France General Discussion IV: Yellow Fever

[Zinneke]

It really says something that the most "advanced" societies have handled this pandemic the worst.

The most complacent.

[CumbrianLefty]

Also, to be fair, often the most complex.

[parochial boy]

So anyway, now that the Muslim world is boycotting France; Blanquer is in the Journal du Dimanche ad verbatim repeating Lepéniste points about "Islamogauchisme"; and the poisonous shït sack has taken a break from sexually assaulting women* to deam the existence of halal (an Kosher) aisles in supermarkets as being proof of "separatism" and a grave threat to the republic.

It's all going well, huh? Even Marine Le Pen isn't actually sure whether she is currently the president or not.

*présumé innocent jusqu'à preuve du contraire

[Alcibiades]

So anyway, now that the Muslim world is boycotting France; Blanquer is in the Journal du Dimanche ad verbatim repeating Lepéniste points about "Islamogauchisme"; and the poisonous shït sack has taken a break from sexually assaulting women* to deam the existence of halal (an Kosher) aisles in supermarkets as being proof of "separatism" and a grave threat to the republic.

It's all going well, huh? Even Marine Le Pen isn't actually sure whether she is currently the president or not.

*présumé innocent jusqu'à preuve du contraire

As much as it is a cliché, I think that this is a time for “when they go low, we go high”. I don’t know exactly what these sections of the Muslim world aim to achieve with their anti-free speech campaigns, which are quite frankly absurd in the levels of hypocrisy they approach, but the West should not respond by stigmatising Muslims at large in their own countries - perhaps this is the response the fundamentalists desire, as it increases radicalisation. Easier said than done, I suppose.

[parochial boy]

As much as it is a cliché, I think that this is a time for “when they go low, we go high”. I don’t know exactly what these sections of the Muslim world aim to achieve with their anti-free speech campaigns, which are quite frankly absurd in the levels of hypocrisy they approach, but the West should not respond by stigmatising Muslims at large in their own countries - perhaps this is the response the fundamentalists desire, as it increases radicalisation. Easier said than done, I suppose.

The thing is, they make themselves such easy targets right now because all their high words about laïcité and freedom and all the rest seem to be contradicted by the way they behave at home.

So actual government ministers actively participating in a media discourse aimed at targetting, not islamism the ideology, but any visible sign of being a Muslim; combined with the same enthusiastic promotion of a narrative that essentially says that "anyone who complains about stigmatising Muslims is literally supporting Islamic terrorism"; combined with a conception of laïcité that only seems to be worried about one particular religion (catholic private schools? no problem, carry on). And you have something that is quite frightening in terms of how acceptable it is to express, well, left wing opinions. Let alone what it would feel like for someone who actually is a Muslim.

I mean, a boycott aginst  "how dare those dastardly French show caricatures of the prophet". Yes, it's and risible, and pathetic. But for the French government to stand up as the great defenders of liberty, and then to actually go about stigmatising, well, people's religions or their political beliefs in the name of this liberty... As much as Erdogan clearly has no real interest in free speech, and is more worried about scoring political points against a man he spent the summer in a pitched battle about the Meditteranean with; it makes his point for him.

And, it isn't just that. Like I said, it's frightening in it's own right. It's frightening to see where attitudes in France about having the wrong political beliefs or the wrong religion have gone. And when you have a government minister, serving in a liberal adminstration expressing his disgust that Muslims are able to go to a supermarket and buy halal food. Well it's frightening to see the whole country adopt this sort far right rhetoric as part of its own national story, and into its political mainstream.

[GALeftist]

I've honestly never understood how there can be all this handwringing about secularism when lunatics like Le Pen run around proudly proclaiming their Christianity, and even the Macron government doesn't hold Christians to a remotely similar standard as they hold Muslims. I would have more sympathy for this "laïcité" case if the government was *also* discussing whether people should be allowed to wear crosses around their necks in public (still wouldn't agree with it, but at least it would be morally consistent), but as it is it seems almost farcical.

For the record, I think you should be allowed to draw Muhammad, although I don't think you should as it's a dick move. This is more just confusion at the blatant double standard which seems to be held in these so called "secular" countries, not only in France but also Quebec and the like.

[kelestian]

I've honestly never understood how there can be all this handwringing about secularism when lunatics like Le Pen run around proudly proclaiming their Christianity, and even the Macron government doesn't hold Christians to a remotely similar standard as they hold Muslims. I would have more sympathy for this "laïcité" case if the government was *also* discussing whether people should be allowed to wear crosses around their necks in public (still wouldn't agree with it, but at least it would be morally consistent), but as it is it seems almost farcical.

For the record, I think you should be allowed to draw Muhammad, although I don't think you should as it's a dick move. This is more just confusion at the blatant double standard which seems to be held in these so called "secular" countries, not only in France but also Quebec and the like.

Do Christians also behead people from time to time in the name of God? I think no. Christianity isn't a problem here, radical islam is. Though i don't think Macron's measures would help.

[kelestian]

And talking about hypocrisy: maybe French Society is somewhat islamophobic, but there is literally ongoing  genocide of muslim population in China, far worse than what happened in Bosnia and Palestine. And barely any muslim country objected. It's the west democracies like France who tries to restrain chinese perpetration on Uighurs.

[GALeftist]

Do Christians also behead people from time to time in the name of God? I think no. Christianity isn't a problem here, radical islam is. Though i don't think Macron's measures would help.

I'm not well versed in the influence of Christianity in Russia – it's probably been muted for a while because of the USSR's state atheism – but here in the Southern United States, yes, people are absolutely killed for religious reasons by Christians from time to time. I mean, the 16th street bombing in Birmingham is well within living memory, and the Klan is absolutely an example of a Christian terrorist organization. You could also argue that the attack in Pittsburgh more recently or even in El Paso were both examples of terrorism influenced by the reaction of certain Christian sects to modern society. I won't make a false equivalency and say that religious violence is nearly as bad in the United States as it is in other parts of the world, but in my view that mostly comes down to differing levels of development.

And talking about hypocrisy: maybe French Society is somewhat islamophobic, but there is literally ongoing  genocide of muslim population in China, far worse than what happened in Bosnia and Palestine. And barely any muslim country objected. It's the west democracies like France who tries to restrain chinese perpetration on Uighurs.

Quite right, and I think it's unconscionable that Muslim nations, or indeed any nations, turn a blind eye to this oppression. However, my point was simply that French secularism seems to be used as more of a cudgel with which to beat Muslims into submission rather than a universal principle which applies to all religions equally.

[PSOL]

Can someone please tell me the difference between Macron and The Republicans at this point?

[Silent Hunter]

Can someone please tell me the difference between Macron and The Republicans at this point?

Macron believes in lockdowns?

[PSOL]

Can someone please tell me the difference between Macron and The Republicans at this point?

Macron believes in lockdowns?

Oh lol, I meant the French Republicans

[parochial boy]

It's probably helpful not to think of French political parties as if they were conventional parties that you get elsewhere. A French party is kind of more like... a gathering of bellends nominally working together because it happens to be politically expedient at this particular point int time

[Farmlands]

Can someone please tell me the difference between Macron and The Republicans at this point?

This is why I was down on the 2017 election, even while most left-wing people on the internet were celebrating. It is great that Le Pen was defeated, don't get me wrong, but nearly all that Macron has brought to France has been a deep erosion of workers' rights. Little else. It doesn't cheer me up.

[kelestian]

Do Christians also behead people from time to time in the name of God? I think no. Christianity isn't a problem here, radical islam is. Though i don't think Macron's measures would help.

I'm not well versed in the influence of Christianity in Russia – it's probably been muted for a while because of the USSR's state atheism – but here in the Southern United States, yes, people are absolutely killed for religious reasons by Christians from time to time. I mean, the 16th street bombing in Birmingham is well within living memory, and the Klan is absolutely an example of a Christian terrorist organization. You could also argue that the attack in Pittsburgh more recently or even in El Paso were both examples of terrorism influenced by the reaction of certain Christian sects to modern society. I won't make a false equivalency and say that religious violence is nearly as bad in the United States as it is in other parts of the world, but in my view that mostly comes down to differing levels of development.

And talking about hypocrisy: maybe French Society is somewhat islamophobic, but there is literally ongoing  genocide of muslim population in China, far worse than what happened in Bosnia and Palestine. And barely any muslim country objected. It's the west democracies like France who tries to restrain chinese perpetration on Uighurs.

Quite right, and I think it's unconscionable that Muslim nations, or indeed any nations, turn a blind eye to this oppression. However, my point was simply that French secularism seems to be used as more of a cudgel with which to beat Muslims into submission rather than a universal principle which applies to all religions equally.

That's examples of racial terrorism, not religious. Last time Western Christianity was that violent was probably 17th century.

As for Russia and Orthodoxy... Most of the people self declares allegiance to Christianity, but that's purely formal. 90% of active church-goers are 50+ years old. Sadly, i think Orthodoxy soon be dying religion. Russian Islam, on the other hand....

[Zinneke]

Can someone please tell me the difference between Macron and The Republicans at this point?

This is why I was so down on the 2017 election, even while most left-wing people on the internet were celebrating. Yes, it is great that Le Pen was defeated, don't get me wrong, but all that Macron has brought to France has been a deep and shameful erosion of workers' rights. Little else. Certainly not something that cheers me up.

I think that's far too simplistic a view and I think Macron, compared to say, Fillon, is a much better alternative.

Macron is a standard neo or ordo-liberal, yes. Macron is in an ivory tower, yes. Macron talks down to people and can't understand the anger behind Gillets Jaunes and other social struggles, yes. But Macron is not an ideologue like Fillon was. He has a semblance of pragmatism in his macroeconomic policy, and has identified areas where France needs to strengthen itself, most notably young people getting onto the labour market...something a lot of "progressive" politicians in other countries don't seem to understand fully (notable exception : Portugal).  

His foreign policy also is probably the most distant from a raison d'état they have had in the Vth Republic. Let's not forget that the first "left-wing" President of the Vth Republic likely ordered the explosion of a Greenpeace boat - and that Hollande was cut from the same cloth. By contrast Macron has actually had a much more normative-based foreign policy. And his European policy, progressives should have cheerleaded, because the fact is if we want to counter global capital we need a powerful regulatory and macroeconomic state. Merkel castrated him early on though which led him to be more cynical.

Regarding police violence, I see this as a characteristic of the Vth Republic again. The policy lobby is way too strong in the institutions, the Interior Ministry is often exploited by its occupant to crack down on anything and everything because they think that the next step will be the Elysée and you also have access to a lot of dirt on very important people (Sarko, Valls, Darmamin and all the ones Hash cited are all guilty of essentially indulging themselves in the position). I think rather than cracking down with pleasure Macron just sighs and gives the go ahead. He's an economics kind of guy who doesn't understand these issues - he's never been in a protest. Much like some of his more broader foreign policy, on this political issue I put it down to massive inexperience coupled with typical French politician arrogance.  

But while I would like to say the big brained massive take of "Macron is literally Fillon and Le Pen put together!" I honestly think when you look at how right-wing the French electorate is we in Europe are actually in some ways lucky to have Macron rather than two Putin sycophants battling it out, the latter of which would turn France into something resembling Hungarian democracy, appoint neo-fascists as heads of police to use as pawns and use every executive trick in the book while being a lapdog to their creditor : the Russians.

I'd also like to see a left-wing President, one that decentralises France, gives up executive powers to the parliament and government, invests bigly in modernising the country's cities and towns outside of Paris. But the French electorate isn't trending that way. Its quite remarkable tbh that Hollande won in 2012 out of sheer anti-Sarkozy sentiment and that a member of his cabinet took over.

[crals]

What exactly has Macron done that was so wrong in reaction to the recent terrorist attacks?

[Red Velvet]

Can someone please tell me the difference between Macron and The Republicans at this point?

This is why I was down on the 2017 election, even while most left-wing people on the internet were celebrating. It is great that Le Pen was defeated, don't get me wrong, but nearly all that Macron has brought to France has been a deep erosion of workers' rights. Little else. It doesn't cheer me up.

Tbh, on economic stuff I tend to side more with Le Pen than with Macron. It was the authoritarianism from her that made Macron a much preferable choice but if he’s going directly into the bigot route now, I would actually be very fine with Le Pen winning against Macron next time.

That is, if a Mélenchon or left-wing surge doesn’t happen because in that case, I would definitely prefer the left over both of them.

[Estrella]

Can someone please tell me the difference between Macron and The Republicans at this point?

This is why I was down on the 2017 election, even while most left-wing people on the internet were celebrating. It is great that Le Pen was defeated, don't get me wrong, but nearly all that Macron has brought to France has been a deep erosion of workers' rights. Little else. It doesn't cheer me up.

Tbh, on economic stuff I tend to side more with Le Pen than with Macron. It was the authoritarianism from her that made Macron a much preferable choice but if he’s going directly into the bigot route now, I would actually be very fine with Le Pen winning against Macron next time.

That is, if a Mélenchon or left-wing surge doesn’t happen because in that case, I would definitely prefer the left over both of them.

Marine Le Pen is many things, but she isn't any more leftist than Macron. The economic platform of a typical European "right-wing populist party with left-wing economic policies" consists of throwing large amounts of money in the general direction of pensioners, limiting welfare to those on the correct end of Fitzpatrick scale, complaints about globalism... and that's pretty much it. You could very well argue that Macron is, in a certain sense, less right-wing on economics than Le Pen: as flawed as his policies are, he doesn't want to stick his head in the sand and continue with a model that fails anyone who isn't in a public sector union or a pensioner (or, if we're comparing him to Sarkozy or Fillon, anyone who isn't a millionaire).

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

From "controversial" interview by Al Jazeera
https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1322604511073083394

[CumbrianLefty]

And for those of us who only learned a bit of (mostly long forgotten) French in school?

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

https://twitter.com/J_Bloodworth/status/1322672423347621888

Jupiter of France:

Pas chez nous. Je vous le dis très clairement, pas chez nous. Nous, nous croyons dans les Lumières. Et les citoyennes ont les mêmes droits que les citoyens. C'est existentiel. Et donc jamais, jamais, jamais je n'accepterai une association, quand bien même elle le ferait au nom d'une religion qui pousserait ses droits. En tout cas, qui dirait une petite fille n'est pas l'équivalent d'un petit garçon. Elle n'aura pas le même enseignement.

 


He'll be misrepresented by Media, taken out of context and crucified. Nevertheless, he'll persist.

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1324328921303756801

[NewYorkExpress]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54839434

French police have arrested seven people accused of offering fake negative Covid-19 test certificates to departing passengers at Paris Charles de Gaulle airport.

The six men and one woman were found to have more than 200 counterfeit certificates on their mobile phones.

The fakes would have been sold for up to €300 (£271) each, prosecutors say.

The arrests came after the certificate of a passenger bound for Ethiopia was found to be false.

The fake certificates bore the names of real Parisian medical laboratories.

Some airlines and destinations now require passengers to show a recent negative test certificate, under tighter immigration rules.

The seven had been running an unlicensed business as luggage-wrappers, but that had suffered when passenger numbers crashed in the coronavirus pandemic, AFP news agency reported, quoting an airport source.

They face charges of forgery and complicity in fraud, which carry a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a €375,000 fine.

[parochial boy]

Méluche is standing in 2022... on the condition that he gets a "people's nomination" of 150'000 people signing in support of his candidature. Which shouldn't be too difficult, you'd imagine.

I still don't like him, but if I'm honest, between him and the Greens I'd probably go for him at this point in time.