastically damaged, perhaps wiping out an entire generation of science students.

This can, (and will,) all be moved to the Libraries.

The suggestion that science experiments which should be conducted in purpose designed laboratories could be conducted in libraries is ridiculous.

Even if you were willing to attach these labs to libraries it would cost millions upon billions of dollars as a down investment.

I’m sorry, I’m tired.  You’re right, that would be pretty dumb   Okay, this is what we’d do instead:

Bill is a professional scientist.  Jessica would like to learn Chemistry (Bill specializes in that and has a professional lab built for it.)  Bill comes to the Library as a “field expert.”  Jessica meets Bill and he makes an appointment to show her his lab.  He can not only teach you Chemistry, but he can also help her get work in the field.

I’m getting tired, fast.  Can
A) Everyone slow down just a little.  I appreciate the questions, but you aren’t going to change my mind.  I’m convinced people don’t need Public School to have a well educated society.
B) Daniel and Dubya help me out?

LOL at all of the problems with this.

[Gabu]

I’m sorry, I’m tired.  You’re right, that would be pretty dumb   Okay, this is what we’d do instead:

Bill is a professional scientist.  Jessica would like to learn Chemistry (Bill specializes in that and has a professional lab built for it.)  Bill comes to the Library as a “field expert.”  Jessica meets Bill and he makes an appointment to show her his lab.  He can not only teach you Chemistry, but he can also help her get work in the field.

I’m getting tired, fast.  Can
A) Everyone slow down just a little.  I appreciate the questions, but you aren’t going to change my mind.  I’m convinced people don’t need Public School to have a well educated society.
B) Daniel and Dubya help me out?

It seems to me that what you're suggesting is basically just a public school that isn't mandatory.  I can't see how this resembles a library anymore, at least in the sense of what one might expect a library to be.

[CheeseWhiz]

That said, how much math do you know?  I’m just curious.

Multivariable calculus, a fair bit of linear algebra, a lot of set theory... it's true that the basics of arithmetic are not very hard, but I really can't see someone getting up to the higher stuff in a matter of weeks.  At any rate, you're only considering your own experience, and it sounds like you're an abnormally fast learner, statistically speaking.  Many people have a much more difficult time grasping what we may consider basic knowledge.

Well, I guess I do dedicate myself to whatever I'm learning, but so has all my other siblings, (all 9 of them.)

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If it weren't for the fact that school was mandatory, I would probably have never learned a thing by age 12.  All I wanted to do at that age was play video games and do stuff with friends.  Learning things was the last thing on my mind.[/quote]

Because you were going to school, that was taken care of.  By the time I was 12 I liked video games, but they were second to learning things about Geography (my main interest for that year.)

You must be logged in to read this quote.

School up to grade 12 gives you a solid base of knowledge and ability in pretty well any field.  Being able to transition into college-level mathematics is a lot easier if you know algebra than if you don't even know arithmetic.  Or, being able to learn the intricacies of WWII in a detailed course on it is a lot easier if you know the general overview of what went on.  It would take a very long time to go into many fields if you didn't have that base that school provides.  What you're suggesting is for students to figure out at a very young age exactly what they want to do and then to put all of their eggs in that one basket.  This seems very dangerous, at best, even ignoring the issues regarding whether or not a young child could even do that.
[/quote]

No, I’m not saying that, but I think that’s how it works, most of the time.  I think what you do when you grow-up, (for lack of a better word,) is from closely related to what you wanted to do when you're in your early teens.  Still, if you do decide you’d really like to do something when your 32, I doubt it take you long to learn…  If you really want to.

[CheeseWhiz]

I’m sorry, I’m tired.  You’re right, that would be pretty dumb   Okay, this is what we’d do instead:

Bill is a professional scientist.  Jessica would like to learn Chemistry (Bill specializes in that and has a professional lab built for it.)  Bill comes to the Library as a “field expert.”  Jessica meets Bill and he makes an appointment to show her his lab.  He can not only teach you Chemistry, but he can also help her get work in the field.

I’m getting tired, fast.  Can
A) Everyone slow down just a little.  I appreciate the questions, but you aren’t going to change my mind.  I’m convinced people don’t need Public School to have a well educated society.
B) Daniel and Dubya help me out?

It seems to me that what you're suggesting is basically just a public school that isn't mandatory.  I can't see how this resembles a library anymore, at least in the sense of what one might expect a library to be.

No, it’s pretty much a Library with teachers.  You can learn by yourself, or you can ask someone, (a profession who actually does what they’re teaching or a teacher who knows that topic very well.)  The Library will certainly expand, and will resemble schools somewhat.

Not mandatory is a very good thing, IMO.

[CheeseWhiz]

My personal view is that public schooling is the least objectionable form of government interference in the market. Rather than taking a measure as controversial and divisive as complete abolition, adoption of a voucher system might be advisable.

Sorry, to busy trying to seal the fact that I’ll never hold office again to do that

Yeah, I'll do that if this fails, but first I'd like to try and pass what I really want.

[2952-0-0]

CheeseWhiz, do you have any idea what would happen?

I am currently in grade 11 and have started calculus in math and am preparing for several math contests. Why? Because I want to study engineering in university.

Is it remotely possible for, say, a 6 year old to decide, "I'm going to be a lawyer when I grow up", and then indulge in reading all sorts of political literature from then on?

Is it remotely possible for someone who is about to enter college to say, "Oh, no. I don't even know how to add fractions, and now I have to cover algebra, trigonomitry, geometry, etc, etc, all in two months?"

What makes this country full of bright and talented experts? It's because all (or most) of us have a solid foundation in all aspects of the curriculum. It requires so much specialization that much knowledge cannot be found at libraries. Public schools ensure that we all have the same opportunities no matter who we are.

And if public schools go, will child labour be next? Do you want your region to fall back into third-world status?

[CheeseWhiz]

Wait, run that by me one more…  Yeah, that’s what I thought you said: you want.  If you want something, nothing can stop you.  Wouldn’t you love to become friends with an actually engineer and learn from them how everything works?  My system would try to ensure that could happen.

No, a 6 year-old can’t be deciding what they want to do with their life because IMHO that’s about when they should start reading and doing math, (really it’s more like 7 or 8.)  Between 12 and 16 is when you’ll start developing interest that will be what you’re going to do when you “grow-up.”

I subscribe to this belief: “what you don’t know you don’t need it now.”  When that is realized it will be a “Beautiful Day.”

How on Earth is the abolishment of Public Schools and Child Labor related?

[2952-0-0]

Wait, run that by me one more…  Yeah, that’s what I thought you said: you want.  If you want something, nothing can stop you.  Wouldn’t you love to become friends with an actually engineer and learn from them how everything works?  My system would try to ensure that could happen.

True, but that guy cannot teach you everything about things that are vital to be an engineer: trigonomitry, algebra, geometry, statistics, etc because they have to work. Without enough knowledge you can't go anywhere.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Do you understand this is as ridiculous as opebo's $15 minimum wage or $4,000/month welfare cheques? Today's marketplace is flexible and we all have to switch occupations every few years. My dad is currently a salesman for internet products, and before he was a banker and a biologist. He is only able to switch occupations like this because he had a solid base when he was in school.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Today we all require a solid knowledge base while being very specialized. Anything that will be automated or offshored to India will be automated/offshored. Vending machines now put an end to venders on the street, agriculture has been enormously mechanized and remaining unskilled jobs in manufacturing are being sent to China or India. Pretty soon there may be no more jobs in a developed nation such as Atlasia that do not require college education.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Because child labour often comes with a lack of education.

[CheeseWhiz]

True, but there’s always weekends.  Plus, the guy knows exactly what you need to know, so it should take lots less time.

I wasn’t aware that switching occupations so much was the norm.  I think it’d only take a year max for someone of his age to learn what he needs to know to enter those occupations.  I’m sure he learned some of the things he needed to know to be a salesman of internet products from being a Banker, and some more from what he was before that, and before that, ect. ect. ect.  I really doubt that if your dad never went to school it wouldn’t take him more than two weeks to learn what he needed for his next job.

I say will say this once more: We aren’t getting rid of colleges!

So, let me get this straight:  Without Public schools we’ll all become uneducated, jobless, smelly apes?  I really don’t understand, how did we educate ourselves before there were Public Schools?

[PBrunsel]

Does this get rid of public libraries as well?

[CheeseWhiz]

Does this get rid of public libraries as well?

Not at all.  In fact, this gives a gigantic chunk of money to the Public Libraries.

[PBrunsel]

Does this get rid of public libraries as well?

Not at all.  In fact, this gives a gigantic chunk of money to the Public Libraries.

X PBrunsel

Beleive it or not  I was thinking of introducing something against public school lunches tommorrow. Well, I guess that this is here I won't have to.

[CheeseWhiz]

Does this get rid of public libraries as well?

Not at all.  In fact, this gives a gigantic chunk of money to the Public Libraries.

X PBrunsel

Beleive it or not  I was thinking of introducing something against public school lunches tommorrow. Well, I guess that this is here I won't have to.

All right!

[2952-0-0]

True, but there’s always weekends.  Plus, the guy knows exactly what you need to know, so it should take lots less time.

Yes, but the guy did not know what to teach. "Okay, kid. You don't know how to add fractions...where do I start?" Besides; you are aware that many people have to spend weekends doing "homework" like researching, making documents, etc...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Actually, my dad started by studying biology (it was in China in the 80s before he moved to Canada, where he continued). He went to a business school and got a master's degree. And don't forget one thing: you can't learn something just be reading books. You need experience, and that includes internships, co-op, volunteering, etc.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

How will you be ready for college if you aren't dead familiar with algebra or literature? It's amazing that in the top schools in Canada (U Toronto, U Western Ontario, U Waterloo) something like 30% of students fail in their first year!! And our high schools are supposed to be among the best in the world!! HELP!!

And your second point: the answer is no, no one outside the rich elite had much education.

[CheeseWhiz]

True, but there’s always weekends.  Plus, the guy knows exactly what you need to know, so it should take lots less time.

Yes, but the guy did not know what to teach. "Okay, kid. You don't know how to add fractions...where do I start?" Besides; you are aware that many people have to spend weekends doing "homework" like researching, making documents, etc...

Are you suggesting that there is a right way to teach something?  Because that’s among the top 5 stupidest things I’ve ever heard.  Guess you think George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and Steven Spielberg were pretty stupid, huh?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Actually, my dad started by studying biology (it was in China in the 80s before he moved to Canada, where he continued). He went to a business school and got a master's degree. And don't forget one thing: you can't learn something just be reading books. You need experience, and that includes internships, co-op, volunteering, etc.[/quote]

And you can get that from our new Library system.  We’ll have experts there who can show you how to build an engine, or do algebra, or…

You must be logged in to read this quote.

How will you be ready for college if you aren't dead familiar with algebra or literature? It's amazing that in the top schools in Canada (U Toronto, U Western Ontario, U Waterloo) something like 30% of students fail in their first year!! And our high schools are supposed to be among the best in the world!! HELP!!

And your second point: the answer is no, no one outside the rich elite had much education.
[/quote]

So, you can’t become familiar with algebra or literature through the Library system?  Why do you think the 30% fail?  I don’t believe it’s because they’re uneducated, it’s more likely because their parents are forcing them to go to college.  These are people who still want to play video games, and they won’t make anything of themselves until they say “I need to do something with my life” and do it.  No one can force you to come to that conclusion, or you didn’t really come up with it, did you?

Washington, Lincoln?  I’m sure there are Canadian figures, too, but I’m as familiar with them.

[CheeseWhiz]

You raise the most valid point here, Everett.  What do you think of my Library system?  Is it a suitable replacement?

[2952-0-0]

Are you suggesting that there is a right way to teach something?  Because that’s among the top 5 stupidest things I’ve ever heard.  Guess you think George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and Steven Spielberg were pretty stupid, huh?

Picking an exception to the rule doesn't disprove the rule. Unless you can prove that at least 80% of peasents in medeaval Europe could read and write, that is the rule. Besides; the world has advanced a lot since then. It's just impossible to to be a well-rounded citizen in the 21st century without some formal schooling (and home-schooling would count here).

You must be logged in to read this quote.

In a modern society every person needs a solid base in everything (I've said that four times now). If your vocabulary is extremely limited how will you, say, explain what sorts of pain you are experiencing when you go to a doctor? Besides; if you don't educate your children China and India won't be nice to you and delay high-school graduations. A building with shaky foundations, no matter how aesthetically pleasing, will be condemned.

Unless our children have the best education on earth we will fall behind.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Is it remotely possible that a kid who plays video games all the time will be accepted into one of the top schools in the world in the first place? No, because only the top one or two students at a high school can go to such places. You don't think a university will admit someone based on how much video games they play?
And another concern: what about areas without libraries? You are fortunate enough to live in a densely-populated area that could support libraries; what about rural Nebraska?

And you still haven't addressed my contern about child labour.

[Everett]

Dean, no offence, but please modify your post. I'm having a hard time figuring out which blocks of text are yours and which are CheeseWhiz's...

[Defarge]

This is honestly the most horrible proposition I have ever seen.

[Alcon]

Effectively, this:

1. Slashes school budgets by 45%.
2. Removes all teachers.
3. Relocates school students to libraries.

In other words, you are changing to much, much smaller buildings, making school entirely unsupervised (at every grade level - even first graders who may not be able to read!) and handing money to libraries that can't even fit all of the students from the local school districts.

How could that possibly work?

[Peter]

Frankly, space wise, it'd be much easier to relocate the libraries to the present school sites, otherwise the initial capital expenditure to construct the necessary buildings would be insane.

Also, I question whether hiring in industry experts would be particularly cost effective - I doubt it.