Midwest Public School Abolishment Proposition

[MasterJedi]

I just find it hilarious how you guys are trying to persuade people that this is a good idea.

[Gabu]

Securing their future:  I don't understand, are you saying we cannot learn without Schools?  What you need to know, you will learn on the way.  What you will need to learn for your future, you'll learn because you want to learn it.

Keeping kids off the street: Maybe parents should take the responsibility?  For those who have both parents at work, they can arrange to leave them with friend.  Also, I never proposed we pay to put everyone in Private schools.

Why not?  Given the materials, can't everyone learn on their own?  For those who can't, we have "field experts" come to the Libraries.  This would be someone who actually does what they're teaching.  That is solved very simply:  Build more Libraries.  If there is more demand than supply, you get more supply.

I think they can go to the Library just as easily as they can go to a Public School.  What's the difference?

Well, it's one of the things I've always wanted to cut.

Are you honestly trying to say that you feel that abolishing public schools in lieu of libraries will somehow help education?

Your average 10-year-old's idea of a good time is being off playing with friends, not conducting independent research at the library.  There's a reason why school is mandatory: at that age, children simply don't know what's in their best interest and it would be disasterous if they turned 18 and realized how woefully unprepared they were for the real world because of bad decisions they made.

Children should not be given the freedom that adults are given simply because they are not yet able to see the big picture and make smart, informed decisions.

[CheeseWhiz]

I just find it hilarious how you guys are trying to persuade people that this is a good idea.

Actually, I'm just defending my position.

[DanielX]

I put up the Wiki page for it.

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WTF? I know it would only help to convince voters that they're voting for another Birthday Cake program, but I'm not certain that's what should be done .

[MasterJedi]

I just find it hilarious how you guys are trying to persuade people that this is a good idea.

Actually, I'm just defending my position.

By defending it you're trying to convince other people you're right so they'll vote for it. (Which you're not)

[CheeseWhiz]

I know this is a controversial comment, but I think school might be a big part of what causes that problem.

Of course kids want to go off and spend time with their buddies if they’ve been learning all day…  Wouldn’t you want some time off?

I think if someone isn’t forced into it, they will want to learn.  I know I’m sounding incredibly stupid to you guys, so let me clear up one thing:  I have nothing wrong with schools, not really anyway.  I’m just saying that in my personal experience and opinion, children who are dedicated to learning what they are being thought will learn 5 times faster than someone who isn’t, and they’ll hold onto it for life.

[CheeseWhiz]

I put up the Wiki page for it.

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WTF? I know it would only help to convince voters that they're voting for another Birthday Cake program, but I'm not certain that's what should be done .

Haha...  Shhh!  What are you trying to do, ruin my plans?

I copied some stuff of the Birthday Cake Proposition because I wasn't sure how to do some things on the Wiki

[CheeseWhiz]

I just find it hilarious how you guys are trying to persuade people that this is a good idea.

Actually, I'm just defending my position.

By defending it you're trying to convince other people you're right so they'll vote for it. (Which you're not)

So I'm not supposed to defend myself?  I am simply trying to address the concerns of the opposition.  Do you have a problem with that?  Would you rather I ignore you?  You’re not making much sense here, MJ.

[Gabu]

I think if someone isn’t forced into it, they will want to learn.  I know I’m sounding incredibly stupid to you guys, so let me clear up one thing:  I have nothing wrong with schools, not really anyway.  I’m just saying that in my personal experience and opinion, children who are dedicated to learning what they are being thought will learn 5 times faster than someone who isn’t, and they’ll hold onto it for life.

Why would someone want to learn something that appears to have no relevance to their life?  Children aren't going to understand the point of learning about history, English, math, etc. at a very young age (I know I sure didn't), and by the time they do understand, they'll be very far behind those who went through public schooling.

[CheeseWhiz]

I think if someone isn’t forced into it, they will want to learn.  I know I’m sounding incredibly stupid to you guys, so let me clear up one thing:  I have nothing wrong with schools, not really anyway.  I’m just saying that in my personal experience and opinion, children who are dedicated to learning what they are being thought will learn 5 times faster than someone who isn’t, and they’ll hold onto it for life.

Why would someone want to learn something that appears to have no relevance to their life?  Children aren't going to understand the point of learning about history, English, math, etc. at a very young age (I know I sure didn't), and by the time they do understand, they'll be very far behind those who went through public schooling.

I don’t understand why it matters when they learn.  They can learn when they need to, or want to.  If they don’t understand the relevance of it, then they obviously don’t need it yet.  I think it’s a much more enjoyable experience to teach somebody something when they want to learn it.

[MasterJedi]

I just find it hilarious how you guys are trying to persuade people that this is a good idea.

Actually, I'm just defending my position.

By defending it you're trying to convince other people you're right so they'll vote for it. (Which you're not)

So I'm not supposed to defend myself?  I am simply trying to address the concerns of the opposition.  Do you have a problem with that?  Would you rather I ignore you?  You’re not making much sense here, MJ.

What I'm saying is that you're trying to defend a proposition that you want to pass (it's right for you do do that because you want it to be passed) that all but three people seem to think is a horrible idea.

I really don't know why you can't get this. I'm saying that you're trying to make something that will horribly fail seem good so people will vote for it.

[Peter]

Schools staffed by dedicated, well qualified teachers are the bedrock of an educated, free society. I recognise that getting these teachers can sometimes be a problem, but my word, this is incredibly controversial.

I've studied god knows how much stuff in my career as a student and I will vouch happily for the fact that a teacher explaining something to you is nine times out of ten far more effective at increasing one's understanding it than blandly reading it off a page.

Understanding is also greatly aided by demonstration - science experiments would become a thing of the past, and therefore the science education of students would be drastically damaged, perhaps wiping out an entire generation of science students.

And it won't come as a surprise to anybody that kids from poorer backgrounds simply won't be educated - parents won't bother to motivate their kids to learn, and most kids will sink into god knows what sort of lifestyle.

Even where kids do actually learn, how is their learning to be measured and evaluated. With no actual schools, how will somebody take exams to gain qualifications? Doing it on the internet is obviously wide open to fraud. You will end up with a generation that have no qualifications. Without the recognition of proper qualifications, how are employers meant to scrutinise candidates for positions? They can hardly set exams themselves as the time wasted by the company would be highly unprofitable to them.

And those are only a few of the many reasons that this will destroy education in the Midwest.

[CheeseWhiz]

What I'm saying is that you're trying to defend a proposition that you want to pass (it's right for you do do that because you want it to be passed) that all but three people seem to think is a horrible idea.

I really don't know why you can't get this. I'm saying that you're trying to make something that will horribly fail seem good so people will vote for it.

I know I’m in the minority, but is that any reason to give up?

Listen, I’d really love to figure out why this is such a bad idea, but I think everything you’ve come up with so far will either stay the same or improve because of this.  It’s you who are wasting your time trying to convince me it’s a bad idea, if anything.  That said, you don’t have to stop, I really like hearing your concerns, (as long as your not flaming,) and trying to cover them.

[Gabu]

I don’t understand why it matters when they learn.  They can learn when they need to, or want to.  If they don’t understand the relevance of it, then they obviously don’t need it yet.  I think it’s a much more enjoyable experience to teach somebody something when they want to learn it.

It took me 14 years to learn all of the math that I know today and there is still more that I could learn if I so chose.  Imagine what would happen if I decided I wanted to go into physics right now but had never even learned the basics of arithmetic.  You can't just say "okay, now I will learn this" and then have it happen.  Many, many things take years to cover, and if a person hasn't even learned the basics for something that he or she wants to master after coming to an awareness about the big picture in life, it can hardly be imagined that that person could ever compete with one who started at an early age.

Here's a question: what is the problem with public schools as they are today?

[CheeseWhiz]

Understanding is also greatly aided by demonstration - science experiments would become a thing of the past, and therefore the science education of students would be drastically damaged, perhaps wiping out an entire generation of science students.

This can, (and will,) all be moved to the Libraries.

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How is it any harder to go to School and than to go to the Library?

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You aren’t getting rid of Collages, we aren't even entirely getting rid of schools, for crying out loud!

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I severely doubt it...  But you are entitled to your opinion, of course.

[MasterJedi]

I'm in one of the top ten public schools in the state (more in the middle but I could be wrong). More people graduate out of my school than most everywhere else in the state. Now if we didn't have to go to school and could go to the library to learn things only about 1-3% of the people would do that. They'd stay home and have fun and then education would totally be destroyed as would any businesses throughout the country. So in one of the best public schools in the state hardly anybody would learn independently. Does that tell you something? Yes and I urge the people to vote against this when it comes up for a vote.

[Gabu]

How is it any harder to go to School and than to go to the Library?

Schools are a structured environment in which students are taught everything that they need to know about a subject and in which a student can reasonably expect to obtain a well-rounded base of knowledge that can then be specialized once the person gets to college.

A library, on the other hand, is just a disorganized array of information, and the chance of a student getting a fully adequate, well-rounded base of knowledge through independent study are much more slim.

[CheeseWhiz]

I don’t understand why it matters when they learn.  They can learn when they need to, or want to.  If they don’t understand the relevance of it, then they obviously don’t need it yet.  I think it’s a much more enjoyable experience to teach somebody something when they want to learn it.

It took me 14 years to learn all of the math that I know today and there is still more that I could learn if I so chose.  Imagine what would happen if I decided I wanted to go into physics right now but had never even learned the basics of arithmetic.  You can't just say "okay, now I will learn this" and then have it happen.  Many, many things take years to cover, and if a person hasn't even learned the basics for something that he or she wants to master after coming to an awareness about the big picture in life, it can hardly be imagined that that person could ever compete with one who started at an early age.

Here's a question: what is the problem with public schools as they are today?

Hmmm…  It took me about a week to learn the basic of math, and about a couple of years to learn typing.  I know I may not be the best at punctuations here, but that’s because it’s a Forum and I don’t really care that much.

That said, how much math do you know?  I’m just curious.

You can’t just say “okay, now I want to go into this field” and have it happen, either.  Everything I love today sparks from interests that I had 5 years ago.  If I just decided I want to do _______ I don’t think I’d really love working everyday.  I have to love what I’m doing, or I don’t really see a purpose in doing it.

[Peter]

Understanding is also greatly aided by demonstration - science experiments would become a thing of the past, and therefore the science education of students would be drastically damaged, perhaps wiping out an entire generation of science students.

This can, (and will,) all be moved to the Libraries.

The suggestion that science experiments which should be conducted in purpose designed laboratories could be conducted in libraries is ridiculous.

Even if you were willing to attach these labs to libraries it would cost millions upon billions of dollars as a down investment.

[CheeseWhiz]

I'm in one of the top ten public schools in the state (more in the middle but I could be wrong). More people graduate out of my school than most everywhere else in the state. Now if we didn't have to go to school and could go to the library to learn things only about 1-3% of the people would do that. They'd stay home and have fun and then education would totally be destroyed as would any businesses throughout the country. So in one of the best public schools in the state hardly anybody would learn independently. Does that tell you something? Yes and I urge the people to vote against this when it comes up for a vote.

How long do you really think they’d sit around and play video games before they’d want to do something?  I’m almost sure it wouldn’t last a month, if that long, before they wanted to go to the Library and study.

Think about it:  If they’re too lazy to learn anything when they’re 12, then I believe they’ll probably be too lazy to work when they’re 32.

[CheeseWhiz]

How is it any harder to go to School and than to go to the Library?

Schools are a structured environment in which students are taught everything that they need to know about a subject and in which a student can reasonably expect to obtain a well-rounded base of knowledge that can then be specialized once the person gets to college.

A library, on the other hand, is just a disorganized array of information, and the chance of a student getting a fully adequate, well-rounded base of knowledge through independent study are much more slim.

Well, anything they need in that “well-rounded base of knowledge” they will encounter in real life.  School is supposed to set you up for real life, while college secures your future.  We aren’t doing anything to colleges, and if school sets you up for RL, then you will sooner or later encounter everything you really need to know for RL before the age of 12.

[MasterJedi]

If you really, truly think this is true why don't you just drop out of school and do what you propose?

[ilikeverin]

...a.k.a. the ILV Will Never Speak to Me Again Proposition

(except not)

I believe everyone has raised lots of good points, but here's another one just for fun: what about non-visual learners?  Books aren't everyone's pieces of cake.  I personally learn best through demonstration and imitation... things that couldn't be accomplished through plain 'ol book learnin'.

[Gabu]

That said, how much math do you know?  I’m just curious.

Multivariable calculus, a fair bit of linear algebra, a lot of set theory... it's true that the basics of arithmetic are not very hard, but I really can't see someone getting up to the higher stuff in a matter of weeks.  At any rate, you're only considering your own experience, and it sounds like you're an abnormally fast learner, statistically speaking.  Many people have a much more difficult time grasping what we may consider basic knowledge.

Think about it:  If they’re too lazy to learn anything when they’re 12, then I believe they’ll probably be too lazy to work when they’re 32.

If it weren't for the fact that school was mandatory, I would probably have never learned a thing by age 12.  All I wanted to do at that age was play video games and do stuff with friends.  Learning things was the last thing on my mind.

You can’t just say “okay, now I want to go into this field” and have it happen, either.  Everything I love today sparks from interests that I had 5 years ago.  If I just decided I want to do _______ I don’t think I’d really love working everyday.  I have to love what I’m doing, or I don’t really see a purpose in doing it.

School up to grade 12 gives you a solid base of knowledge and ability in pretty well any field.  Being able to transition into college-level mathematics is a lot easier if you know algebra than if you don't even know arithmetic.  Or, being able to learn the intricacies of WWII in a detailed course on it is a lot easier if you know the general overview of what went on.  It would take a very long time to go into many fields if you didn't have that base that school provides.  What you're suggesting is for students to figure out at a very young age exactly what they want to do and then to put all of their eggs in that one basket.  This seems very dangerous, at best, even ignoring the issues regarding whether or not a young child could even do that.

[Gabu]

Well, anything they need in that “well-rounded base of knowledge” they will encounter in real life.  School is supposed to set you up for real life, while college secures your future.  We aren’t doing anything to colleges, and if school sets you up for RL, then you will sooner or later encounter everything you really need to know for RL before the age of 12.

Schools give you what you need to know to gain entry into colleges.  If you don't learn what you are supposed to learn in high school, you won't have a hope of survival in college.

I've heard so many times that you don't need what you learn after grade 8 in most jobs, but I've found it to be quite surprising how many times I've found that knowledge to be most helpful.