France General Discussion IV: Yellow Fever

[parochial boy]

Open letter in a right wing (far right?) paper from a large number of retired officers and active servicemen (incl. 20 generals) warning against a civil war if Islamism isn't brought under control and the authority of the state reestablished in the suburbs. Le Pen has naturally praised them, and apparently the Minister of Defence threatened to sack some of the active soldiers signing the letter.

https://www.valeursactuelles.com/politique/pour-un-retour-de-lhonneur-de-nos-gouvernants-20-generaux-appellent-macron-a-defendre-le-patriotisme/

Would appreciate some comments and/or clarification from our French posters. What's this about and is it a nothingburger or serious?

I saw a lot of outrage about this on French twitter about this on Monday. Along the lines of "they are threatening a coup". But didn't really read the thing until now. For the most part, it sort of comes across as an old drunk man ranting in a PMU bar. Until you get to this rather eye opening passage:

Par contre, si rien n’est entrepris, le laxisme continuera à se répandre inexorablement dans la société, provoquant au final une explosion et l’intervention de nos camarades d’active dans une mission périlleuse de protection de nos valeurs civilisationnelles et de sauvegarde de nos compatriotes sur le territoire national.

In other words:

"however, if nothing is done, this permissivenes will continue to spread throughout society, provoking a final explosion and the intervention of our active (serving) comrades in a perilous mission to protect our civilisational values and the safeguard of our compatriots on the national territory"

Did you know that apparently about 50% of words in English and French are practically identical?

Which, well, the nicest you can be here is that it is rather ambiguous in its phrasing.

Anyway, main point is that these guys are mostly retired, not particularly well known or influential, and it's probably just a load of hot air. As mentioned, it sounds like the rantings of someone who spends most of their days at home in front of Pascal Praud and Zemmour on CNews - so retired generals a pretty good demographic there

Maybe it's a little more worrying if reflective of widespread opinions in the army. They've already been through a scandal about being apparently perfectly happy to tolerate openly nazi recruits in recent weeks. So you might start to conclude that there are some pretty worrying opinions among the leadership. But mostly a nothingburger over all - VA has come up in this thread before, this sort of stirring the pot is exactly the sort of shït they adore.

[Geoffrey Howe]

The opinion polls showed 58% support for this. 83% among Le Pen supporters. Macron's supporters at 46%. The left is generally at 40% support for it. This perhaps puts into perspective why French politicians can behave and speak in certain ways towards Muslims. (I'm not defending that.)

[Lechasseur]

https://www.bfmtv.com/grand-lille/incendie-dans-une-eglise-de-lille-la-these-accidentelle-parait-confortee_AD-202105040484.html

Now one of Lille's main churches has burnt down...

[parochial boy]

cher-e-s lecteur-rice-s, professeur-e-s et écolier-ère-s

The government has now decided to ban écriture inclusive (gender neutral writing) at schools.

Honestly, nothing makes me support it more than the way it triggers conservatives and reactionaries.

[Estrella]

cher-e-s lecteur-rice-s, professeur-e-s et écolier-ère-s

The government has now decided to ban écriture inclusive (gender neutral writing) at schools.

Honestly, nothing makes me support it more than the way it triggers conservatives and reactionaries.

Ah yes, Emmanuel "liberté d'expression" Macron.

[parochial boy]

cher-e-s lecteur-rice-s, professeur-e-s et écolier-ère-s

The government has now decided to ban écriture inclusive (gender neutral writing) at schools.

Honestly, nothing makes me support it more than the way it triggers conservatives and reactionaries.

Ah yes, Emmanuel "liberté d'expression" Macron.

pourvu que vous ayez les mêmes opinions que lui, bien sûr 🤷‍♂️

[Geoffrey Howe]

cher-e-s lecteur-rice-s, professeur-e-s et écolier-ère-s

The government has now decided to ban écriture inclusive (gender neutral writing) at schools.

Honestly, nothing makes me support it more than the way it triggers conservatives and reactionaries.

Ah yes, Emmanuel "liberté d'expression" Macron.

Eh? From what I can tell the minister is just saying school documents shouldn't be written in it and pupils shouldn't be taught it because it's tough to understand [and looks awful]. Learning to write in school is about learning a standard set of rules which everyone can follow.

Anyway, they have taken the advice of the historian and 'perpetual secretary' of the Académie Française:

Au moment où la lutte contre les discriminations sexistes implique des combats portant notamment sur les violences conjugales, les disparités salariales et les phénomènes de harcèlement, l’écriture inclusive, si elle semble participer de ce mouvement, est non seulement contre-productive pour cette cause même, mais nuisible à la pratique et à l’intelligibilité de la langue française.

 

[Lechasseur]

https://www.bienpublic.com/politique/2021/05/09/immigration-michel-barnier-pense-qu-il-faudra-changer-la-constitution

Michel Barnier, the EU's former Brexit negociator, now wants a moratorium on immigration.

And Gabriel Attal, the government's spokesman, has said that LR are increasingly becoming a "satellite of RN" (which frankly is true at this point).

[parochial boy]

cher-e-s lecteur-rice-s, professeur-e-s et écolier-ère-s

The government has now decided to ban écriture inclusive (gender neutral writing) at schools.

Honestly, nothing makes me support it more than the way it triggers conservatives and reactionaries.

Ah yes, Emmanuel "liberté d'expression" Macron.

Eh? From what I can tell the minister is just saying school documents shouldn't be written in it and pupils shouldn't be taught it because it's tough to understand [and looks awful]. Learning to write in school is about learning a standard set of rules which everyone can follow.

Anyway, they have taken the advice of the historian and 'perpetual secretary' of the Académie Française:

Au moment où la lutte contre les discriminations sexistes implique des combats portant notamment sur les violences conjugales, les disparités salariales et les phénomènes de harcèlement, l’écriture inclusive, si elle semble participer de ce mouvement, est non seulement contre-productive pour cette cause même, mais nuisible à la pratique et à l’intelligibilité de la langue française.

The "historian" though, that's the thing isn't it? The Académie is packed full of people who aren't actually experts on the questions they are supposed to be dealing with - heaven forbid they ever actually involve actual linguists in making these sorts of decisions (and also the absurdity of a generally reactionary organisation desperately trying to outlaw changes in the French language that are happening whether they like them or not).

It's why they keep on making non-sensical decisions like insisting on saying "la Covid" because it's "une maladie", even though we say "le radar" or "le weekend" despite those words being based on "la radio" and "une semaine". Like, they flat out invented a rule, when any consultation with any consultation with an actual trained linguistic would have set them right. All they managed to do there was to start a pointless culture war, and almost everyone kept on saying "le covid" anyway because you can't actually just set arbitrary rules like that in a living thing like a language.

I don't think écriture inclusive is particularly difficult or ugly either - but I  guess I'm also more used to it, because it is much more common place in Switzerland than in France, in part because the Swiss are generally far less conservative about the language.

[Geoffrey Howe]

I’m very conflicted on the idea of the Académie. On the one hand a rigid language tends to be less enjoyable, less to play around with for poetry for example. On the other hand I quite like the idea of a group of eminent persons deciding matters of preferred style - as long as people don’t have to follow it. I would probably adhere religiously to their views. The OED, I suppose, used to play the de facto role that the Académie plays.

I don’t think you need technical linguists; rather people with a grasp of how the language works, and experience and eminence in other fields. I, for one, find écriture inclusive nearly illegible.

[Zinneke]

THe police unions wants "Israel-Palestine" checkpoints at all the "quartiers populaires"
The Army has 100.000 plus people baying for blood.

At want point does the seditionist fifth column really resemble what we are seeing recently in far right circles.

Oh yeah they are the "quiet majority" I forgot. Let's just toss out seperation of law enforcement and politics, or civil-military relations, in favour of our police and military forces blackmailing the state.

Don't want to share a political union with these autocratic wankers.

PS : If "open letters" from tom dick and harry were banned the West as a whole would be a better place.

[parochial boy]

If they were purely advisory, and if they purely there with a view to an aesthetic or artistic use of the language.

I’m very conflicted on the idea of the Académie. On the one hand a rigid language tends to be less enjoyable, less to play around with for poetry for example. On the other hand I quite like the idea of a group of eminent persons deciding matters of preferred style - as long as people don’t have to follow it. I would probably adhere religiously to their views. The OED, I suppose, used to play the de facto role that the Académie plays.

I don’t think you need technical linguists; rather people with a grasp of how the language works, and experience and eminence in other fields. I, for one, find écriture inclusive nearly illegible.

The problem is that the stuff they come out with does actually hurt the language, and hurt it's comprehensibility. Like the complete refusal to reform the accords du participe passé. There is, in academic linguistics, a fairly well established consensus that they quite simply don't exist in spoken French any more. Most people actually struggle to use them, if I look through some off my various chats, half the time people don't even try. This is all a problem because it makes written French harder, and that makes it harder for people to communicate (especially people with foreign backgrounds, immigrants, second language learners) when they have to learn written rules that they simply don't use in spoken French (and even more so with the various bizarre spellings).

So in that respect, the académie tieing themselves to some romanticised version of ye olde French, and being taken so seriously in terms of setting linguistic policy, it actually damages the language. It makes it harder to communicate, harder to understand, puts people off learning it and more.

If they actually spoke to linguistics, and actually learned to live with the way that languages change - it would do a lot of good for the status of French as a language.

[Geoffrey Howe]

On the matter of écriture inclusive, apparently the reason there is a default masculine is because in PIE the distinction was animate/inanimate not masculine/feminine and the masculine evolved from the animate.

[lfromnj]

https://www.newsweek.com/france-bans-gender-neutral-language-schools-citing-harm-learning-1590092

France bans any usage of gender neutral writing being taught in schools claiming its harmful to the language and students.

[NewYorkExpress]

So, Macron's walking, greeting the crowd in Tain L'Hermitage, when some guy slaps him in the face.

An onlooker reached out and slapped French President Emmanuel Macron during an appearance in southern France on Tuesday, and the incident was captured on video.

Macron was greeting onlookers behind a security barrier during an appearance in Tain-l'Hermitage when he was hit.

Macron was shaking hands with the crowd when the man, wearing a green T-shirt and mask, grabbed his right arm and slapped him on the left side of his face.

[buritobr]

The guy who slaped Macron is a monarchist. I didn't know this kind of people exists today in France.

[S019]

https://twitter.com/gabriel_pogrund/status/1402516912022724610

Melenchon made anti-Semitic comments

[CumbrianLefty]

The guy who slaped Macron is a monarchist. I didn't know this kind of people exists today in France.

They have always existed, they have never been that numerous.

[NewYorkExpress]

According to Macron, Operation Barkhane, the multi-year anti-terrorism mission in Chad, Mali, Niger, Mauritania and Burkina Faso is ending.

France is to end its years-long anti-terror mission targeting Islamists in the Sahel region of West Africa, French President Emmanuel Macron announced Thursday.

However, the mission, known as Operation Barkhane, will be replaced by a more international effort, Macron told a press conference ahead of the G7 summit. He added that additional details would be announced "in the weeks to come."

France currently has 5,100 troops in the region in connection with Operation Barkhane, operating across Chad, Mali, Niger, Mauritania and Burkina Faso, according to the French Ministry of Defense.

Despite their efforts, Islamist forces continue to provoke instability in the region, almost a decade after French troops were first deployed in Mali to contain their advances. Meanwhile, in France, Operation Barkhane is increasingly seen as a long-running drain on resources with no clear end in sight.

[Lechasseur]

The guy who slaped Macron is a monarchist. I didn't know this kind of people exists today in France.

They have always existed, they have never been that numerous.

They're obviously not that numerous, but they are definitely more common than you'd think

[Lechasseur]

https://www.cnews.fr/france/2021-06-17/6-francais-sur-10-favorables-un-referendum-pour-limiter-limmigration-1094604

Apparently a majority of French people favour holding a referendum on limiting immigration.

Any thoughts on this? And would this even be feasible?

[parochial boy]

It's something of a truism in polling that you can find a majority in favour of holding a referendum on just about any subject you want. So in this case, C"News" commissioning a poll on this is just a partisan attempt to push the public discourse in a direction that is closer its own fantastical obsessions.

As it is France already has basically the lowest level of immigration of every Western European country, and net migration that is barely positive, so it's not like they have especially much to complain about on the subject.

[Former President tack50]

It's something of a truism in polling that you can find a majority in favour of holding a referendum on just about any subject you want. So in this case, C"News" commissioning a poll on this is just a partisan attempt to push the public discourse in a direction that is closer its own fantastical obsessions.

As it is France already has basically the lowest level of immigration of every Western European country, and net migration that is barely positive, so it's not like they have especially much to complain about on the subject.

To be fair, perhaps asking more directly "Do you think that immigration to France should be more heavily restricted?" or something along those lines would make for a better poll but given trends in France I am fairly convinced that the result of the poll (or a hypothetical referendum) would be "yes".

Also, is France really a place that isn't attracting immigrants at all? France isn't exactly the wealthiest Western European economy or the one with the best job market but the situation there is still pretty good and most immigrants, or at least the ones that people "worry about" (ie refugees from Africa and the Middle East); in many cases speak French as their own native language or as a 2nd language.

[NewYorkExpress]

French prosecutors are investigating several major fashion retailers for concealing crimes against humanity committed by China in Xianjing.

French prosecutors have opened an investigation into four fashion retailers suspected of concealing "crimes against humanity" in China's Xinjiang region, a judicial source said on Thursday.

The procedure is linked to accusations against China over its treatment of minority Muslim Uyghurs in the region, including the use of forced labour, the source said.

China denies all accusations of abuse in the region.

The source told Reuters Uniqlo France, a unit of Japan's Fast Retailing (9983.T), Zara owner Inditex (ITX.MC), France's SMCP (SMCP.PA) and Skechers (SKX.N) were the subject of the investigation, confirming a report by French media website Mediapart.

"An investigation has been opened by the crimes against humanity unit within the antiterrorism prosecutor's office following the filing of a complaint," the source said.

France has a Central Office to Fight Crimes against Humanity, Genocide and War Crimes, founded in 2013.

[NewYorkExpress]

Marine Le Pen is facing criticism for making National Rally too mainstream.

French far-right leader Marine Le Pen is facing stinging criticism for making her party too mainstream, dulling its extremist edge and ignoring grassroots members, with some warning that this could cost her votes in next year’s presidential race.

The rumblings grew louder after the National Rally’s failure a week ago in France’s regional elections, and come just ahead of this weekend’s party congress.

Le Pen is the anti-immigration party’s unquestioned boss, and her fortunes aren’t expected to change at the two-day event in the southwestern town of Perpignan, hosted by Mayor Louis Aliot — Le Pen’s former companion and, above all, the party’s top performer in last year’s municipal elections. But there could be an uncomfortable reckoning just as Le Pen is trying to inject new dynamism into the National Rally.

Critics say Le Pen has erased her party’s anti-establishment signature by trying to make it more palatable to the mainstream right. To so that, she strove to remove the stigma of racism and antisemitism that clung to the party under her now-ostracized father, Jean-Marie Le Pen. She even changed the party’s name from National Front, as it was called under her father, who co-founded it in 1972 and led it for four decades.