Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021
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Author Topic: Spanish elections and politics II: Catalan elections on February 14, 2021  (Read 195169 times)
Former President tack50
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« Reply #1700 on: August 10, 2020, 05:55:16 AM »

Regarding where King Juan Carlos is located now I will say that tons of possible destinations have been rumoured. Indeed, Portugal is one of them. However, the Dominican Republic and Abu Dhabi have also been discussed as destinations for him.
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Velasco
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« Reply #1701 on: August 10, 2020, 07:50:12 AM »

The stories about are becoming very silly and this whole secrecy is becoming stupid. There's no reason, right now, for not announcing where he is and Juan Carlos could easily give a written, or even a in person, statement describing his reasons to do this and that he will return to Spain several times in the future. Prolonging isn't going to help.

I agree, but it's not clear that Juan Carlos is going to return unless he's requested to appear in court. Keep in mind that apparently Juan Carlos was persuaded to leave Spain, because members of the royal household found this arrangement the least bad in order to try to save the institution. I don't think Juan Carlos accepts his 'sacrifice' willingly, it's just that he's been 'persuaded' in a similar manner he had to apologize grudgingly for his hunting incident in Botswana. It's not easy for a person that has been sanctified in life -thus allowed to do whatever he pleased, protected by the country's elite- to accept his current situation. Personally I would have preferred that the aged Juan Carlos was just allowed to retire in Sanxenxo, but apparently that's not in the best interest of the monarchy

Regarding the mythicizing of the Hero of the Transition, I think it's interesting this interview with the historian Julian Casanova in La Voz de Galicia. Personally I consider he puts the things right. Juan Carlos was not the man sent by the providence to guide us towards democracy, but a man who played a very important role as the head of the state designated by Franco. He made correct and transcendental decisions, such as appearing on television dressed in full uniform by February 1981. Quite possibly he had the history of his family in mind, as well as the precedent of his brother-in-law Costantine of Greece (who sided with the Greek junta and later had to leave his country). Maybe the root of his late problems and bad decisions is the aura of sanctity his supporters bestowed upon him

https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/espana/2020/08/08/julian-casanova-juan-carlos-i-dio-aureola-santidad-sacralizacion-permitia-/00031596875297517553495.htm
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1702 on: August 10, 2020, 09:37:38 AM »


Oh, there must be little doubt there.

Being quasi-sanctified as "the man who saved democracy" would likely go to most people's heads tbf.
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Mike88
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« Reply #1703 on: August 10, 2020, 09:41:27 AM »

Regarding the mythicizing of the Hero of the Transition, I think it's interesting this interview with the historian Julian Casanova in La Voz de Galicia. Personally I consider he puts the things right. Juan Carlos was not the man sent by the providence to guide us towards democracy, but a man who played a very important role as the head of the state designated by Franco. He made correct and transcendental decisions, such as appearing on television dressed in full uniform by February 1981. Quite possibly he had the history of his family in mind, as well as the precedent of his brother-in-law Costantine of Greece (who sided with the Greek junta and later had to leave his country). Maybe the root of his late problems and bad decisions is the aura of sanctity his supporters bestowed upon him

https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/espana/2020/08/08/julian-casanova-juan-carlos-i-dio-aureola-santidad-sacralizacion-permitia-/00031596875297517553495.htm

The article is quite neutral and it gives a good assessment of Juan Carlos. He did in fact good things for Spain but that doesn't meant he was a"saint", no one is. There's many examples across history of good leaders that by the end did many mistakes as they thought they were untouchable.
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #1704 on: August 10, 2020, 10:36:09 AM »

When France sends its royalty, they are not sending their best. They are not sending you. They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #1705 on: August 10, 2020, 10:54:43 AM »

When France sends its royalty, they are not sending their best. They are not sending you. They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

Thanks, now I know what to say in case I meet a neo-Bourbonist.

(neo-Bourbonists = a small group of crazy revisionist junkies nostalgic for the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies)
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Velasco
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« Reply #1706 on: August 10, 2020, 12:28:23 PM »

The article is quite neutral and it gives a good assessment of Juan Carlos. He did in fact good , actually for Spain but that doesn't meant he was a"saint", no one is. There's many examples across history of good leaders that by the end did many mistakes as they thought they were untouchable.

There's a difference between neutrality and objectivity. Nobody is neutral, actually. Anyway we have been taught in this country that Juan Carlos was a person of great virtues and vision, a providential man who guided his country through the transition. Any deviation from that narrative may be deemed heretic by certain people. The fact is that he wasn't alone in that journey, as Casanova remarks, but accompanied by a certain Francoist elite willing to transition and opposition leaders unwilling a violent confrontation. Juan Carlos was neither a saint nor a genius, but he made some correct decisions in the past that were good for democracy in this country.


Thanks, now I know what to say in case I meet a neo-Bourbonist.

(neo-Bourbonists = a small group of crazy revisionist junkies nostalgic for the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies)

FTR the full name of the emeritus king is Juan Carlos Alfonso Víctor María de Borbón y Borbón-Dos Sicilias
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BigSerg
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« Reply #1707 on: August 11, 2020, 07:57:14 AM »

Podemos collapses and senior officials are charged in an investigation

https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-juez-imputa-estrecho-colaborador-pablo-iglesias-y-tesorero-podemos-financiacion-partido-202008111113_noticia_amp.html?__twitter_impression=true
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #1708 on: August 11, 2020, 08:06:57 AM »

For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #1709 on: August 11, 2020, 08:18:30 AM »

For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.
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Mike88
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« Reply #1710 on: August 11, 2020, 09:15:50 AM »
« Edited: August 11, 2020, 09:27:45 AM by Mike88 »

For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.

Or a more simpler summary is that Podemos is just another member of the "caste", alongside PP, PSOE and others.
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #1711 on: August 11, 2020, 09:46:17 AM »

For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.

Or a more simpler summary is that Podemos is just another member of the "caste", alongside PP, PSOE and others.

Wow, I didn't know that we had exported the term "caste" in that sense.
The phrase "X is just another member of the caste alongside Y and Z" sounds just SO Italian.
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Velasco
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« Reply #1712 on: August 11, 2020, 09:53:13 AM »

For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.

Or a more simpler summary is that Podemos is just another member of the "caste", alongside PP, PSOE and others.

"La Casta" was a popular expression reflective of a particular moment of anger, but it' s a bit outdated now. "Juancarlistas" are a bit old-fashioned, too. I never bought the simplistic vision, but I think that slogan had a raison d'être. It served the purpose of catalyzing a desire for change and as a revulsive against the conformist political elites, in a moment of terrible economic crisis and poverty of expectations (especially for young people). The Podemos momentum passed away and nowadays Pablo Iglesias has become a member of the establishment, something like an Euro-communist
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BigSerg
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« Reply #1713 on: August 11, 2020, 10:20:39 AM »
« Edited: August 11, 2020, 10:24:35 AM by 7sergi9 »

For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.

Or a more simpler summary is that Podemos is just another member of the "caste", alongside PP, PSOE and others.

The investigation is horrific, it is an almost unique case in Spain. Specific people are not being charged. The whole political party is being charged.

It should be noted that in the history of Spain, only the PP has been condemned as a political party.
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Velasco
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« Reply #1714 on: August 11, 2020, 10:23:31 AM »
« Edited: August 11, 2020, 10:29:12 AM by Velasco »

For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.

Wait. I think there is a difference between "imputar" ("investigate") and "acusar" ("charge"). Judicial inquiry may end in formal charges or not, it depends on the conclusions. Even in the case inquiry leads to formal accusation, I doubt the alleged wrongdoings would be comparable to the colossal corruption scheme known as the "Gürtel case", that ultimately caused the fall of Mariano Rajoy. I'll wait a little to give an opinion, because I haven't paid too much attention and there's too much media noise

By the moment I can tell the inquiry is motivated by the accusations made by a lawyer who was employed by Podemos and sacked on alleged sexaul harassment. I know this particular lawyer has made his accusations against Podemos in some media (for instance, El Mundo), but as I said before I haven't paid attention until now.
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BigSerg
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« Reply #1715 on: August 11, 2020, 10:26:48 AM »
« Edited: August 11, 2020, 10:30:04 AM by 7sergi9 »

For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.

Wait. I think there is a difference between "imputar" ("investigate") and "acusar" ("charge"). Judicial inquiry may end in formal charges or not, it depends on the conclusions. Even in the case inquiry leads to formal accusation, I doubt the alleged wrongdoings would be comparable to the colossal corruption scheme known as the "Gürtel case", that ultimately caused the fall of Mariano Rajoy. I'll wait a little to give an opinion, because I haven't paid too much attention and there's too much media noise
It's exactly the same as the case Gürtel, the whole party is being investigated not just a few people.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.europapress.es/nacional/noticia-juez-imputa-tambien-podemos-persona-juridica-causa-financiacion-partido-20200811153314.html

"Juridical person"
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Velasco
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« Reply #1716 on: August 11, 2020, 10:40:47 AM »

No. Court proceedings have a timing. The Gürtel case" is already over and this one of Podemos is only in a phase pf judicial inquiry. On the other hand, the magnitude of the Gürtel scheme is so enormous, that comparisons seem disproportionate or disingenuous. In case there are proven wrongdoings, there will be a verdict and a sentence
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Mike88
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« Reply #1717 on: August 11, 2020, 11:14:52 AM »

For those of us who can't read Spanish, a summary?

Well, that is actually an exaggeration, especially the "Podemos collapses" lol

Anyways, the summary is that the Treasurer and the Campaign Managers from Podemos have been charged with illegally financing the party

This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gürtel case from PP a while back, where the PP tresurer was also accused of illegally financing the party as well. (or if you really care to go back that far, the Filesa case where PSOE was also accused of illegal financing in the late 80s)

In any case, they've just been charged. Now it will take a long while until those charges are actually confirmed or dropped. And if confirmed it will take years until the trial finally ends. So we are here for a long while.

Or a more simpler summary is that Podemos is just another member of the "caste", alongside PP, PSOE and others.

"La Casta" was a popular expression reflective of a particular moment of anger, but it' s a bit outdated now. "Juancarlistas" are a bit old-fashioned, too. I never bought the simplistic vision, but I think that slogan had a raison d'être. It served the purpose of catalyzing a desire for change and as a revulsive against the conformist political elites, in a moment of terrible economic crisis and poverty of expectations (especially for young people). The Podemos momentum passed away and nowadays Pablo Iglesias has become a member of the establishment, something like an Euro-communist

Yes, I know it's a bit outdated, from 2014/15. I wrote it because it was a trademark of Podemos, alongside the "tick tock" one, and it played over and over around here.
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #1718 on: August 11, 2020, 11:43:14 AM »



Wow, I didn't know that we had exported the term "caste" in that sense.
The phrase "X is just another member of the caste alongside Y and Z" sounds just SO Italian.

Worth noting that, during their early and meteoric rise (2014-2015), many Spanish political commentators noted the similarities between the Italian M5S and the Spanish Podemos. The early Podemos essencially called the old parties "the caste", claimed to be "neither left nor right; but the people vs those in power" and was very populist

Of course, unlike M5S, eventually Podemos moved into a more generic left wing populist party, but those similarities were there.

(the other main comparison of Podemos at the time was with the Greek Syriza I think)
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« Reply #1719 on: August 11, 2020, 12:12:44 PM »

Podemos 2017 🤡🤡

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Velasco
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« Reply #1720 on: August 11, 2020, 12:15:34 PM »
« Edited: August 11, 2020, 12:39:48 PM by Velasco »



Wow, I didn't know that we had exported the term "caste" in that sense.
The phrase "X is just another member of the caste alongside Y and Z" sounds just SO Italian.

Worth noting that, during their early and meteoric rise (2014-2015), many Spanish political commentators noted the similarities between the Italian M5S and the Spanish Podemos. The early Podemos essencially called the old parties "the caste", claimed to be "neither left nor right; but the people vs those in power" and was very populist

Of course, unlike M5S, eventually Podemos moved into a more generic left wing populist party, but those similarities were there.

(the other main comparison of Podemos at the time was with the Greek Syriza I think)

Never forget that Podemos was founded by political scientists. You may like or dislike them (I have mixed feelings), but it's undeniable Iglesias, Errejon, Monedero and the others are intelectually more brilliant than the average politicians in this country. They launched Podemos in the right moment and with a clear purpose, and they were astoundingly successful provoking a panic attack to the elites labelled "La Casta". The similitudes between M5S and Podemos are only superficial. The Grillini are anti-political in nature, a pure protest party. The initial Podemos was highly influenced by sophisticated political theories (Ernesto Laclau's theory of populism) and the main advocate of this path was Errejon. They said they were "neither left nor right" to appeal a broader audience, but Podemos was always left-wing and hyper-political. Later there were differences between Iglesias and Errejon (partly strategic and political, party personal). With the defeat of Errejon at Vistalegre II (early 2017), Podemos abandoned the left-wing populist path to become a somewhat more orthodox leftwing organization.

 Anyway the present organizational weakness is one of the main causes of the bad results of Podemos at local and regional level. I don't know if organizational disfunctions are related to that recent inquiry
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #1721 on: August 11, 2020, 12:43:22 PM »


Wow, I didn't know that we had exported the term "caste" in that sense.
The phrase "X is just another member of the caste alongside Y and Z" sounds just SO Italian.

Worth noting that, during their early and meteoric rise (2014-2015), many Spanish political commentators noted the similarities between the Italian M5S and the Spanish Podemos. The early Podemos essencially called the old parties "the caste", claimed to be "neither left nor right; but the people vs those in power" and was very populist

Of course, unlike M5S, eventually Podemos moved into a more generic left wing populist party, but those similarities were there.

(the other main comparison of Podemos at the time was with the Greek Syriza I think)

A party started by a comedian and a party started by political scientists are... pretty different.
Anyway, M5S has become part of the caste, too.
M5S is also most noted in Italy for their absurdly strict internal rules.
In the previous legislature, M5S lost 21 Deputies out of 109 and 19 Senators out of 54 in five years.
In the current legislature, they have lost 22 Deputies out of 222 and 14 Senators out of 109 in slightly more than two years.
I don't know if there is anything similar in Podemos.
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« Reply #1722 on: August 11, 2020, 01:03:40 PM »

They said they were "neither left nor right" to appeal a broader audience, but Podemos was always left-wing and hyper-political.

To put things from a different perspective, back when Podemos was experiencing their meteoric rise, in Venezuela they were immediately linked to chavismo (the ties existed, after all), talking about "chavistas in Spain" was all the rage in pro-opposition circles back then, and among them, many watched the results to the 2015 election nervously.

In other words, in Venezuela, they were seen as far leftists there from the get-go.
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« Reply #1723 on: August 11, 2020, 01:36:28 PM »

They said they were "neither left nor right" to appeal a broader audience, but Podemos was always left-wing and hyper-political.

To put things from a different perspective, back when Podemos was experiencing their meteoric rise, in Venezuela they were immediately linked to chavismo (the ties existed, after all), talking about "chavistas in Spain" was all the rage in pro-opposition circles back then, and among them, many watched the results to the 2015 election nervously.

In other words, in Venezuela, they were seen as far leftists there from the get-go.

I know. Some ties existed and the Podemos founders were sympathizers sometime (and maybe some of them still are). I think they never denied that. There were allegations on Venezuelan funding as well that have never been proven, but made a lot of noise in media. On the alleged chavismo, Iglesias and Errejon have stated the path is following Venezuela is undesirable for Spain. They are smart enough to realize that's a trainwreck and I doubt that embracing chavismo is compatible with electoral success in Spain. A total abjuration would have not been credible (Carmena has labelled Maduro a dictator, Errejon can't do that)  On the alleged and unproven financing, well... I said before they provoked a panic attack. As for their ideological background, it was always clear they came from the left and even from the far-left.

With regard to M5S, it's obvious the Podemos founders noticed their communication tactics and quite possibly adapted some of them ("La Casta!")
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« Reply #1724 on: August 12, 2020, 08:26:47 AM »

How the fate of Juan Carlos was decided (it's the English version of an article I linked before, worth reading)

https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-08-12/how-the-fate-of-spains-juan-carlos-i-was-decided.html

Quote
It’s Friday, July 31 and Spain’s regional leaders are gathering in San Millán de la Cogolla in La Rioja for the first face-to-face meeting with Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez in 14 weeks – during the coronavirus lockdown, the weekly discussions had been held via video link.

Sánchez wants to put forward an image of cohesion and unity in the face of an economic crisis of historic proportions, and a growing number Covid-19 outbreaks that are threatening to unleash a second wave of the pandemic. Even Basque leader Iñigo Urkullu – originally reticent to attend – is at the event, making Catalan premier Quim Torra the only absentee.

King Felipe VI, having just finished his tour of Spain’s 17 regions with a visit to Asturias the day before, is on hand to inaugurate the conference. The program has been worked out in meticulous detail, but at the last minute everything changes to accommodate a private meeting between the king and Sánchez. No one knows what it is about (...)  

Twitter storm triggered by a comment of Pablo Iglesias on Plot Against America, a series directed by David Simon (the creator of the legendary 'The Wire')

https://english.elpais.com/verne/2020-08-12/the-weekend-that-the-creator-of-the-wire-spent-arguing-with-twitter-users-about-spain.html

Quote
 Pablo Iglesias, the leader of anti-austerity political party Unidas Podemos and one of Spain’s four deputy prime ministers, enjoys a good TV show. A few years ago, he gave a box set of the HBO hit Game of Thrones to King Felipe VI, and has used his Twitter account to rave about the French series Baron Noir, Italian drama Gomorrah and US classic The Wire. Last Friday, Iglesias took to his Twitter account again to recommend another series by The Wire creator, David Simon, called The Plot Against America.

“I just finished watching The Plot Against America. David Simon and Ed Burns never disappoint but the moment in which the series has come out gives it special meaning. Sometimes, the success of fascism seems inconceivable to us, and yet sympathizers are always close.”

(...)

The Twitter storm began on Saturday, when Simon discovered that he had been mentioned in hundreds of messages thanks to Iglesias’s tweet recommending The Plot Against America. Retweeting Iglesias’s message, Simon wrote: “So, if my poor Spanish holds, this fellow liked the bent of a miniseries and tagged me. And so now into a second day, my Twitter feed is full of Francoists and Catalunyans screaming at each other in languages not my own. Well okay. It’s 1937 again.  the fascists. No pasaran [sic]” – a reference to the anti-fascist slogan “They shall not pass.”

But this was not the only message The Wire creator shared; he subsequently spent most of Saturday and a good part of Sunday arguing with Twitter users about fascism. He insulted Franco and the Francoists and criticized the United States for having supported dictators during the Cold War. The matter of Catalan independence was also brought up with Simon saying that a referendum, where leaders are “willing to count votes,” was preferable to the coup of July 1936 (...)

Simon said there's a script for a drama series following the international Brigades during the Spanish Civil War and said calling "fellow" to Iglesias didn't mean anything, claiming that he's not a "commie" but a "socie". He said something about the "fascie madre" of some troll and discussed about Catalan independence with another user...

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