Discipline Problems in Classrooms reaching crises levels

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

It's the parents fault, nearly every time. The parents should make it clear to their children that disruptive behavior is not acceptable.

So just exactly why is it the parents' fault?  How, exactly, are they creating this problem?

(I'm not saying it's NOT the parents' fault; it is certainly their fault in part, but the "how" and "why" of this is quite relevant.)

[Calthrina950]

It's the parents fault, nearly every time. The parents should make it clear to their children that disruptive behavior is not acceptable.

So just exactly why is it the parents' fault?  How, exactly, are they creating this problem?

(I'm not saying it's NOT the parents' fault; it is certainly their fault in part, but the "how" and "why" of this is quite relevant.)

Many parents these days seem not to be teaching their children how to be polite to others, or how to act in public. And they tolerate disrespect from their children within their households. I would venture to say that parental influence is probably the overriding factor (along with the influence of one's environment and peers), on how children develop.

[136or142]

I wonder the degree to which this is related to the increase in mental health disorders in children such as autism and bipolar.  This would suggest that the increase in these things isn't just due to better identification or other statistical explanations.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/22/mental-health-disorders-on-rise-among-children-nhs-figures

It is true that in aggregate people with mental health disorders are no more violent than people without mental health disorders

https://ontario.cmha.ca/documents/violence-and-mental-health-unpacking-a-complex-issue/

but, it may be the case that some of those with mental health disorders who have violent tendencies are likely to be more violent than violent people without mental health disorders. 

For instance, violent children without mental health disorders might kick once or scratch, violent children with mental health disorders might throw books or punch repeatedly.

They might also be more likely to act out in social settings where violent people without mental health disorders would be more likely to restrain themselves.

Of course, I'm just hypothesizing, I don't have any evidence.


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If true, this is certainly a problem that has been coming for a long time.  Personally I blame toxins in the environment.

https://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/articles-1/2017/7/10/the-role-of-heavy-metals-and-environmental-toxins-in-psychiatric-disorders

[Lord Admirale]

This is what fortnite has done to our society.

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

This is a complicated problem that does not have one cause nor one simple solution. Parents sometimes have some responsibility, but not always. I think that our classrooms are reflecting the current zeitgeist in our country very well. A lot of students think respect is something that they only have to give to certain people, and can you blame them? That's how a lot of the so-called "adults" act in society nowadays. Many students feel neglected. Not just by their parents, but by society in general, by previous teachers, and by their peers, and act out in order to get some kind of attention. Students also face enormous stress with the omnipresence of high-stakes tests and assessments which they may feel incapable of doing well on. Others have been taught from a young age through many mediums that they can't succeed and have come to internalize it; if they can't do well, why even try?

And then, there's the reality that for those of us teaching middle and high school, we get very little time per student. The best we can often hope for is to move the needle, and sometimes even a small amount of progress from a student can be undone if they have a bad experience either at home, in another classroom, with one of their peers, etc. Smaller class sizes would help each student get more attention, but the reality is that issues outside of the classroom need to be addressed as well, and parenting is still only part of the equation. Not to mention, holding parents accountable sounds great, but how do we actually achieve that? Giving students recognition for good performance and behavior (note the distinction between recognition and a "reward") is usually what schools try to do, but for students who aren't doing well, they and their parents often either don't care, or see improvement as impossible.

I think that it would take a change in our entire society and values to truly improve our education system, and while things have changed in the past 5-10 years, it hasn't been for the better.

A very thoughtful response.  I highlighted the points I view the most relevant.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I have quite a lot of experience with special ed (especially at the high school level) as both a student and (more recently, of course) an instructional assistant. AdamT's understanding of what it's like to study and/or work in this kind of setting has a strong family resemblance to the bold, pioneering, groundbreaking pedagogical work of Autism Warrior Mommies and edgelord British playwrights.

[OSR stands with Israel]

It's the parents fault, nearly every time. The parents should make it clear to their children that disruptive behavior is not acceptable.

So just exactly why is it the parents' fault?  How, exactly, are they creating this problem?

(I'm not saying it's NOT the parents' fault; it is certainly their fault in part, but the "how" and "why" of this is quite relevant.)

Many parents these days seem not to be teaching their children how to be polite to others, or how to act in public. And they tolerate disrespect from their children within their households. I would venture to say that parental influence is probably the overriding factor (along with the influence of one's environment and peers), on how children develop.

My mom is a TA in a school(and the school she works at is pretty affluent)  and she says she says she says while for some its the parents fault many times it isnt.


In the case for Oregon the video pinpoints one of the problem at a law change made a few years ago which has been interpreted as touching a child in anyway besides self defense can be considered abuse(even if you are lightly grabbing them by the hand to stop them from running or other things).

[AtorBoltox]

Children pay attention to how their elders behave. 'Discipline levels' among fully grown adults is also low. If it's acceptable for politicians and supreme court nominees to try get their way by throwing temper tantrums why not for students?

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

I'm 62 years old.  I have two (2) grown sons, just under 40, and a 13 year old son, so I've got cross-generational experience on this topic, however unintentional.

When I was a kid, my parents worried about the kids I was hanging out with.  When my older sons were kids, I worried about the crowd they were falling in with.  But with my younger son, I not only worry about the kids he hangs out with; I have to also worry about the parents.

Are the kids friends PARENTS doing drugs?  Are the kids PARENTS engaged in illegal stuff? 

When my son was 6 years old, he had a friend from school across the street.  I wondered about things when the kid charged him a dollar to play in his room.  In quick succession, I discovered that (A) Mom was a pole dancer who was busted for drugs, (B) Dad was a drunk with a history of violent arrests, (C) Mom's boyfriend had a felony criminal record, (D) Grandpa came from jail to live with the family, and (E) they all had substance abuse problems.  There was a day where my wife and my young son were packing up the car and the kid's Grandpa was on the phone trying to cop some weed.

You also have to worry about what sort of drama will happen over other kids' houses.  Not all divorces and breakups are amicable, and lots of adults aren't shy about making scenes with kids present.

These dysfunctional scenarios are the source of much of the emotional baggage lots of kids carry to school.  That's not every kid, but there are more of these kids than ever before, and the behavior of these kids in school affects the behavior of kids who come from more functional homes.

We stopped teaching absolute morality in schools decades ago; kids are now often subjected to exercises in moral dilemmas and values clarification.  The motivation for bringing these sort of approaches were noble, but they were based on the assumption that kids in schools were well-behaved and would continue to be well-behaved.  In retrospect, these changes were awful, because they took the good behavior of schoolchildren for granted.  I can already hear Joan Jett singing "You don't know what you got 'til it's gone."

[afleitch]

Hasn't every generation said this for over a hundred years now?

[Continential]

I think the reason why my school district isn't as bad is because the Taxes are really high and that makes the quote on quote "Bad Character People" out as the taxes are high.

[Badger]

Hasn't every generation said this for over a hundred years now?

For literally thousands of years, actually, as Socrates himself proved.

Still, every generation has new challenges and thus new Temptations to avoid.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Hasn't every generation said this for over a hundred years now?

The things shown in that video never happened 10-12 years ago and I literally went to a school in the same metro area.


My mom knows people who are teachers as well and they all say things are worse now then they were just 5-10 years ago

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

Hasn't every generation said this for over a hundred years now?

They have, yes, but children were more well-behaved in the post-WWII era than at any time previous in society, all things considered.

[Badger]

Hasn't every generation said this for over a hundred years now?

They have, yes, but children were more well-behaved in the post-WWII era than at any time previous in society, all things considered.

Interesting analysis. I'm not sure of my opinion on it one way or the other. Willing to elaborate?

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

Hasn't every generation said this for over a hundred years now?

They have, yes, but children were more well-behaved in the post-WWII era than at any time previous in society, all things considered.

Interesting analysis. I'm not sure of my opinion on it one way or the other. Willing to elaborate?

This idea was mentioned in the book, Why Johnny Can't Tell Right From Wrong, by William Kilpatrick.  The book was written in the early 1990s and is mildly dated, but it does talk about the process by which schools abandoned the concept of "character education" as part of a "moral upbringing" in favor of humanistic approaches that substituted concepts such as Values Clarification and Self-Actualization in place of traditional moral education which involved instruction in virtue.  It involved the introduction of teaching Moral Dilemmas into the classroom.  Instead of teaching kids "Thou shalt not steal!", there would be discussions of dilemmas, such as "Is it OK to steal to get medicine for your dying wife if you can't afford it?". 

Such a discussion is the type of discussion that may well have its place in learning how to think, but it's a dangerous discussion when the people discussing it aren't convinced with the absolute wrongness of stealing, lying, killing, or coveting what it not theirs.  At the time these discussions were first undertaken in schools, American children were, indeed, well-behaved in school.  The reason for that is that the Eisenhower era and the JFK era were a time in America when children did, indeed, have moral upbringings, and the moral upbringings were coupled with stability and relative affluence in our society.  Kilpatrick argues that we threw out character education and the concept of a moral upbringing at the time and believed it safe to do so because we took the relatively good behavior of our schoolchildren for granted. 

I believe that Kilpatrick's reasoning has proven itself over time.  Education has become all about self-actualization and the idea of a school being an instrument of socializing a person into citizenship into a greater community whole is out the window.  Children are not trained to consider themselves as part of a greater whole nowadays, and that is not a good thing. 

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Surely that book isn't just "a bit dated", as much as its whole premise was shown up to be junk - just like most similar early 90s stories about the terrible moral collapse of society because of the poor parenting styles of the baby boomers - when the actual 90s and 00's rolled around, which showed rates of drug use/teen pregnancy/delinquency etc all collapsing? As well as all the much vaunted attempts to save education (as a consequence of this scare) via "Zero Tolerance" and uniforms etc having jack all impact in the grand scheme of things.

In general the hypothesis doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. You'd think if there was a profound and noticeable decline in discipline bit would have a more ... substantial and societal cause than introducing ethical discussions in philosophy lessons (and seriously, I've worked in primary schools - children aren't being told it's ok to steal? If that sort of discussion is brought up it would be for older students who have hopefully grasped some sort of moral framework for their views already).

[Figueira]

This problem is very much real, though I can't personally speak for how it's changed over time.

[Continential]

I think the reason why my school district isn't as bad is because the Taxes are really high and that makes the quote on quote "Bad Character People" out as the taxes are high.

The Hawaii Department of Education is the best school district in Hawaii, mainly because it is the only school district in Hawaii. Besides, what do high taxes have to do with it?

I am not from Haiwaii, I'm from Pennsylvania

[darklordoftech]

Hasn't every generation said this for over a hundred years now?

[Ebsy]

Surely that book isn't just "a bit dated", as much as its whole premise was shown up to be junk - just like most similar early 90s stories about the terrible moral collapse of society because of the poor parenting styles of the baby boomers - when the actual 90s and 00's rolled around, which showed rates of drug use/teen pregnancy/delinquency etc all collapsing? As well as all the much vaunted attempts to save education (as a consequence of this scare) via "Zero Tolerance" and uniforms etc having jack all impact in the grand scheme of things.

In general the hypothesis doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. You'd think if there was a profound and noticeable decline in discipline bit would have a more ... substantial and societal cause than introducing ethical discussions in philosophy lessons (and seriously, I've worked in primary schools - children aren't being told it's ok to steal? If that sort of discussion is brought up it would be for older students who have hopefully grasped some sort of moral framework for their views already).

As usual, an excellent post.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Hasn't every generation said this for over a hundred years now?

Watch video one first because things are different.


I went to that school district and things were no where near as bad as they are now , and my mom has friends who have been teachers for a long time who say the same thing 

[darklordoftech]

Surely that book isn't just "a bit dated", as much as its whole premise was shown up to be junk - just like most similar early 90s stories about the terrible moral collapse of society because of the poor parenting styles of the baby boomers - when the actual 90s and 00's rolled around, which showed rates of drug use/teen pregnancy/delinquency etc all collapsing? As well as all the much vaunted attempts to save education (as a consequence of this scare) via "Zero Tolerance" and uniforms etc having jack all impact in the grand scheme of things.

In general the hypothesis doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. You'd think if there was a profound and noticeable decline in discipline bit would have a more ... substantial and societal cause than introducing ethical discussions in philosophy lessons (and seriously, I've worked in primary schools - children aren't being told it's ok to steal? If that sort of discussion is brought up it would be for older students who have hopefully grasped some sort of moral framework for their views already).

The real answer is that lead caused a crime wave from the 1960s to the 1990s.