Crisis in Venezuela
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Karpatsky
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« Reply #275 on: May 01, 2019, 09:44:28 AM »

America has not fought a war that we should have fought for except for maybeeee Afghanistan (and even then not to this crazy extent) since WW2.

I think Korea was justified, although the U.S. shouldn't have gone into the North after repealing Kim Il-sung forces from the South.

Absolutely not, say no to war.

There are outcomes worse than war, man. Living in North Korea is one of them.

Too bad, don't care, we should look out for our own countrypeople and kind, not get them killed by the thousands to try spread some perverted form of corporate "democracy" across the planet.

Oh, so when it's 'our kind' who want to live in peace and freedom, we need to 'look out for them', but when it's brown people or Asians, they're just fighting for 'perverted corporate democracy' and we should support their dictators. I think I see how it is now.

It's not about color, same goes for any country, it's about watching out for our people as Americans who are btw 35-40% non-white including my entire paternal side. 

Spare me the hypocrisy. You aren't arguing against American intervention, you are arguing against the very idea of Venezuela achieving democratic government and in fact are advocating for aid to be sent to their dictator.

Leaving aside that you apparently support intervention to liberate countries as long as those people are French or German, if you truly believe that, the color of someone's passport is no more reasonable a metric to determine who is worthy of a basic ethical consideration.
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Co-Chair Bagel23
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« Reply #276 on: May 01, 2019, 09:48:21 AM »

America has not fought a war that we should have fought for except for maybeeee Afghanistan (and even then not to this crazy extent) since WW2.

I think Korea was justified, although the U.S. shouldn't have gone into the North after repealing Kim Il-sung forces from the South.

Absolutely not, say no to war.

There are outcomes worse than war, man. Living in North Korea is one of them.

Too bad, don't care, we should look out for our own countrypeople and kind, not get them killed by the thousands to try spread some perverted form of corporate "democracy" across the planet.

Oh, so when it's 'our kind' who want to live in peace and freedom, we need to 'look out for them', but when it's brown people or Asians, they're just fighting for 'perverted corporate democracy' and we should support their dictators. I think I see how it is now.

It's not about color, same goes for any country, it's about watching out for our people as Americans who are btw 35-40% non-white including my entire paternal side.  

Spare me the hypocrisy. You aren't arguing against American intervention, you are arguing against the very idea of Venezuela achieving democratic government and in fact are advocating for aid to be sent to their dictator.

Leaving aside that you apparently support intervention to liberate countries as long as those people are French or German, if you truly believe that, the color of someone's passport is no more reasonable a metric to determine who is worthy of a basic ethical consideration.

I support the intervention in WW2 since we were clearly attacked and it was clear that if we did not respond, our interests would be hurt. The whole Venezuela bs is drummed up Bolton neocon propaganda. Choose another line of attack, I am not against my own heritage lol, some left wingers make everything about race when faltering in neocon "logic".
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Karpatsky
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« Reply #277 on: May 01, 2019, 10:17:38 AM »


I support the intervention in WW2 since we were clearly attacked and it was clear that if we did not respond, our interests would be hurt. The whole Venezuela bs is drummed up Bolton neocon propaganda. Choose another line of attack, I am not against my own heritage lol, some left wingers make everything about race when faltering in neocon "logic".

Congratulations I suppose if you base your prejudice on citizenship rather than appearance; in the context I am familiar with the difference is irrelevant. However you choose to frame it, you consider the lives of certain groups of ethically irrelevant or even wish for their lives to be worse. I don't believe you actually believe that reports of what life is like in NK or VZ is 'drummed up propaganda', and the fact that you are stooping so low to defend your position reveals how despicable it is.

If you don't support US intervention in Venezuela, that is well within the range of sane and reasonable policy positions. But you are far off the edge of apologia for autocracy right now. Get a grip.
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Omega21
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« Reply #278 on: May 01, 2019, 10:25:52 AM »

Yeah, I also don't think anyone should support Maduro. I simply hope that he falls as a result of low support, not foreign meddling, which will happen if he continues driving the country even deeper into despair.

I hope a neutral (as much as possible) democratic leader is able to take over, who will not sell the countries resources to Russian or American companies for pennies on the dollar, and not become a puppet of either side.

I know it's unrealistic wishful thinking, but dropping bombs with "democracy" and "freedom" written on them on people's heads is not really a solution.
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PSOL
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« Reply #279 on: May 01, 2019, 11:22:19 AM »

Hi guys. I understand strong opinions for/against a US intervention in the country. That, however doesn't mean you have to support Maduro. Please understand that Venezuela under chavismo isn't a pretty place to live in. Every day, what you take for granted where you live, is a nightmare to obtain properly in Venezuela. Low salaries (It was about $6 a month last time I checked), failing basic services (electricity, running water, gas), food scarcity, insane crime rates, and absurd levels of corruption. Venezuelans deserve to live in a place where everyday routines don't look like battles to be fought and lost. We deserve to live in a place with a bright future, not a post-apocalyptic mess.

Like I said, you can be against a US military intervention (something that hasn't even happened yet), but don't you dare say you support Maduro just to spite the US.
I hope that one day Venezuela will be mostly free of corruption and tyranny, but that is not visible on the horizon. The fact of the matter is that the grouping that constitutes as the face of the opposition just wants to bring the country back to the 90s, and no one evidently wants that, with all the classism and poverty.

The best bet right now is for the Opposition to take the Mexican deal and try to work something out. Put someone that is willing for democracy but won’t privatize for the benefit of foreign powers. Tell me, are there any disillusioned ex-chavismo officials willing to take the reign, like Luisa Marvelia Ortega Díaz?
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Gass3268
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« Reply #280 on: May 01, 2019, 11:33:16 AM »

Maduro no longer trust's Venezuelan troops to guard him.

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Skye
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« Reply #281 on: May 01, 2019, 11:48:34 AM »

Hi guys. I understand strong opinions for/against a US intervention in the country. That, however doesn't mean you have to support Maduro. Please understand that Venezuela under chavismo isn't a pretty place to live in. Every day, what you take for granted where you live, is a nightmare to obtain properly in Venezuela. Low salaries (It was about $6 a month last time I checked), failing basic services (electricity, running water, gas), food scarcity, insane crime rates, and absurd levels of corruption. Venezuelans deserve to live in a place where everyday routines don't look like battles to be fought and lost. We deserve to live in a place with a bright future, not a post-apocalyptic mess.

Like I said, you can be against a US military intervention (something that hasn't even happened yet), but don't you dare say you support Maduro just to spite the US.
I hope that one day Venezuela will be mostly free of corruption and tyranny, but that is not visible on the horizon. The fact of the matter is that the grouping that constitutes as the face of the opposition just wants to bring the country back to the 90s, and no one evidently wants that, with all the classism and poverty.

The best bet right now is for the Opposition to take the Mexican deal and try to work something out. Put someone that is willing for democracy but won’t privatize for the benefit of foreign powers. Tell me, are there any disillusioned ex-chavismo officials willing to take the reign, like Luisa Marvelia Ortega Díaz?

That wouldn't be the for the best. AMLO's deal, whatever it implies, isn't in the opposition's best interest.

Plenty of "disillusioned" chavistas are more than willing to take the reign: Luisa Ortega Díaz, former Interior Minister Miguel Rodríguez Torres and former PDVSA president Rafael Ramírez are the most notorious of them. The problem is that they are deeply distrusted by the population. The opposition base see them as opportunists who still support Chavez's ways and have no intention of repenting of the actions they did under Chávez, while the chavistas see them as traitors and are unwilling to forgive them. For now, it's unlikely that any ex-chavista ends up being the President or something of the sort.
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PSOL
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« Reply #282 on: May 01, 2019, 11:55:19 AM »

Hi guys. I understand strong opinions for/against a US intervention in the country. That, however doesn't mean you have to support Maduro. Please understand that Venezuela under chavismo isn't a pretty place to live in. Every day, what you take for granted where you live, is a nightmare to obtain properly in Venezuela. Low salaries (It was about $6 a month last time I checked), failing basic services (electricity, running water, gas), food scarcity, insane crime rates, and absurd levels of corruption. Venezuelans deserve to live in a place where everyday routines don't look like battles to be fought and lost. We deserve to live in a place with a bright future, not a post-apocalyptic mess.

Like I said, you can be against a US military intervention (something that hasn't even happened yet), but don't you dare say you support Maduro just to spite the US.
I hope that one day Venezuela will be mostly free of corruption and tyranny, but that is not visible on the horizon. The fact of the matter is that the grouping that constitutes as the face of the opposition just wants to bring the country back to the 90s, and no one evidently wants that, with all the classism and poverty.

The best bet right now is for the Opposition to take the Mexican deal and try to work something out. Put someone that is willing for democracy but won’t privatize for the benefit of foreign powers. Tell me, are there any disillusioned ex-chavismo officials willing to take the reign, like Luisa Marvelia Ortega Díaz?

That wouldn't be the for the best. AMLO's deal, whatever it implies, isn't in the opposition's best interest.

Plenty of "disillusioned" chavistas are more than willing to take the reign: Luisa Ortega Díaz, former Interior Minister Miguel Rodríguez Torres and former PDVSA president Rafael Ramírez are the most notorious of them. The problem is that they are deeply distrusted by the population. The opposition base see them as opportunists who still support Chavez's ways and have no intention of repenting of the actions they did under Chávez, while the chavistas see them as traitors and are unwilling to forgive them. For now, it's unlikely that any ex-chavista ends up being the President or something of the sort.
The reality of the situation means that this is the Roundtable’s best bet to get something. Either go for a compromise or get quashed by Maduro militias, no?
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Computer89
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« Reply #283 on: May 01, 2019, 11:57:03 AM »

The CIA should have been sent especially after the Russians and Chinese directly decided to intervene .

And this is how the people of Venezuela, in addition to having to endure already s**ty conditions, will bear the burn of foreign powers using them as pawns in another proxy war. This is just depressing.


It already happened when Russia and China decided to go over there to stop what was naturally happening.
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LoneStarDem
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« Reply #284 on: May 01, 2019, 12:41:32 PM »

Keeping an eye on the following countries, who could do something on a military scale:

1.) Colombia

2..) Brazil

3.) Ecuador: if they have the balls to do it.

4.) Peru

5.) Chile

6.) Argentina

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Skye
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« Reply #285 on: May 01, 2019, 12:42:07 PM »

Hi guys. I understand strong opinions for/against a US intervention in the country. That, however doesn't mean you have to support Maduro. Please understand that Venezuela under chavismo isn't a pretty place to live in. Every day, what you take for granted where you live, is a nightmare to obtain properly in Venezuela. Low salaries (It was about $6 a month last time I checked), failing basic services (electricity, running water, gas), food scarcity, insane crime rates, and absurd levels of corruption. Venezuelans deserve to live in a place where everyday routines don't look like battles to be fought and lost. We deserve to live in a place with a bright future, not a post-apocalyptic mess.

Like I said, you can be against a US military intervention (something that hasn't even happened yet), but don't you dare say you support Maduro just to spite the US.
I hope that one day Venezuela will be mostly free of corruption and tyranny, but that is not visible on the horizon. The fact of the matter is that the grouping that constitutes as the face of the opposition just wants to bring the country back to the 90s, and no one evidently wants that, with all the classism and poverty.

The best bet right now is for the Opposition to take the Mexican deal and try to work something out. Put someone that is willing for democracy but won’t privatize for the benefit of foreign powers. Tell me, are there any disillusioned ex-chavismo officials willing to take the reign, like Luisa Marvelia Ortega Díaz?

That wouldn't be the for the best. AMLO's deal, whatever it implies, isn't in the opposition's best interest.

Plenty of "disillusioned" chavistas are more than willing to take the reign: Luisa Ortega Díaz, former Interior Minister Miguel Rodríguez Torres and former PDVSA president Rafael Ramírez are the most notorious of them. The problem is that they are deeply distrusted by the population. The opposition base see them as opportunists who still support Chavez's ways and have no intention of repenting of the actions they did under Chávez, while the chavistas see them as traitors and are unwilling to forgive them. For now, it's unlikely that any ex-chavista ends up being the President or something of the sort.
The reality of the situation means that this is the Roundtable’s best bet to get something. Either go for a compromise or get quashed by Maduro militias, no?

It isn't as simple as "get squashed by Maduro's militias". The military has shown signs of fracture, given the recent developments. Even before that, Maduro did not dare to touch Guaidó because of threats from the US.

For that to happen, Maduro would have to successfully purge the military and take control of the situation. Only then, if they decide that the threats from the Trump administration are mere bluffs, they will move on Guaidó. But we'll have to wait and see what happens.
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Computer89
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« Reply #286 on: May 01, 2019, 01:17:35 PM »

The CIA The marines/Air Force should have been sent especially after the Russians and Chinese directly decided to intervene .

Um no its the CIA's job to deal with situations like this , sending in the military will only make it seem like a US led invasion rather than than the US just aiding Guaidó in his attempt to remove Maduro
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Omega21
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« Reply #287 on: May 01, 2019, 01:23:49 PM »
« Edited: May 01, 2019, 01:32:38 PM by Omega21 »

The CIA The marines/Air Force should have been sent especially after the Russians and Chinese directly decided to intervene .

And what should they exactly do once they get there, shoot up the Venezuelan soldiers?

I'm sure the people would really appreciate a large scale invasion by a foreign country, and not at all back Maduro as pictures of dead soldiers spread (they are all still Venezuelan) lol
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Computer89
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« Reply #288 on: May 01, 2019, 01:24:34 PM »

The CIA should have been sent especially after the Russians and Chinese directly decided to intervene .

And this is how the people of Venezuela, in addition to having to endure already s**ty conditions, will bear the burn of foreign powers using them as pawns in another proxy war. This is just depressing.


It already happened when Russia and China decided to go over there to stop what was naturally happening.

And should they do what exactly once they get there, shoot up the Venezuelan soldiers?

I'm sure the people would really appreciate a large scale invasion by a foreign country, and not at all back Maduro as pictures of dead soldiers spread (they are all still Venezuelan) lol

I said the CIA not the military lol
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Omega21
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« Reply #289 on: May 01, 2019, 01:26:02 PM »

The CIA should have been sent especially after the Russians and Chinese directly decided to intervene .

And this is how the people of Venezuela, in addition to having to endure already s**ty conditions, will bear the burn of foreign powers using them as pawns in another proxy war. This is just depressing.


It already happened when Russia and China decided to go over there to stop what was naturally happening.

And should they do what exactly once they get there, shoot up the Venezuelan soldiers?

I'm sure the people would really appreciate a large scale invasion by a foreign country, and not at all back Maduro as pictures of dead soldiers spread (they are all still Venezuelan) lol

I said the CIA not the military lol

Yeah sorry, I wanted to quote SirWoodbury
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HillGoose
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« Reply #290 on: May 01, 2019, 03:26:12 PM »
« Edited: May 01, 2019, 05:38:12 PM by Blind Jaunting »


So I'm guessing you're not going to get in on Erik Prince's IPO? I'm like, beyond stoked if that becomes a real thing. It's gonna be lit.

Anyway, you might feel differently about "Randism" if you grew up in a collectivist community where no one liked you and would have killed you given the chance. Which is how democratically-minded Venezuelans feel, I'm sure.
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« Reply #291 on: May 01, 2019, 03:58:57 PM »
« Edited: May 01, 2019, 05:38:31 PM by Blind Jaunting »

It's funny how Guedo or whatever his name is actually in reality is a social democrat. I don't know my rose clutchers who like Aunt Ayn, but whatever.
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dead0man
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« Reply #292 on: May 01, 2019, 04:54:09 PM »
« Edited: May 01, 2019, 05:38:50 PM by Blind Jaunting »

here is some advice, you should read up a little on a subject next time you want to post, you won't look so foolish like you do here.
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Frozen Sky Ever Why
ShadowOfTheWave
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« Reply #293 on: May 01, 2019, 05:05:07 PM »
« Edited: May 01, 2019, 05:44:00 PM by Blind Jaunting »

here is some advice, you should read up a little on a subject next time you want to post, you won't look so foolish like you do here.

"Read up" where? Let me guess, the same lying media that sold us Iraq/Libya/Syria, ect.?
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dead0man
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« Reply #294 on: May 01, 2019, 05:10:12 PM »

Seems the Venezuelan people may have at least temporarily defeated the Randian enemies of humanity.
here is some advice, you should read up a little on a subject next time you want to post, you won't look so foolish like you do here.

"Read up" where? Let me guess, the same lying media that sold us Iraq/Libya/Syria, ect.?
oh I'm not going to tell you what media to pay attention to, I'm not sure why you thought I would.....I don't know what media was telling you that Guaidó was a Randian, but stay away from them, they're making you look silly.  Pretty much any other bit of media should be fine...unless you go looking for dummies again....I'd suggest not doing that.
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Frozen Sky Ever Why
ShadowOfTheWave
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« Reply #295 on: May 01, 2019, 05:12:26 PM »
« Edited: May 01, 2019, 05:44:07 PM by Blind Jaunting »

here is some advice, you should read up a little on a subject next time you want to post, you won't look so foolish like you do here.

"Read up" where? Let me guess, the same lying media that sold us Iraq/Libya/Syria, ect.?
oh I'm not going to tell you what media to pay attention to, I'm not sure why you thought I would.....I don't know what media was telling you that Guaidó was a Randian, but stay away from them, they're making you look silly.  Pretty much any other bit of media should be fine...unless you go looking for dummies again....I'd suggest not doing that.

I wasn't referring to the puppet Guaidó, only his puppeteers like Bolton.
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dead0man
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« Reply #296 on: May 01, 2019, 05:24:59 PM »

what evidence is there that Guaidó is a puppet of someone like Bolton?  He seems to have become active in 2007, do you think Bolton was puppeting him then, or maybe the Obama administration started the puppet?  Or did it start later?  What's the puppet strings?  money? does Bolton have Guaidó's wife in a basement somewhere?  "promises" of support?  Is this just a "gut" thing for you?
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #297 on: May 01, 2019, 05:44:54 PM »

Do not repost posts that had been moderated, K?
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Computer89
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« Reply #298 on: May 01, 2019, 05:50:58 PM »
« Edited: May 01, 2019, 05:54:21 PM by Old School Republican »

what evidence is there that Guaidó is a puppet of someone like Bolton?  He seems to have become active in 2007, do you think Bolton was puppeting him then, or maybe the Obama administration started the puppet?  Or did it start later?  What's the puppet strings?  money? does Bolton have Guaidó's wife in a basement somewhere?  "promises" of support?  Is this just a "gut" thing for you?

Remember many posters on the far left prefer Castro to Reagan

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=253475.0


Along with Bernie as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phTKpMh5jQI

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Co-Chair Bagel23
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« Reply #299 on: May 01, 2019, 07:51:44 PM »

here is some advice, you should read up a little on a subject next time you want to post, you won't look so foolish like you do here.

"Read up" where? Let me guess, the same lying media that sold us Iraq/Libya/Syria, ect.?

here is some advice, you should read up a little on a subject next time you want to post, you won't look so foolish like you do here.

"Read up" where? Let me guess, the same lying media that sold us Iraq/Libya/Syria, ect.?
oh I'm not going to tell you what media to pay attention to, I'm not sure why you thought I would.....I don't know what media was telling you that Guaidó was a Randian, but stay away from them, they're making you look silly.  Pretty much any other bit of media should be fine...unless you go looking for dummies again....I'd suggest not doing that.

I wasn't referring to the puppet Guaidó, only his puppeteers like Bolton.

Hear hear!
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