Crisis in Venezuela

[OSR stands with Israel]

U.S. Coups™: Overthrowing Latin American Governments since 1823

Except Maduro is no longer a democratically-elected leader, so even if it was a coup (which it is clearly not, especially with the military still backing Maduro), it would be different.

1,500 international observers would disagree with you.

Maduro is the legitimate leader of Venezuela. This coup attempt by an international, Right-wing, imperialistic alliance is inexcusable; they have no power to recognize an unelected, illegitimate leader of another country. Is Maduro corrupt? Hell yes. He’s also a frequent violator of numerous human and civil rights. No question about that. But, he’s far, far from being among the world’s worst, and yet America, Canada, etc... are perfectly fine not only tolerating, but partnering with considerably worse states, such as Saudi Arabia. The reason behind all of this is obvious: oil. Venezuela has the world’s largest proven oil reserves, yet they aren’t particularly friendly with the world’s imperialistic powers (headed by the US).

Thankfully, Venezuela’s armed forces have already expressed their alliance with Maduro’s legitimate government.

It’s funny how everyone on this forum loses their collective sh** over simply alleged Russian meddling in American elections, scream about the Fascism of Trump and Bolsonaro, then at the same time champion American-Brazilian partnership in an attempted coup. You’re all just massive bootlickers.

This post is so absurd that it reminds me of something TNF would say back in the day

[Former President tack50]

Just what I needed, an scarlet-avatar user telling me I should be thankful that the military supports the nefarious regime that is the reason I left my country. Thrilling.

I mean, you could argue that Maduro is somehow preferrable to a war in the same way that some believe Saddam or Gadaffi should have been left alone. Then again a war is an extremely unlikely scenario and even if it happened it wouldn't end up like Irak or Lybia.

Of course the ideal scenario is that the army takes control and ousts Maduro. (or that he steps down willingly but that's not going to happen)

Does he have much popular support? Because otherwise the army is the last thing standing before he ends up like Ceaucescu.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem Guiado's proclamation will amount to anything.

[Skye]

Just what I needed, an scarlet-avatar user telling me I should be thankful that the military supports the nefarious regime that is the reason I left my country. Thrilling.

I mean, you could argue that Maduro is somehow preferrable to a war in the same way that some believe Saddam or Gadaffi should have been left alone. Then again a war is an extremely unlikely scenario and even if it happened it wouldn't end up like Irak or Lybia.

Of course the ideal scenario is that the army takes control and ousts Maduro. (or that he steps down willingly but that's not going to happen)

Does he have much popular support? Because otherwise the army is the last thing standing before he ends up like Ceaucescu.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem Guiado's proclamation will amount to anything.

I do believe that a war would be absolutely terrible, and hopefully, it won't go to that. And what the opposition is betting on, is that the military kicks Maduro out thanks to international pressure and a real transition begins.

Maduro is by all measures unpopular. Polls in Venezuela are scarce and don't have that good of a reputation, but the last polls I remember had his approvals around the 20's. The military is almost entirely the reason he's still standing. I do hope he leaves without further confrontation.

[Devout Centrist]

Just what I needed, an scarlet-avatar user telling me I should be thankful that the military supports the nefarious regime that is the reason I left my country. Thrilling.

I mean, you could argue that Maduro is somehow preferrable to a war in the same way that some believe Saddam or Gadaffi should have been left alone. Then again a war is an extremely unlikely scenario and even if it happened it wouldn't end up like Irak or Lybia.

Of course the ideal scenario is that the army takes control and ousts Maduro. (or that he steps down willingly but that's not going to happen)

Does he have much popular support? Because otherwise the army is the last thing standing before he ends up like Ceaucescu.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem Guiado's proclamation will amount to anything.

I do believe that a war would be absolutely terrible, and hopefully, it won't go to that. And what the opposition is betting on, is that the military kicks Maduro out thanks to international pressure and a real transition begins.

I don't think this is a very likely outcome. The military seems to staunchly support Maduro

[Santander]

The Trump administration has offered an "exit arrangement" for Maduro.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Hmm. Wonder why we oppose Maduro but support countless dictatorships around the world...

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

i'm not against this but there are far worse dictators around the world who have full american support. sadly us foreign policy continues to be very hypocritical.

Most dictators don't ruin their country to the point that millions of people have to leave just to survive.

[Arturo Belano]

Betting on a military coup to take out Maduro is very unlikely, considering their deep drug trafficking activities and their historical role as a key part of the Chavista coalition. For them, the status quo is their best bet on retaining power.

I believe it's going to take brave actors on both sides to find some sort of common ground and bring Venezuela into a process of national dialogue and compromise. I don't think that backing Maduro's government further into a corner is going to convince elements of the government to consider the first steps towards rapprochement with the opposition. If anything, it's going to make them even more hostile towards any reconciliation. I believe civil war is becoming increasingly likely with the current trajectory of events in Venezuela and US foreign policy is fanning the flames.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Ro Khanna just tweeted this and according to Glenn Greenwald AOC retweeted it

https://twitter.com/RoKhanna/status/1088302692001300480?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7...

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1088462367921504256?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle...


The entire TYT caucus is a joke

[Skye]

Those Venezuelans who found out are not happy.

I saw it coming, but I had truly hoped she wouldn't take that stance. Sad. I'll no longer give her the benefit of doubt.

[JGibson]

I'd also like to chime in and say that this leftist also supports this. Sometimes people do the right things for the wrong reasons. Maduro is not a legitimate leader and giving nominal support to the opposition is totally within the acceptable range of US policy responses to the current situation. Hopefully Trump and the people around him know better than to do anything too rash.

I'd also like to note that I'm disappointed in AMLO, although I suppose I shouldn't have expected anything different. It will be interesting to see if his position evolves as the situation on the ground does.

Agreed here, as this lefty DESPISES Maduro just as much as Bolsonaro and Trump. Hopefully Guaidó will steer Venezuela into a better direction.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

U.S. Coups™: Overthrowing Latin American Governments since 1823

Except Maduro is no longer a democratically-elected leader, so even if it was a coup (which it is clearly not, especially with the military still backing Maduro), it would be different.

1,500 international observers would disagree with you.

Maduro is the legitimate leader of Venezuela. This coup attempt by an international, Right-wing, imperialistic alliance is inexcusable; they have no power to recognize an unelected, illegitimate leader of another country. Is Maduro corrupt? Hell yes. He’s also a frequent violator of numerous human and civil rights. No question about that. But, he’s far, far from being among the world’s worst, and yet America, Canada, etc... are perfectly fine not only tolerating, but partnering with considerably worse states, such as Saudi Arabia. The reason behind all of this is obvious: oil. Venezuela has the world’s largest proven oil reserves, yet they aren’t particularly friendly with the world’s imperialistic powers (headed by the US).

Thankfully, Venezuela’s armed forces have already expressed their alliance with Maduro’s legitimate government.

It’s funny how everyone on this forum loses their collective sh** over simply alleged Russian meddling in American elections, scream about the Fascism of Trump and Bolsonaro, then at the same time champion American-Brazilian partnership in an attempted coup.

Trump is awful. Bolsonaro is awful. Maduro is awful.

Pretty simple and not contradictory.

[Hnv1]

Good, time to oust the socialists

[JA]

U.S. Coups™: Overthrowing Latin American Governments since 1823

Except Maduro is no longer a democratically-elected leader, so even if it was a coup (which it is clearly not, especially with the military still backing Maduro), it would be different.

1,500 international observers would disagree with you.

Maduro is the legitimate leader of Venezuela. This coup attempt by an international, Right-wing, imperialistic alliance is inexcusable; they have no power to recognize an unelected, illegitimate leader of another country. Is Maduro corrupt? Hell yes. He’s also a frequent violator of numerous human and civil rights. No question about that. But, he’s far, far from being among the world’s worst, and yet America, Canada, etc... are perfectly fine not only tolerating, but partnering with considerably worse states, such as Saudi Arabia. The reason behind all of this is obvious: oil. Venezuela has the world’s largest proven oil reserves, yet they aren’t particularly friendly with the world’s imperialistic powers (headed by the US).

Thankfully, Venezuela’s armed forces have already expressed their alliance with Maduro’s legitimate government.

It’s funny how everyone on this forum loses their collective sh** over simply alleged Russian meddling in American elections, scream about the Fascism of Trump and Bolsonaro, then at the same time champion American-Brazilian partnership in an attempted coup. You’re all just massive bootlickers.

This post is so absurd that it reminds me of something TNF would say back in the day

Prove that all of what I said was wrong.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I miss TNF.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Good, time to oust the socialists

Fun fact: Guaidó belongs to a member party of the Socialist International.

[Skye]

Good, time to oust the socialists

Fun fact: Guaidó belongs to a member party of the Socialist International.

Yes. A common misconception is that the Venezuelan opposition is right wing. They certainly are to the right of chavismo but that's about it. The opposition in Venezuela has more in common with the US leftists than many realize. AD, which was for a while the largest party in the country, is a social democrat party. VP, which is the party that Guaidó belongs to, is a center left party (though their ideology, as with many Venezuelan parties, is a bit murky since people here value more how they oppose chavismo rather than their actual ideological stances). VP certainly is socially liberal.

[OSR stands with Israel]

U.S. Coups™: Overthrowing Latin American Governments since 1823

Except Maduro is no longer a democratically-elected leader, so even if it was a coup (which it is clearly not, especially with the military still backing Maduro), it would be different.

1,500 international observers would disagree with you.

Maduro is the legitimate leader of Venezuela. This coup attempt by an international, Right-wing, imperialistic alliance is inexcusable; they have no power to recognize an unelected, illegitimate leader of another country. Is Maduro corrupt? Hell yes. He’s also a frequent violator of numerous human and civil rights. No question about that. But, he’s far, far from being among the world’s worst, and yet America, Canada, etc... are perfectly fine not only tolerating, but partnering with considerably worse states, such as Saudi Arabia. The reason behind all of this is obvious: oil. Venezuela has the world’s largest proven oil reserves, yet they aren’t particularly friendly with the world’s imperialistic powers (headed by the US).

Thankfully, Venezuela’s armed forces have already expressed their alliance with Maduro’s legitimate government.

It’s funny how everyone on this forum loses their collective sh** over simply alleged Russian meddling in American elections, scream about the Fascism of Trump and Bolsonaro, then at the same time champion American-Brazilian partnership in an attempted coup. You’re all just massive bootlickers.

This post is so absurd that it reminds me of something TNF would say back in the day

Prove that all of what I said was wrong.

Maduro is not legitimate in any way . The election was clearly rigged so the fact is that the results are invalid and Guaido is the interim president until new elections can be held

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Capriles was also a soft left-of-center-ist right?

[Skye]

Capriles was also a soft left-of-center-ist right?

Correct. Capriles belongs to a Primero Justicia, a "centrist" party without a clearly defined ideology. Some might argue that PJ is a centre-right party since some of its members are conservatives, but Capriles, the face of the party, is a left of the center politician, and one of its most prominent Congressmen, Miguel Pizarro, is a leftist who, IIRC, openly admires Salvador Allende. Like I said, ideology doesn't exactly define the Venezuelan opposition parties these days.

[Senator-elect Spark]

Can only support this. Venezuela's de facto government is riddled with corruption and the economy is in shambles plagued by hyperinflation. Right move on Trump's part.

[Big Abraham]

Can only support this. Venezuela's de facto government is riddled with corruption and the economy is in shambles plagued by hyperinflation. Right move on Trump's part.

Which American sanctions are massively contributing to. Hm.

That's not to say there aren't internal problems within Venezuela, and Maduro is certainly no Chávez, but the American state should not have a hand in any attempt to usurp him (which for economic reasons they obviously desire), especially given the unbridled American support for absolute monarchies and other dictatorships which are considerably worse.

[JA]

U.S. Coups™: Overthrowing Latin American Governments since 1823

Except Maduro is no longer a democratically-elected leader, so even if it was a coup (which it is clearly not, especially with the military still backing Maduro), it would be different.

1,500 international observers would disagree with you.

Maduro is the legitimate leader of Venezuela. This coup attempt by an international, Right-wing, imperialistic alliance is inexcusable; they have no power to recognize an unelected, illegitimate leader of another country. Is Maduro corrupt? Hell yes. He’s also a frequent violator of numerous human and civil rights. No question about that. But, he’s far, far from being among the world’s worst, and yet America, Canada, etc... are perfectly fine not only tolerating, but partnering with considerably worse states, such as Saudi Arabia. The reason behind all of this is obvious: oil. Venezuela has the world’s largest proven oil reserves, yet they aren’t particularly friendly with the world’s imperialistic powers (headed by the US).

Thankfully, Venezuela’s armed forces have already expressed their alliance with Maduro’s legitimate government.

It’s funny how everyone on this forum loses their collective sh** over simply alleged Russian meddling in American elections, scream about the Fascism of Trump and Bolsonaro, then at the same time champion American-Brazilian partnership in an attempted coup. You’re all just massive bootlickers.

This post is so absurd that it reminds me of something TNF would say back in the day

Prove that all of what I said was wrong.

Maduro is not legitimate in any way . The election was clearly rigged so the fact is that the results are invalid and Guaido is the interim president until new elections can be held

Here’s the thing, I can either recognize the statements of 1,500 international observers who oversaw and investigated the Venezuelan election of May 2018 or I can go by the word of a random forum commentor and the totally unbiased claims of the US government and its allies. Decisions, decisions...

In addition, I’d love to know why the legitimacy of Venezuela’s president and the crisis of that country (which, in large, but not exclusive, part stems from American sanctions/embargos) is more important than, for example, the crisis of an undemocratically elected President slaughtering protestors in Sudan, the police state forced upon the Uighurs by the unelected Chinese government, or the unparalleled barbarism against its own people and assassination of an American citizen (along with his torture) by an ally of the US, Canada, etc... whose government has absolutely no claims to democratic legitimacy. Could you please tell me why Maduro’s Venezuela is an enemy deserving of such priority and threats of coups, while America remains allied with some of the worst tyrannical regimes and ignores the horrors of countless African and Asian states?

[Cassandra]

If the Venezuelan military backs Maduro, how long before the neocon commentariat starts murmuring about "direct intervention" and such?

[Karpatsky]

As this is not my region of specialty, I won't come down hard on either side here, but having read this thread I must say: pointing out US support for other dictatorships is not an coherent argument for either position. I'm not even sure what people posting this even mean - are they arguing that it is preferable to avoid hypocrisy by supporting all dictatorships, including Maduro's, than to support some but not others, or what?