Survivor megathread

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Someone who got voted out shouldn't win. Terrible outcome.

I'm not sure if I agree 100%, but Chris had a month on the "Edge of Extinction" to bond with the jury outside of the context of the game. It's no surprise that the few votes he didn't get were from people voted out relatively late and didn't have as much time with him there.

I wouldn't particularly object to a Redemption Island/Edge of Extinction that just happened once, at the merge and then no more (kinda like the Outcasts twist from way back in the day), but the idea that a guy can get voted out on Day 8, sit around for a month hanging out with the jury, and then jump back in and win is crazy.

Also, does anyone actually like the mandatory firemaking challenge at F4? Surely not, right?

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Just caught up on this. Ugh.

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Awful and horrible season, we all know why. Let's all pretend it never happened and move on to season 40.

You should rank all the seasons

That's going to be a bit dicey. Think back to seasons 5 and 8, which had equal or worse incidents to the one from this year. Should we adjust and also tank those seasons? And what about all the rampant creepiness and homophobia from the early seasons, including some from people who are still legendary fan favorites?

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Off the top of my head

Great seasons: 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 20, 28
Good seasons: 6, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 18, 19, 29, 30, 33, 37
Meh seasons: 11, 12, 17, 22, 25, 27, 31, 32, 34, 36, 38
Bad seasons: 5, 8, 21, 23, 24, 26, 35, 39

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Several factors making recent seasons worse:

• The firemaking at final 4 challenge is awful. It makes Survivor a totally different game at the very end. It single-handedly ruined H/H/H since they didn't even tell the contestants about it until right beforehand. I would been fine with Ben getting himself into the final 3 and then winning, but firemaking surprise makes him the second worst winner of alltime IMO. Even in the later seasons where the contestants knew ahead of time, it's silly -- does anyone actually like it?
• Chris getting voted off on day 8, coming back into the game on day 36 and then winning on day 39 was also a joke. And he did play well in his 3 days back in the game, but it probably didn't mean much - he spent weeks hanging out with the jury on the Edge of Extinction, so of course they were inclined to vote for him. I can't believe they're actually bringing this back for Winners at War.

• Honestly I wouldn't mind this if it were pre-merge only. The Outcasts twist in Pearl Islands was great. Had Lil won season 7, or Rick Devens won in season 38, I would have been fine with it since they was only out for a few days. But no one should be able to step back in at the very end at be able to win. Season 23 would probably be the worst of all-time had Ozzy not gotten upset in the final immunity challenge and therefore won after getting voted out twice. (Thank God they didn't have the firemaking f4 back then or he probably would've anyway!)

• Way, way too many immunity idols these days. I didn't mind having one hidden at Exile Island, and I have thought the ones hidden at challenges to be kinda clever, but it just gets kinda ridiculous when they rehide a new one every time one is played. It's way too luck-based to just happen to find one. Russell finding 2 without any clues back in season 19 should have clued in the producers to this, but I think they learned the opposite lesson.
• And idols should be the extent of it. No more "steal a vote," "block an idol," "extra votes," etc. If you don't want to get voted off, convince people not to vote you off. I don't like all these lucky random elements getting thrown into it.

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Several factors making recent seasons worse:

• The firemaking at final 4 challenge is awful. It makes Survivor a totally different game at the very end. It single-handedly ruined H/H/H since they didn't even tell the contestants about it until right beforehand. I would been fine with Ben getting himself into the final 3 and then winning, but firemaking surprise makes him the second worst winner of alltime IMO. Even in the later seasons where the contestants knew ahead of time, it's silly -- does anyone actually like it?
• Chris getting voted off on day 8, coming back into the game on day 36 and then winning on day 39 was also a joke. And he did play well in his 3 days back in the game, but it probably didn't mean much - he spent weeks hanging out with the jury on the Edge of Extinction, so of course they were inclined to vote for him. I can't believe they're actually bringing this back for Winners at War.

• Honestly I wouldn't mind this if it were pre-merge only. The Outcasts twist in Pearl Islands was great. Had Lil won season 7, or Rick Devens won in season 38, I would have been fine with it since they was only out for a few days. But no one should be able to step back in at the very end at be able to win. Season 23 would probably be the worst of all-time had Ozzy not gotten upset in the final immunity challenge and therefore won after getting voted out twice. (Thank God they didn't have the firemaking f4 back then or he probably would've anyway!)

• Way, way too many immunity idols these days. I didn't mind having one hidden at Exile Island, and I have thought the ones hidden at challenges to be kinda clever, but it just gets kinda ridiculous when they rehide a new one every time one is played. It's way too luck-based to just happen to find one. Russell finding 2 without any clues back in season 19 should have clued in the producers to this, but I think they learned the opposite lesson.
• And idols should be the extent of it. No more "steal a vote," "block an idol," "extra votes," etc. If you don't want to get voted off, convince people not to vote you off. I don't like all these lucky random elements getting thrown into it.

I agree with all of that, especially the fire-making part. I remember when that was introduced, it seemed like a way to give Ben a lifeline in that season and help him win, because he was going to be voted out otherwise. It really upended the game in a big way that didn't seem fair as a surprise.

I also wish they would just go back to having a final two, they still do that sometimes, but the third person in the finale so rarely ever even gets votes, that I don't see the purpose of keeping it most of the time.

That also goes for a lot of the arbitrary classifications of the contestants as we've seen in some recent seasons. They just get tribe-swapped after nine or so days anyway, so what's the point? To make some sort of statement as to what kind of demographic is superior?

I would love to see a season that gets rid of all the gimmicks and returns to its basic roots. Hell that could even be the gimmick: 'Survivor: Back to Basics!' No hidden immunity idols!

when did they stop with the final two on a regular basis

Season 13 was the first to have a final 3, although 16 and 28 had a final 2 as a surprise twist, which was also lame. It should be declared ahead of time.

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Can't believe they're bringing back EoE after the backlash, but these jurors will probably respect the game enough not to crown a winner from there.

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Three thoughts from the premiere:

• At first I thought it was ridiculous to say that the contestants could use their fire tokens to buy food or alcohol, because surely a winner wouldn't just blow them like that, but then I thought that having fire tokens might make someone a target, and it might be a good way to lower the target on yourself by spending tokens to buy a few pizzas for a tribal feast, and also get in everyone's good graces. Just don't overplay it like Angelina did.
• Kim or Tyson never made the point (at least not on air) the so-called "poker alliance" supposedly included Jeremy. Because Natalie was voted off, the "poker alliance" must not exist, because it means either Boston Rob was on the losing side of the vote (unlikely because surely Rob would have been voted out had he not been on the winning side of the numbers) or else Rob voted off Jeremy's close ally, meaning the alliance isn't real. I think Kim making that point to Yul privately might have convinced him. On the other hand, I was impressed that Yul pretty much made that whole thing up and got everyone to believe it.
• I didn't actually expect this or anything, but I was really hoping Natalie would show up to EoE and Chris would be there as the surprise 21st contestant on the game. I think it would have really fit to have a direct reminder to the contestants that you can come out of EoE and win, and also put Chris at a deserved disadvantage, since most people don't really consider him a legit winner.

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OMG! Loving this season.

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Is it safe to say Wendell was just trying to scam Parvati out of her fire tokens and Nick and Yul were in on it?

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Prediction: Boston Rob gets back into the game on the finale, based on the amount of screentime he's still getting and the fact that he tends to be good at challenges.

I will be incredibly disappointed if he makes the F3 and gets a jury vote other than Amber's.

Like I said earlier, Edge of Extinction would be fine if it were pre-merge only. It's really dumb to have it again at the end. How could the producers not have known there would be a huge backlash to someone spending almost the whole season on EoE and then coming back in to win?

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So I think Sandra is the only one who isn't going to be in the jury, right?

Assuming no one else raises the white flag, correct.

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Why in the world did Nick/Jeremy/Michele not get rid of Tony when they had a chance? They're all thinking about who can they beat in the final 3, but why doesn't occur to them that Tony is going to be really hard to beat at the end?

Also, I'll change my prediction to Natalie getting back in next week, but if she actually wins a jury vote, that would probably go down as The Day Survivor Died.

Final thought: If Nick doesn't spend all of his fire tokens, he may still be in the game, since Ben was close to winning immunity, and Michele is presumably the target instead.

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Satisfied with the outcome. Natalie winning would have been a "cancel Survivor" level disgrace. Hopefully the Edge of Extinction never returns.

Actually, it would probably be tolerable if they just had the 1 return challenge at the merge, at took the top male and female contestants and that was it. But even better would be to never let voted out contestants back in.

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Natalie should have won it, she helped shape the game more than Tony did without even being in it full time. Didn't help that a lot of people played stupid this season and knew Tony didn't want them but refused to take him on.

We just thought Chris's win was bad. Imagine if someone got voted off on Day 2 and then didn't play perfectly and epicly when coming back, and still won.

Had Natalie actually used her idol to get rid of her target at 6, then survived without an idol at 5, and then stood up to take down Tony in fire at 4, well I still wouldn't want her to win, but it wouldn't have been as bad as if she'd won last night. Natalie had all that time on the Edge to get tokens and advantages, bought 3 for the return challenge, and still only barely won it.

If say, Sophie, had come back in the game and played well (as in taking down Tony herself), I could see a case for her. She'd say she was in for most of the game and had great play before and after her won screw-up (where she got 4 of 9 votes and was eliminated). But Natalie just had nothing other than getting voted out so early she had the jump on finding advantages and then she happened to find an immunity idol at 5.

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Chris

• Survived two tribal councils before being sent to the Edge, voting for the eliminated contestant both times
• Returned to the game at final 6
• Survived the F6 council without winning immunity or playing an idol, because he convinced Lauren to play an idol for him. Voted for the eliminated contestant (Victoria).
• Survived the F5 council by playing his idol. Voted for the eliminated contestant (Lauren).
• Won the F4 immunity and gave it up to make fire against the obvious winner in any F3 matchup
• Made good relationships with the jury throughout his time on the Edge

Natalie

• Survived 0 tribal councils before being voted off first
• Returned to the game at final 6
• Had to use her own idol to survive F6, but her plan to vote out Ben failed
• Only survived at F5 because she happened to luckily find another immunity idol. This time she did vote for the eliminated contestant (Ben), although she really had nothing to do with Sarah's decision.
• Apparently did not make many good relationships with the jury throughout her time on the Edge
• Won the F4 immunity, but choosing Tony vs. Sarah was a terrible decision. She could have faced Tony herself and if she'd won, she would have gotten something on her resume. Or, even better, matchup Tony and Michelle, and if Tony wins, Sarah might siphon some votes from Tony, and Michelle may vote for her, at least a lot more likely to vote for her than Sarah was.
• Sent Tony's two closest allies to the jury where they'd be sure to vote for him without them being mad at Tony

So while there's no doubt that Chris is the worst winner of all time by default, he at least has some impressive big moves on his resume. Natalie's game is nowhere close to that, and her winning would have been a franchise-killing disgrace.

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Seems like we usually speculate on contestants' politics on these threads, so I'll give it a stab. Note that I haven't scoured through anyone's Facebook or Twitter pages, so I could be totally wrong about some of these.

In order from right to left:

• Danni - Definitely gives off a conservative vibe. From Kansas.
• Kim - Also get a conservative vibe from her. And IIRC she is pretty religious. From Texas.
• Tony - No smoking gun, but a white male cop from New Jersey seems like a Republican.
• Sarah - She described herself as conservative in Game Changers during the Zeke outing controversy, although she did support him and use his preferred pronouns. Police officer from Iowa. The speech she gave to the jury at F6 was pretty feminist, so who knows. She may be a Trump-Biden voter, she may not see her speech as un-conservative, or she may have been playing to a mostly liberal jury.
• Ben - A veteran with PTSD issues. From Idaho. Son of a gay father. Wouldn't be shocked if he generally didn't vote, but if he does and I had to predict, I would guess Republican. Also could be libertarian or drawn to Trump's non-interventionism.
• Nick - Not really sure on him - no obvious vibe. He's white and comes from an >80% Trump county in rural Kentucky. But he is a public defender, which seems like a liberal career choice.
• Tyson - A faithful Mormon family man originally from Utah, but sure doesn't give off a Republican vibe.
• Rob & Amber - I remember them endorsing Kerry back in 2004, but aside from that they don't give off strong vibes either way. Plausibly Obama-Trumpers.
• Denise - No smoking gun, but a sex therapist seems like a Democrat.
• Parvati - No smoking gun, but a female yoga teacher from California seems like a Democrat.
• Sandra - No smoking gun, but Puerto Rican woman vote mostly Democratic.
• Michelle - Could be misreading, but I think she gives off a liberal vibe, as urban millennial woman from New Jersey with a black ex-casual boyfriend.
• Adam - Gives off a strongly liberal vibe. Urban millennial from California.
• Sophie - Also gives off a strongly liberal vibe. Seemed uncomfortable with her tribe's religiosity in her first season. From California.
• Wendell - No obvious evidence, but assuming an urban millennial black man is probably on the Left unless there's evidence otherwise
• Jeremy - Black man from Massachusetts. Recognized and disliked John Rocker for his racist and homophobic comments.
• Ethan, Yul, Natalie - Come from Democratic minority groups and spoke about their liberal politics during their original seasons.

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So, now that the season is done, who should have been on the S40 cast? There were 18 winners not cast. Here's what I've gathered from some Internet articles. I've underlined the ones that I think realistically could have been brought back if production wanted them.

Only 4 women were left out of the cast.

• Tina (S2-Australia, also returned for S8-All Stars and S27-Blood vs. Water) - Producers talked to her but ultimately chose not to cast her, to her disappointment. She would have been 58 during filming, so oldest on the show by nearly a decade, but definitely not too old.
• Vecepia (S4-Marquesas) - Apparently never heard a word from producers
• Jenna (S6-Amazon, also returned for S8-All Stars) - Not sure. She was arrested for DUI a couple years ago, but apparently not charged. She dated Ethan for 10 years.
• Natalie W. (S19-Samoa) - Didn't find whether she was invited or even contacted by production. Not usually considered a very deserving winner.

14 men were not included:

• Richard (S1-Borneo, also returned for S8-All Stars) - Apparently rejected due to his incident with Sue in S8, especially in the light of the #MeToo movement and the S39 incident.
• Brian (S5-Thailand) - Appears to be on the outs with producers and generally considered to be too slimy to come back. Arrested for shooting a puppy (wtf)
• Chris D. (S9-Vanuatu) - No idea if he was considered.
• Tom (S10-Palau, also returned for S20-Heroes vs. Villains) - Reportedly has a lot of health problems, and there are photos online showing he's put on a lot of weight. However, despite this apparently was close to making the cut anyway
• Aras (S12-Exile Island, also returned for S27-Blood vs. Water) - Apparently talked to producers but ultimately not interested in coming back
• Earl (S14-Fiji) - Mutual interest between him and producers in him returning, but had to decline because his baby was born shortly before filming and spent a few months in the hospital
• Todd (S15-China) - Not sure. He's had a big alcohol problem since being on Survivor, but interviews suggest he was interested in returning
• Bob (S17-Gabon) - According to his Twitter he would have said yes, but was not invited. Would have been pushing 70 at the time of filming. Not usually considered a very deserving winner.
• JT (S18-Tocantins, also returned for S20-Heroes vs. Villains and S34-Game Changers) - Some rumors about production not liking him, but couldn't find anything definite. Did not live up to his S18 reputation in his subsequent appearances.
• Fabio (S21-Nicaragua) - Didn't find whether he was invited or even contacted by production. Not usually considered a very deserving winner.
• Cochran (S26-Caramoan, previously on S23-South Pacific) - Apparently production really wanted him but he declined.
• Mike (S30-World Apart) - Was apparently not invited. Has had some "controversial" Islamophobic Tweets, but IMO they weren't bad enough to exclude him by themselves.
• Chris U. (S38-Edge of Extinction) - Controversial winner, and he didn't know for sure that he had won while the show was being cast.
• Tommy (S39-Island of the Idols) - S40 was filmed before any of S39 aired, so it would have spoiled to Tommy that he'd won, and when the cast list leaked, the whole country would have known the S39 winner months early.

Ultimately, I would have loved to see them go with a 24-member cast, adding Richard (too iconic and I don't think it would have been all that controversial, at least not boycotts or anything), Tina, Jenna, and ... really any of the remaining men. I'll be controversial and say Fabio, who would have brought something totally different to the cast. Vecepia and Chris D. would have been interesting to see again if any of those 4 declined. Maybe all 6 can be considered for WAW2 once they have enough female winners to do this format again.

I actually think Richard, Jenna, and Fabio could have done well this season. I wonder if the Jenna/Ethan pairing would have been as awkward as Michelle/Wendell.

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Here would be my casting for some often-discussed themes for future returnee seasons, keeping in mind that production would favor some more recent people for some of these (don't personally agree with every characterization)

Winners vs. Final 3 losers

Winners not on WAW

• Vecepia, Todd, Natalie W., Mike, Chris U., Tommy

People they beat

• Neleh, Amanda, Russell, Carolyn, Gavin, Noura

WAW Contestants who also won another game or lost in the F3

• Tony, Michelle, Sandra, Parvati

People they beat

• Woo, Aubry, Jonny Fairplay, Cirie

This is similar to a "legends"-type cast, and you have extra layers, since in addition to all of the pairs, Tony also beat Michelle, Sandra also beat Parvati and Russell, and Parvati also beat Amanda.

Possible alternates could include Tina/Colby and Aras/Terry.

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That's not a bad idea, but even a season that just consists of runners-up probably could be entertaining too. We won't be seeing Russell Hantz among those contestants though. To my knowledge that bridge was burned since his psycho nephew made his appearances on the show.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised, but I'd love to see him play one more time. I think he's an obvious early boot though.

Another idea would be a combo of Fans vs. Favorites and Blood vs. Water

• The Culpeppers
• Laura & Ciera (though she better not vote off her mom this time)
• Russell & Brandon (if allowed back)
• Any of the Survivor couples, such as Sebastian & Jenna from Ghost Island, or Jon & Jaclyn, or Alex (S6) and Kim (S3), etc.
• 4-5 pairs of new contestants

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Thanks to the mods for merging these threads so that we can have general Survivor discussion organized in a single thread.

Off the top of my head

Great seasons: 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 20, 28
Good seasons: 6, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 18, 19, 29, 30, 33, 37, 40
Meh seasons: 11, 12, 17, 22, 25, 27, 31, 32, 34, 36, 38
Bad seasons: 5, 8, 21, 23, 24, 26, 35, 39

I did consider adding WAW into the top tier, but the Edge of Extinction was terrible and almost ruined the game again, there were still too many idols/advantages, and the editing was a bit confusing -- like, from the viewer's perspective Nick just joined the majority alliance at the final 10 without any explanation, but even though he was working with Michelle, she wasn't a part of it?

Still though, it was a very entertaining season and everybody came to play hard. I think I would rank it 3rd in the current "second half" of Survivor (seasons 21-40) behind 28 and 37.

Has anyone watched any of the English-speaking international seasons (Australia, New Zealand, South Africa)?

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I like immunity idols fine, but only with caveats

• They should only be found with clues. I don't like how people just stumble upon them nowadays. It's too random and feels too easy to quasi-rig. Like Ben finding all those idols, just too lucky. I like the ones that are either hidden in plain sight so that it's risky to grab it, or buried somewhere that you would have to have clues to get to them.
• Stop rehiding them after they're played. We don't need an idol in play every time. Imagine having a hidden immunity idol at each beach at the start, only findable with clues that are given out as a reward. And once they're played, they're played. Ultimately, "idols" shouldn't be someone's main strategy to win.

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After some more consideration, I've divided the seasons into more tiers. The main way I did this was by how interested I'd be in rewatching.

The Absolute Best: 1, 20
The Best: 2, 4, 7, 20, 28
Great: 3, 13, 14, 18, 19, 30, 33, 37, 40
Good: 6, 9, 10, 15, 16, 17, 31, 32
Decent: 11, 12, 25, 27, 29, 34, 36
Fair: 22, 23, 35, 38
Poor: 5, 8, 21, 24, 26, 39

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I have over the last month found the Australian seasons and been watching my way through them. The current Australian series started in 2016 and has had 1 season per year, meaning the 5th (All Stars) aired earlier this year. However, most online sources consider these to be season 3-7, as there were seasons in 2002 and 2006 on other networks. These are my thoughts on the seasons I've watched, with significant spoilers marked.

• Australian season 1 from 2002 is OK. It's painfully low-budget, and the challenges are super simple. Being so early, many of the players don't even think alliances are ethical.
  Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.

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  The players who did come to play unsurprisingly go far, and the winner Rob is likable and strategic. It's really sad knowing that he, along with his son that he talks about on the show, died several years later in a car accident, putting a damper on the whole season.
  
  
• Australian season 2 from 2006 is pretty bad. It's a "celebrity" season, though I'd never heard of any of them. It includes among others some sports stars, a politician, and several women who'd been in the Australian version of Playboy.
  Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.

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  It plays out like you'd expect, with little strategy, although no one is ethically opposed to it. Then, in a really dumb twist, two players who'd been voted out returned to the game at the final 3, now final 5, and make it to the final 2, where one wins. I think Guy is a worse winner than Chris U., as at least Chris played hard after his return.
  
  
• Now we're on to the current run of the show. Australian season 3 from 2016 is great. I liked pretty much all of the contestants. The production values of the show are equal or higher than the American version, but the main difference is how much longer the seasons of the current run are. Starting with 2016, seasons have 26 episodes, and many of them last longer than an hour even without ads, meaning it takes over twice as long to watch a modern Australian season than a US season. Seasons have 24 contestants, so it's kinda disorienting at the start until you start learning who everyone is.
  Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.

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  I found almost the entire cast to be likable, and the longer run of the show gives time to develop pre-merge boots like Andrew, Craig, Phoebe pretty well. From what I understand, the Brooke/Flick/El alliance wasn't popular with the fanbase, but I liked all of them fine. I was rooting for Nick, and to some extent Jennah-Louise, but I was fine with the way it turned out. I actually didn't particularly like Kristie through the run of the show, but after her FTC performance, I was as shocked as the jury members to realize she deserved the win.
  
  
• Australian season 4 from 2017 was also great. I didn't love it as much as the Survivor reddit community, but still highly entertaining.
  Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.

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  Both this season and AU3 had a tribal council where 2 people were voted out but then surprise! they go to the other tribe rather than out of the game. I didn't mind it in AU3, but I didn't like the way it went down here. One thing I really loved in this season was how an alliance of 6 set up a 3-3-3 split just in case an idol was played, but then one of those 6 grabbed another member of his alliance and one from the minority to turn it into a 3-2-2-2 on another member of his alliance. That's even cooler than Tony's move against Sophie in WaW. The winner was fine. Played a good game, likable enough, but nothing special.
  
  

Overall, I think I liked AU3 a little better than most people and AU4 a little less. My opinions of the seasons from long ago are probably typical, but nobody really talks about those.

The Absolute Best: 1, 20
The Best: 2, 4, 7, 20, 28
Great: 3, 13, 14, 18, 19, 30, 33, 37, 40, AU3, AU4
Good: 6, 9, 10, 15, 16, 17, 31, 32
Decent: 11, 12, 25, 27, 29, 34, 36
Fair: 22, 23, 35, 38, AU1
Poor: 5, 8, 21, 24, 26, 39, AU2

Next up is season 5, Champions vs. Contenders. I know that Russell Hantz (!) is one of the contestants, and I know approximately how well he does from watching his YouTube videos.

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The only runner up that still genuinely pisses me off is that Coach lost by only two votes. He was so close to winning a perfect season

He probably shouldn't have led the tribe in prayer to ask God to them find an idol that he had secretly already found. What a hypocrite. Sophie busting him at the FTC for that was gloriously savage.