France General Discussion IV: Yellow Fever

[Antonio the Sixth]

Can you please stop double-posting every news about Notre Dame? I don't care if you post it in the Notre Dame thread or the general France thread (and I do appreciate you posting updates on this, since I'm invested in the issue myself and agree with you on it), but it's annoying to have to check two different thread and find the exact same post. Just pick one thread and stick with it.

[Antonio the Sixth]

lmao, three successive generations of corruption in the French right on display at once

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well things are heating up with French students, Macron will go down in history as the one responsible for the death of the current republic at this rate

As much as I'd love to see it happen, the Fifth Republic has been through much worse.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I know a lot of left-wingers want to see a Sixth Republic, but what would be different between that and the current Fifth Republic? I never really understood it.

EVERYTHING

The current system is basically the worst of both worlds, with the shallow personality-centric politics of a presidential regime combined with the servile, rubber-stamp parliament that you normally see in Westminster-type systems (although not in Westminster right now ). A movement in either direction would be preferable, but the most important thing is to break down all the shackles that the 1958 constitution put on parliamentary autonomy from the government, and put cabinet selection truly in parliament's hands. It would be even better to get rid of direct election of the president altogether, but sadly I doubt it would be possible to get people on board with that.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I mean,
Parlementarism was so great, it gave us 2 wonderful and stable republics that were so stable.
So let's move to a parlementarian system like the UK!

Uh, the Third Republic was the most successful regime in French history, and only fell when parliament decided to abdicate its responsibilities and empower a single Strong Man figure (sounds familiar?).

If you want to blame the Great Depression, WW2 and the Algeria War on parliamentarism, more power to you, I guess, but that's a ridiculous claim.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The most successful regime in French history? Based on what? Philippe Auguste, Louis XI and Louis XIII were far more successful than the IIIrd republic given how much they improved french's standing.

1. A king is not a regime.
2. "France's standing" can mean anything you want, but if you take it to include things like peace, economic prosperity, and democracy, your argument obviously falls apart.

How can you say that parliamentarism is stable when president du conseils almost never lasted more than 2 years?

So what? I'm not convinced that there's any value to the head of the executive staying in power for a long time. Hell, I f**king wish FBM would be gone after 2 years in office. A democracy doesn't need Strong Men who rule it with an iron fist for a decade, it needs dedicate public servants who are willing to do their job when called upon and willing to leave when they're no longer needed.

Besides, it's worth noting that while governments changed often, policy was generally a lot more stable during the Third Republic, because parliamentary majorities more or less always shared a broad consensus, and this consensus only shifted gradually or as a result of specific events. Meanwhile, in our current hyper-Presidentialism, any time a new government comes in, they undo everything the previous did.

[Antonio the Sixth]

So what? I'm not convinced that there's any value to the head of the executive staying in power for a long time. Hell, I f**king wish FBM would be gone after 2 years in office. A democracy doesn't need Strong Men who rule it with an iron fist for a decade, it needs dedicate public servants who are willing to do their job when called upon and willing to leave when they're no longer needed.

Trashy, classless language aside? You wouldn’t wish your own leader only got two years in the office. A mandate is a mandate.

...do you know how parliamentary systems work??

[Antonio the Sixth]

...do you know how parliamentary systems work??

I was specifically referring to the implication that leaders lasting two years could remotely be a good thing.

Because it can and often is.

[Antonio the Sixth]

NOT HOW PARLIAMENTARY SYSTEMS WORK. There is no define "terms"

Again?

I was specifically addressing. Two. Year. Terms.

There are no two year terms, there would be an election every four years and there may be full four year terms but if FBM doesn't survive till then there maybe be two year term or one year term.

Yup. The """term""" of a chief executive is zero years. They serve at the pleasure of parliament, who can fire whenever they so desire (well, some countries have limits on how often you can introduce a no-confidence motion, but even then a parliament has informal means to oust a PM aside from a NCM).

That's the thing Kingpoleon just refuses to understand. I don't believe that the executive should be an independent branch of government. The executive, properly understood, is an employee of parliament that parliament hires and fires at will, for the sake of streamlining policy and enforcing the laws it makes. That's in the name, "executive". Executors only get to keep their job if the people whose will they are executing trust them to execute it, and not a second longer.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yup. The """term""" of a chief executive is zero years. They serve at the pleasure of parliament, who can fire whenever they so desire (well, some countries have limits on how often you can introduce a no-confidence motion, but even then a parliament has informal means to oust a PM aside from a NCM).

That's the thing Kingpoleon just refuses to understand. I don't believe that the executive should be an independent branch of government. The executive, properly understood, is an employee of parliament that parliament hires and fires at will, for the sake of streamlining policy and enforcing the laws it makes. That's in the name, "executive". Executors only get to keep their job if the people whose will they are executing trust them to execute it, and not a second longer.

I completely understand that. It’s just that there is no guarantee that he would only last two years, and your implied argument - to me - there was that magically people you don’t like would lose power sooner in a parliamentary system. Macron is capable enough to whip the left and right like horses - there’s little reason to believe any such thing would magically happen.

I understand what you mean; I know how parliamentary systems work; I’m not an idiot, contrary to the claims and personal attacks from you and Intell. Please be more respectful to me in the future, Tony - I’m not the bad guy for questioning or even disagreeing with you, which you seem to say when you attack me for doing so.

Windjammer was making the argument that the shorter lifespan of governments under parliamentary systems (regardless of whether that is in fact true or not, which wasn't the point of the argument) is a bad thing. I countered that there's nothing inherently bad about it, and that actually, I can think of at least one specific case (the current government of France) where that would be a good thing.

The only way for you to construct my argument is such a ludicrously bizarre way is either by ignoring its context or by being deliberately disingenuous about it. Whichever it is, you are in no position to complain about the tenor of my answer.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yup. The """term""" of a chief executive is zero years. They serve at the pleasure of parliament, who can fire whenever they so desire (well, some countries have limits on how often you can introduce a no-confidence motion, but even then a parliament has informal means to oust a PM aside from a NCM).

That's the thing Kingpoleon just refuses to understand. I don't believe that the executive should be an independent branch of government. The executive, properly understood, is an employee of parliament that parliament hires and fires at will, for the sake of streamlining policy and enforcing the laws it makes. That's in the name, "executive". Executors only get to keep their job if the people whose will they are executing trust them to execute it, and not a second longer.

I completely understand that. It’s just that there is no guarantee that he would only last two years, and your implied argument - to me - there was that magically people you don’t like would lose power sooner in a parliamentary system. Macron is capable enough to whip the left and right like horses - there’s little reason to believe any such thing would magically happen.

I understand what you mean; I know how parliamentary systems work; I’m not an idiot, contrary to the claims and personal attacks from you and Intell. Please be more respectful to me in the future, Tony - I’m not the bad guy for questioning or even disagreeing with you, which you seem to say when you attack me for doing so.

Windjammer was making the argument that the shorter lifespan of governments under parliamentary systems (regardless of whether that is in fact true or not, which wasn't the point of the argument) is a bad thing. I countered that there's nothing inherently bad about it, and that actually, I can think of at least one specific case (the current government of France) where that would be a good thing.

The only way for you to construct my argument is such a ludicrously bizarre way is either by ignoring its context or by being deliberately disingenuous about it. Whichever it is, you are in no position to complain about the tenor of my answer.

When the govt is fired every two years, this means instability and you need stability and time if you want to achieve great things.

This is not an argument. It's a succession of half-baked clichés, some of which I've already refuted in earlier posts that you never addressed. If this is the tenor you want to give this conversation, there's no point in continuing it (especially since it's veering off-topic anyway).

[Antonio the Sixth]

So you're saying the boss would somehow be better off not having the power to fire bad employees who refuse to follow instructions or otherwise fail at their task? Try to go tell that to a boss and see if they agree.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I can understand being sceptical of what Macaroon's proposal is likely to be and getting the ball rolling on protesting, but striking even before a proposal is released seems stupid as it's more likely to get people mad at you rather than with you.

Undeniably, many French people are perhaps... overly in love with the idea of protests/activism being a vital function of democracy.

Guilty as charged.

There's a lot I don't like about modern France, but the fact that we're one of the last countries where workers are willing to rise up en masse to resist the continued destruction of their livelihoods for the benefits of the billionaires class is something I'm very proud of.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Ideological strikes, designed to damage your political opponents, until your side seizes power. Surely you can understand why I’m not completely comfortable with that, right?

...what in the world is that even supposed to mean

Every strike is "ideological" in the sense that it's about achieving or preventing a given policy outcome that maps onto the ideological spectrum. The fact that you can't seem to understand that I care about substantive outcomes for real human beings, not about benefiting "my side" politically (wtf is even "my side"? I dislike every major French party at this point) suggests to me that your brain has been poisoned by excessive exposure to toxic US politics.

[Antonio the Sixth]

https://www.letemps.ch/culture/albert-uderzo-dessinateur-dasterix-decede

RIP

[Antonio the Sixth]

Oh God, FBM winning really opened the floodgates for every third-rate celebrity to start thinking they could be the next "outsider" to win the Presidency. What a f**king time to be alive.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The Fillions found guilty of embezzling public funds.
François Fillion is sentenced to 5 years in jail (three years suspended) and €375,000 fine, his wife Penelope is sentenced to three suspended years and a €375,000 fine.
Fillion's assistant, Marc Joulaud, is sentenced to three suspended years and a €20,000 fine.
The three must also reimburse more than 1 million euros to the National Assembly.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/29/francois-fillon-found-guilty-of-embezzling-public-funds

They're appealing, too.

As always. It will take years, but hopefully we'll #LockThemUp eventually. It took a while for the Balkanys too.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Wow. I had literally never heard of the guy. This is the first time in my life I'm genuinely floored by a PM appointment. What a bizarre choice.

I guess there are a few possible ways to rationalize the choice. Appointing a small-town mayor can be FBM's olive branch to "peripheral France" where the Yellow Vest movement began and an effort to mend fences with local officeholders who generally hate his guts. Or appointing someone with a technocratic profile can be a way to show the country that the President is hard at work to tackle the crisis in a way that transcends partisan politics (but then again French people usually hate technocrats more than they hate partisan politicians). Or, as has been suggested, FBM wants to hoard all the media attention and he hated that Philippe was starting to build his own public figure. In which case, that seems like a uniquely boneheaded way to approach political strategy (yes, Mitterrand fired Rocard and Pompidou fired Chaban for the same reason, but they both had an established party to pick potential replacements from).

Anyway, I'm curious to see how this turns out. There's the potential for quite a bit of comedy here.

[Antonio the Sixth]

You know, I feel the real victim here is still the woman who had a whole article fantasizing about her being sold into slavery in a major national magazine. Some debate about whether or not to punish the author just detracts from the fact that we’re right to be horrified by how much of a dark place the French mainstream media has gone to these days

See the latest installment where there has been collective outrage on the part of the usual pseudo républicain bien-pensants over the idea that someone could appear in parliament while veiled. Or worse, cook on instagram while veiled.

Some convoluted free speech thing just lets valeurs actuelles pretend that they’re the victims. When they’re not, they’re the aggressors

This.

To answer NYE's question though, judicially speaking, shutting it down seems beyond the pale, but charges of libel and incitement to racial hatred against the people involved in this article might be warranted. That would carry a fine.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The trial for the Charlie Hebdo and connected attack is taking place now, btw. Lots of painful memories here. RIP.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Something I stumbled across and that I'm sure some of you know: AJRElectionMaps, a DeviantArt account that makes some really, really good, er, election maps from all over the world, together with great writeups that explain what the hell actually happened.

Anyway, recently they made some maps for French elections right after WW2 that include results from African colonies, something I haven't seen before. 

French legislative election, November 1946

French legislative election, 1951

French legislative election, 1956

Ohhhhhh this is beautiful.

Edit: WOW this account is a goldmine. Whoever this person is, we need to invite them to join Atlas if they aren't here already.

[Antonio the Sixth]

French polls are honestly some of the most accurate in the world. The fact that French pollsters get so much sh*t for missing Le Pen beating Jospin in 2002 (even though they basically showed the two within the margin of error and the trend was clearly in Le Pen's favor) has created a cottage industry of poll-haters that's even more fanatical than in the US post-2016, but this is an utterly irrational attitude, and dismissing evidence because it doesn't "feel right" is the best way of getting burned (and I would know - I kept insisting that FBM's support would implode in 2017 and it never did).

A better argument is that approvals and voting intentions are very different things.

[Antonio the Sixth]

#EnfermezLe

[Antonio the Sixth]

Le Pen usually starts polling high and loses ground over the course of the campaign. Hopefully the pattern repeats and someone else can squeak by.

For the left though, it's pretty clearly unify-or-die. Good luck convincing Melenchon to support anyone who isn't him...

[Antonio the Sixth]

For the first time in recorded history, something news worthy happens in Savoie.



Yes, I am that juvenile. Problem?

Where is that?