Midwest Public School Abolishment Proposition

[CheeseWhiz]

My signature has nothing to do with this bill, it has to do with Dean saying that I live in a la-la land where people can be successes without getting a formal education and that nobody but the high-class were educated before Public Schools, which isn’t true, either. Others have said similar things in the past.  I’m just trying to show them that some pretty smart people didn’t have to go to school.  I have no problem if you want to, I’m just saying no one has to.

I hope this bill doesn’t affect your personal like of me, but I have no control over how far you take this and if it affects your opinion of me.

[Everett]

My mother is a longtime schoolteacher and educator, a proponent of homeschooling, and an ardent supporter of the Montessori movement, but I highly doubt that even she would see the viability of this proposal. She has taught at numerous public and private schools, enjoyed working with preschoolers and kindergarteners (she specialised in early childhood education, which was her focus when she earned her Master's Degree in Education), and has a lot of experience with both children and adults. In general, she has found that young children need to explore freely, but they almost always require supervision and some kind of direction. They don't simply walk to the library and start doing something completely independently. Now, if an adult forces them to do something at 10AM, something else at 11AM, and then naptime at noon, they probably won't enjoy learning so much. If an adult gives them options, say, fingerpainting, planting tomatoes in the garden, playing with blocks/geometric shapes, or reading various books, then the children will usually find something that they enjoy. However, most children don't just figure something out on their own. For example, although I have always liked math to some extent, I would not have thought to play with numbers when I was six years old - my mother had to give me options and activities (workbooks, flashcards, M&Ms... et cetera). When I was nine, I spontaneously decided, completely of my own volition, that I wanted to study Trigonometry, and study Trigonometry I did. It would not have happened when I was younger, however, because it simply did not. I almost always responded well to activity suggestions, but I rarely thought of my own activities. Therefore, without structure of some kind, most children will not learn. The other thing is, I am clearly an exception, not the norm, and even I did not always learn by independently accessing something and then gaining knowledge. It obviously happened, but later on in life, by the time I was eight or nine. The early years are formative years, when children learn most of the stuff that they will need in life, and I don't really believe in turning children loose and sending them to the library. Maybe later, but not when they are very young.

[Gabu]

So, let me get this straight...

Some of the most exceptional people in history, compared to your average person, performed fine without public schooling.

Therefore, everyone will perform fine without public schooling.

I'm sorry, but not even using the most convoluted logic does this follow.  It's because those people were exceptional that they were fine without public schooling.  You're seriously confusing cause and effect here.  Why do you seem to be completely ignoring the average person, instead choosing to focus on the people who would excel no matter what their surroundings?

Would it not be best for education that people have as much choice as possible?

[ilikeverin]

For example, although I have always liked math to some extent, I would not have thought to play with numbers when I was six years old - my mother had to give me options and activities (workbooks, flashcards, M&Ms... et cetera).

Haha, that's funny, I remember requesting math stuff when I was 5

I did little multiplication problems.

[CheeseWhiz]

So, let me get this straight...

Some of the most exceptional people in history, compared to your average person, performed fine without public schooling.

Therefore, everyone will perform fine without public schooling.

I'm sorry, but not even using the most convoluted logic does this follow.  It's because those people were exceptional that they were fine without public schooling.  You're seriously confusing cause and effect here.  Why do you seem to be completely ignoring the average person, instead choosing to focus on the people who would excel no matter what their surroundings?

Would it not be best for education that people have as much choice as possible?

Again, my sig has nothing to do with this bill.  Dean said that no one could become successful unless they had formal education, that’s why it’s in my sig.

[CheeseWhiz]

Also, why does everyone feel the need to be so harsh?  Everett and ilikeverin aren’t being this way, and I feel much more inclined to answer their questions then someone who calls me stupid, says I’m living in a la-la land, telling me I’m going to make Atlasia a laughing-stock ect.

[ilikeverin]

Also, why does everyone feel the need to be so harsh?  Everett and ilikeverin aren’t being this way, and I feel much more inclined to answer their questions then someone who calls me stupid, says I’m living in a la-la land, telling me I’m going to make Atlasia a laughing-stock ect.

Because they're not Midwesterners silly

[CheeseWhiz]

Also, why does everyone feel the need to be so harsh?  Everett and ilikeverin aren’t being this way, and I feel much more inclined to answer their questions then someone who calls me stupid, says I’m living in a la-la land, telling me I’m going to make Atlasia a laughing-stock ect.

Because they're not Midwesterners silly

Midwesterners are nice!

[CheeseWhiz]

I knew when I first posted this that everyone would think I was nuts, but I’ve always strongly believed that it isn’t the Governments job to have a schooling system.

Alcon, to answer your question, my point is anybody, anywhere can be self taught, it isn’t a hard thing to do.  You don’t need school, you really don’t.

If anyone’s interested, I’ve got several books you can read about unschooling, just PM me and I’ll send you the names.  But I figure at this point I’ll probably just discredit any books people may come by on there own.

If anyone thinks I should, I could change it to increase the amount of money transferred from the Schools to the Libraries, or lengthen the amount of time before the funding is cut.

I did, however, wish people could have at least tried to consider my ideas, before shouting that I was going to single handedly destroy the economy, raise crime and revert us back to prehistoric times.

Everett, if you want to propose your idea, that’s fine with me, but I just don’t know about it myself.

In closing I would like to say that in the end, it’s the Midwesterners choice; I just wanted to put the idea out there.  You’re welcome to make ads asking Midwesterners not to vote for such an atrocious thing, but don’t keep attacking it on my thread, I’d rather leave room for those who actually want to know something, or may have suggestions to improve my Proposition.

[Everett]

Where is Bono? Would Bono have any thoughts on this?

[CheeseWhiz]

Where is Bono? Would Bono have any thoughts on this?

I dunno.  I like Bono!

[Everett]

Of everyone who has made negative comments, who exactly lives in the Midwest and would be affected?

[ilikeverin]

Where is Bono? Would Bono have any thoughts on this?

Bono would say that it was evil just like every single government that has ever existed ever, except for border patrols.  Then he'd mope about interstates and rant about the superiority of trains to plains and cars, before launching into a scathing rebuke of the government-owned judicial system before proposing turning over the judicial system to corporations

[Јas]

First you say no one will bother to go to the Library for independent study, then you say that the Libraries will be overcrowded, the back to the Lazy argument, no they’ll be overcrowded again, you guys are sending mixed messages.  The former Public Schools will be converted into Libraries, which should accommodate much more students then the current Public Schools are accommodating.

No, my argument has remained the same. Even if this was your theory was meticulously planned and provided for, it would take many, many, many years to put in place properly. As soon as education funding disappears here, chaos will consume the Midwest.

Your theory ignores the lack of economies of scale. Efficiency costs would cripple the system.

Also, how would turning public schools into libraries increase capacity?

Well, that’s good then, but I was pointing out that the opposition in general seemed to be giving mixed messages.

I fail to see how it would be different then Public Schools, which never have enough funding.  This would help, since both Public Schools and Libraries don’t have enough funding, combining about half of the Public School money with the whole Library money should be about right, I’d think.

You believe that neither have enough funding, but if we combine them and cut their overall budget substantially, the new system will be an improvement?

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Are you suggesting parents should be held criminally liable for the crimes of their children?
Your other proposition proposes to allow 5-year olds decide on rational career choices, yet here you say that parents are fully responsible for their childrens actions. There appears to be a contradiction here.[/quote][/quote]

Why do we have to either be on one extreme or the other?  Parents should take the responsibility of their kids, but not force them to do anything against their will, just be their guide in life.  The Government can do nothing to enforce this, and it shouldn’t, I just hope that parents may consider doing this. [/quote]

So, little Jimmy (9) wants to be a pro football player. He doesn't care about reading or writing or math because it's no fun. He practices really really hard, always playing ball. His parents want him to learn to read and write and such, but under this new law they can't send the child to be schooled. Jimmy doesn't make it as a pro-football player and has no academic skills or qualifications, but thankfully he had the right as a youngster to decide completely on his education (or lack thereof).

Were Jimmy's best interests served by giving him unfettered control over his education?

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And how will this be paid for? You proposed slashing the budget that was paying the teachers. If they all became librarians, we wouldn't save very much money at all from this plan.[/quote]

Okay then, how much money is in the budget for Public school upkeep?  We can pretty much cut that completely.  There’s also two years for them to find other jobs, so I doubt all will become Librarians, but we will be able to give almost all of them back their jobs. [/quote]
If we re-employ most of the teachers, how does that lead to substantive cost savings?
And during the 2 years, if many teachers leave, how do you imagine that will impact on their students?

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You expect to recruit voluntarily and without pay? How much time do you suppose these people would be able to devote to this? How will they cater for the very wide range of students before them, who will vary widely in terms of age and capabilities?[/quote]

They wouldn’t be a crucial part of the entire project, they’d just be there when we could get them, probably most of the time on weekends.
[/quote]
So Monday to Friday, the kids are on their own, unsupervised and without direction in the library. And for a couple of hours on the weekends, field experts will voluntarily give up their time to perform demonstrations in libraries to an audience of wide divergence in terms of both capabilities and their level of learning in the subject, correct?

[CheeseWhiz]

If you have geniune questions or suggestions, I'll be happy to answer them, but it seems to me people are taking this opportunity to attack Youth Rights and unschooling.

P.S. Your Jimmy argument is very different from how it really works, you think he won't come across a book he'd like to read?  Or a go on some forum where he needs to learn how to write?  Or how about needing to calculate how to divide 32 muffins between 4 people?  You come across these things every day of your life, that's why you need to know them.

[Bono]

Where is Bono? Would Bono have any thoughts on this?

I dunno.  I like Bono!

Not my region, not my business.

[CheeseWhiz]

Where is Bono? Would Bono have any thoughts on this?

I dunno.  I like Bono!

Not my region, not my business.

You see, I knew I liked you!

[ilikeverin]

P.S. Your Jimmy argument is very different from how it really works, you think he won't come across a book he'd like to read?  Or a go on some forum where he needs to learn how to write?  Or how about needing to calculate how to divide 32 muffins between 4 people?

It's possible.  There are quite a few people who have never read a book outside school.

[CheeseWhiz]

There is an absolutely great article that I think everyone, especially those who are opposed, should read.

The Weak Case for Public Schooling by David Friedman.

Please, if you oppose this proposition, or think vouchers would be much better, then you’ve gotta read this article.

[CheeseWhiz]

P.S. Your Jimmy argument is very different from how it really works, you think he won't come across a book he'd like to read?  Or a go on some forum where he needs to learn how to write?  Or how about needing to calculate how to divide 32 muffins between 4 people?

It's possible.  There are quite a few people who have never read a book outside school.

That’s because they’re already reading in School, why should they read on their free time?

I know a lot of people see going to school as fun, (you're one of them,) but there are lots of others who see it as work, and work that they don’t like much at that.  Unschooling allows these people to take it at their pace, which is probably a little behind the Government School system.  This makes learning much more enjoyable for at least this group of people.